The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    So I am hoping to pick up a nice jazz box and have narrowed it down to these models: Gibson ES-175, ES-775, L4 or Gibson Tal Farlow.

    I've been watching lots of Dutchbopper's videos to get an idea of the sounds of each and listening for differences. Unfortunately there aren't many videos of the ES-775.

    I don't really have an opportunity to play them. The nearest shop that has an ES-175 and Tal Farlow is 3 hours away.

    Any thoughts, info, opinions, sound clips, videos to help me decide would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by geese_com; 01-20-2017 at 10:07 PM.

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  3. #2

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    Perhaps the 3-hour trip would be worth making, in this case?

  4. #3

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    Difficult not to be sold on the Tal watching DB's videos, but it is the only 25.5 scale instrument of your list.
    Thinking about it, there is a very nice L4 for sale on the forum at a real good price.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-ster
    Perhaps the 3-hour trip would be worth making, in this case?
    This, and play every other archtop you can get your hands on. You may end up loving a guitar that's not one of the models you think you want.

  6. #5

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    Another trick question eh?

    I own a Tal, and 175, if the price were equal and the Tal was ratty and the 175 were pristine, the Tal would make it into my house any day.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by geese_com
    [Which one to buy: ] ... Gibson ES-175, ES-775, L4 or Gibson Tal Farlow. ...
    Three plywood guitars, 1 spruce/mahogany guitar (L4)
    Three 16" guitars, one 17" guitar (Tal Farlow)
    Three 24.75" scale guitars, one 25.5" guitar (Tal Farlow)
    Some rosewood fingerboards, some ebony
    Neck materials can vary on some models depending on year of manufacture, can be mahogany or maple

    So since the models cited by the OP vary so much, it's difficult to know what the OP is looking for

    I wouldn't buy any of the Gibsons myself. Depending on budget - seems to be around the mid 4 figures - I'd look at Heritage, Sadowsky, and Collings, possibly among others. (I have a Heritage Sweet 16 and a Gibson ES335, so I am not unbiased.)

  8. #7

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    Who are your favorite players and what do they play?!

    Acc'd to Joe Vinikow's site, www.archtop.com the 775 was a carved top maple guitar. It's a little bit of an outlier in that the model was only produced for a short time (3 yrs. I think.) Pretty rare, and don't let the fact that the 175 is "less fancy" sway you: Many people prefer the sound of a 175 to anything else.

    Sometimes hard to tell from YT clips, but the 775 sounds a little less round and full, than any of the others. But if you can play one, and it speaks to you, that is worth a lot.

    Andy Brown plays a Tal, and he has some lengthy YT clips that give you a good idea what they sound like. Big, big sound but it has that drier, slightly compressed laminate sound, which to some people is heavenly. (I like it myself.)

    Check out Jon Dalton's clips to see how big an L4-CES can sound (Jon Dalton Trio "Kandy Kanes").

    Assuming they are sound individual instruments, these are all "top shelf", pro grade choices that wouldn't have to apologize to anybody in any musical setting.

    Good luck.
    Last edited by goldenwave77; 01-21-2017 at 06:58 AM.

  9. #8
    Dutchbopper Guest
    I'd narrow it down to a choice between the 175 ad the Tal.

    The 775 is a fancy 175 with some weird appointments that do not belong on it (ebony fingerboard, deep cutaway and some fancy cosmetics). I don't see the point of that model, it's a bit of a marketing trick.

    The L4 is a guitar that does not appeal to me much sound wise. To me, it's neither fish nor fowl. It does not sound like an L5 and not like a 175. I realise this is a personal thing. It's probably a very good guitar but I'd go for an L5 if I wanted a carved top with a routed in pup. Much more character in the sound.

    Both my Tal and 175 sound great. The Tal sounds bigger though and very authentic. I think it's the most succesful signature Gibson ever built and offers unbeatable price /quality if you buy a used one. For the same price, always go for a Tal. If you can handle the bigger scale.

    All this very personal of course but since you asked for that ...

    Regards,

    DB
    Last edited by Dutchbopper; 01-20-2017 at 06:32 PM.

  10. #9

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    I totally agree with DB that the choice should be between the Tal and the 175. The L-4CES is a solid topped guitar that will feed back in a live situation with a loud drummer and both have an "unusual" tone profile. An L-5 is the right choice if you want the sound of a carved guitar, and only then if you have some other jazzbox for the loud live stuff (I am assuming that public gigs are the goal).

    I prefer the tone and feel of the 175 (probably why I own two of them) to the Tal (probably why I do not own a Tal). If I was after a brighter tone and liked the feel of the long scale, the Tal would be my choice.

    The best solution? Buy a 175 and a Tal. Play both for a bit and sell the one you like least.
    Last edited by Stringswinger; 01-20-2017 at 07:03 PM.

  11. #10
    The two of the four that I am really interested in are the Tal & ES-175. The 775 and L4 are pretty much just on there because they are fancier looking compared to an ES-175.

    My favorite players are Joe Pass, Tal Farlow, and Pat Martino.

    Dave's Guitar in La Crosse, WI actually has both in stock, but as I said it is 3 hours away from me. Maybe I will have to plan a trip sometime.

    I am not in a rush to pick one up so I will probably try to find one used.

    As for scale length, I am comfortable with either. I am playing a Tele right now and one of my other guitars is a Strandberg with fanned frets.

    Thanks for all the comments so far everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenwave77
    Who are your favorite players and what do they play?!

    Acc'd to Joe Vinikow's site, www.archtop.com the 775 was a carved top maple guitar. It's a little bit of an outlier in that the model was only produced for a short time (3 yrs. I think.) Pretty rare, and don't let the fact that the 175 is "less fancy" sway you: Many people prefer the sound of a 175 to anything else.

    Sometimes hard to tell from YT clips, but the 775 sounds a little less round and full, than any of the others. But if you can play one, and it speaks to you, that is worth a lot.

    Andy Brown plays a Tal, and he has some lengthy YT clips that give you a good idea what they sound like. Big, big sound but it has that drier, slightly compressed laminate sound, which to some people is heavenly. (I like it myself.)

    Check out Jon Dalton's clips to see how big an L4-CES can sound.

    Assuming they are sound individual instruments, these are all "top shelf", pro grade choices that wouldn't have to apologize to anybody in any musical setting.

    Good luck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    I'd narrow it down to a choice between the 175 ad the Tal.

    The 775 is a fancy 175 with some weird appointments that do not belong on it (ebony fingerboard, deep cutaway and some fancy cosmetics). I don't see the point of that model, it's a bit of a marketing trick.

    The L4 is a guitar that does not appeal to me much sound wise. To me, it's neither fish nor fowl. It does not sound like an L5 and not like a 175. I realise this is a personal thing. It's probably a very good guitar but I'd go for an L5 if I wanted a carved top with a routed in pup. Much more character in the sound.

    Both my Tal and 175 sound great. The Tal sounds bigger though and very authentic. I think it's the most succesful signature Gibson ever built and offers unbeatable price /quality if you buy a used one. For the same price, always go for a Tal. If you can handle the bigger scale.

    All this very personal of course but since you asked for that ...

    Regards,

    DB
    Last edited by geese_com; 01-20-2017 at 10:08 PM.

  12. #11

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    Dave's is a great place to check these things out. La Crosse is fun, the scenery around there is great and it's worth the drive. If you're driving down from the Twin Cities, stop at the brewpub in Reed's Landing for the shrimp and grits. Their beer is good too.

  13. #12

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    175

    ..duh
    ; )

  14. #13

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    MHO

    I think your choices come down to the L-4 & the Tal.

    I owned a '60's single p/u 175, and 30 years later bought an L-4 CES. Had I played the L-4 first I'd have never bought the 175.

    Any 175 is always going to sound like the particular 175 it is -- and you'll never be able to dial in any other sound.
    But if you buy the L4 CES, you can easily dial in a 175 sound, but also get a lot closer to the sound of an L-5 for a lot less money. As far as feedback, I think if you're at loud volume levels, the 175 & L-4 will have very similar tendencies. And if you're smart enough to avoid 175 feedback you'll avoid any L-4 feedback too. And in the meantime, you'll get a lot more sound to work with. Hint - ' better sound '.

    My bottom line - -the market loves 175's, and doesn't like L-4's as much. So, for what you get in an L-4, being on the right side of the market, should make that 175 vs L-4 decision a lot easier.
    I looked at my own experience with the 175 vs L-4, and it's like that tv ad: " I could've had a V-8 ".

    The Tal portion gets you into some other differences - - size, scale, etc.

    And Dave's in LaCrosse is absolutely worth a 3 hour drive !!

    Again MHO. And good luck !

  15. #14

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    IMHO I would go with the L4 for my style playing. You need to play them to decide.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  16. #15

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    I prefer a 16" body and 24.75 scale length, so for me it would be between the L4 and 175. Nothing against 175s, but the one L4CES I've tried was incredible. I also tried an early oval hole acoustic L4 which was really nice, in a parlor guitar sort of way. So, if you're offering to buy me a guitar, I'll take an L4 please. Either of them would do.

    John

  17. #16

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    It really comes down to what you play and what feels comfortable in your hands.
    Buy the Tal if you really want an L5 and you can't afford it. Buy the 175 if you can't swing an L4 and you want a shorter scale, smaller guitar. Buy a 165 if you want the 175 and are short a couple of bucks and you have no need for a bridge pickup.
    Only you know what will feel good in your hands. Both guitars are wonderful and YOU will make beautiful music with either one.
    Buying a guitar because you were Listening to what someone else sounds like playing a guitar is kinda like buying a Chevy because Jeff Gordon won a lot of races driving one.
    You need to make the call. Luckily for you, you can't go wrong with either one!
    Joe D

  18. #17
    I actually went to college in La Crosse, so I have been to Dave's way too many times to count. After I moved away after college, I went back after a couple years and one of the salespeople asked me "Where have you been? You haven't been in for a long time."

    I might have to schedule a trip to La Crosse in a couple months to check out the Tal, ES-175, and L4. Right now, I am leaning towards the Tal, the ES-175, then L4.
    Last edited by geese_com; 01-20-2017 at 10:28 PM.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max405
    It really comes down to what you play and what feels comfortable in your hands.
    Joe D
    Says it all.

  20. #19

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    I think asking other folks opinions on what guitar to buy is like asking "which girl should I marry?".

  21. #20

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    I'm assuming your cool with 25.5 scale and 17 lower bout vs 24.75 scale and 16 lower bout equally. The Tal and 175 are very different in that regard.

    Three hours each way is nothing. I've done it numerous times. Just make a nice day trip out of it. If you come home with something you really love you'll quickly forget about the drive.

    Here's AB making a Tal sound about as good as I've heard (for my taste)



    He also plays an older/modern 175 if you search Andy Brown.

    There's so many incarnations of the 175 since 1949 it's hard to advise you on that. What year is the one you're considering?

    I agree with DB the L4CES is neither fish nor fowl. IMO, YMMV, etc
    Last edited by teleboli; 01-21-2017 at 01:13 AM.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis D
    (...) But if you buy the L4 CES, you can easily dial in a 175 sound, but also get a lot closer to the sound of an L-5 for a lot less money (...)
    This is interesting. Many say this but never tell, how do You dial the ES175 from a L4? Vol 8 tone 6?

    And then they say too that every version of ES175 sounds different. So which of them can You dial from a L4?

    My experiences with hollowbodies are limited (ES165 & ES175) so I would gladly hear.

    For the OP I would recommend the ES175 anyday, but that's only because I have no experience with others.

  23. #22
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Herbie
    This is interesting. Many say this but never tell, how do You dial the ES175 from a L4? Vol 8 tone 6?

    And then they say too that every version of ES175 sounds different. So which of them can You dial from a L4?

    My experiences with hollowbodies are limited (ES165 & ES175) so I would gladly hear.

    For the OP I would recommend the ES175 anyday, but that's only because I have no experience with others.
    I don't think you can really "dial in" other guitar models. At least, I have never been able to do that. I hate using tone knobs anyway. I usually play with all knobs open. I don't see an l4 or l5 sounding like a 175 with a tone knob correction. You get a muffled L4 or L5 at best IMHO.

    I know this player with an L5 that always turns down the tone knob. Does not make any sense to me. The guitar sounds like nothing anymore. Not like an L5 and not like a 175. It sounds well, just bad. Any 500 bucks guitar with the tone knob way down would sound like that. Why play an L5 in the first place then?

    DB
    Last edited by Dutchbopper; 01-21-2017 at 07:44 AM.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    I don't think you can really "dial in" other guitar models. At least, I have never been able to do that. I hate using tone knobs anyway. I usually play with all knobs open. I don't see an l4 or l5 sounding like a 175 with a tone knob correction. You get a muffled L4 or L5 at best IMHO.

    I know this player with an L5 that always turns down the tone knob. Does not make any sense to me. The guitar sounds like nothing anymore. Not like an L5 and not like a 175. It sounds well, just bad. Any 500 bucks guitar with the tone knob way down would sound like that. Why play an L5 in the first place then?

    DB

    That is exactly my point about how 175's sound. That's what they all have in common. And that is all you'll ever get out of every one of them. A standard 175 with tone set anywhere, is a ' muffled ' L-4 or L-5 .

    So, if you think you may ever want to have a different sound from a 175 size guitar - - maybe a solid top ( L-4 ) would work for you. Then if you ever get really homesick for a 175 sound you can just dial down the tone knob.

    Oh yeah - - and in most cases you don't have to pay more for this feature, because the used market still likes 175's.

    (( " X " dollars for a Solid top L-4 , vs " X " Plus dollars " for a laminated top 175 , for me is a no-brainer. ))


    YMMV, and of course MHO.

  25. #24
    Dutchbopper Guest
    [QUOTE=Dennis D;733113]That is exactly my point about how 175's sound. That's what they all have in common. And that is all you'll ever get out of every one of them. A standard 175 with tone set anywhere, is a ' muffled ' L-4 or L-5 =QUOTE]

    Man o man, you are dead wrong there. There's people that actually prefer the 175 to an L4 or L5 because of the nature of the sound. And I am one of them.

    You must have missed about 1000 discussions on this particular subject here.

    DB

  26. #25

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    The problem with this selection process is likely to be one of uniformity. A GREAT 175 is a dream, but not all are either. I know, I almost gave up on 175's due to this.

    I've played few TF's but every one was consistently excellent.

    That said, I wonder why when an OP asks about specific brands and models, some feel the need to chime in on their own fave model other brand which adds no light to the subject. Clearly the OP wants info on specific wants and needs, and does not need info on myriad other makes and models. Swaying someone from a Ford to a Chevy in a post is as unlikely as doing it on a guitar.