Gibson ES-175 vs ES-775 vs L-4 vs Gibson Tal Farlow?

[agentsmith]

L4s are just as prone to duds as any other guitar.

And an L4 just cannot sound like a 175 so if you like the sound of Joe Pass Joy Spring you will not get that on an L4. You can get some pseudo Wes tones on the L4 but frankly, you'd be better off buying a used Heritage Eagle or Sweet 16 which you can get for around $2k or less. A used 175 you can net for $2k. A used L4, $3k. So not really the same price.

The OP asked 'which to buy', and an L-5 was not mentioned.....

..my intent was just to help someone......I'm pretty sure an L-5 prospect / buyer is not even considering a 175....

....so again, if a 175 is on your radar and the L-4 is also one you're going to consider, good !...I just believe the L-4 will give you more sound and tone options down the road, in case you ever tire of however that particular 175 sounds.....and will give it to you for the same money.....

...and unlike comments here about 175's, I'm real sure I've never heard anyone say about an L-4 : " I've played a lot of them, and a lot of them are duds ", or " It took me years and trying out dozens to find a good one . "



...MHO.....

[agentsmith]

No, not at all. The Tal I had was a custom shop and the nut was cut so that the B string was about 50% closer to the E string than it should have been. How that passed QC for even a standard level instrument, muchless a custom shop one is beyond me...So much for custom shop quality.

Maybe the fact an L4 like a Tal is a custom shop instrument might help in being more consistent, however not that it prevents QC from dropping the ball once in while with cases of tail raise/overpleking, badly cut nut and so on.

[Dennis D]

And an L4 just cannot sound like a 175 so if you like the sound of Joe Pass Joy Spring you will not get that on an L4.

...and again, the OP never asked for that either......


.......but I would be willing to bet that if I handed you an L4CES, with $1000. on the line, you could nail that JP sound.....

[geese_com]

Thanks for all the info and comments everyone. It looks like it jump started some good debates. I think I will have to wait until my trip to Dave's in early March to really help me decide. That is unless a killer deal pops up on one of the guitars on my list and I will just buy it blindly in the hopes that I won't lose too much if I decide I do not like it and decide to resell it.

[GNAPPI]

Maybe the fact an L4 like a Tal is a custom shop instrument might help in being more consistent, however not that it prevents QC from dropping the ball once in while with cases of tail raise/overpleking, badly cut nut and so on.

Amen to that.

While not a QC assembly line problem it certainly was avoidable.The clear coat on the head of my Tal has lifted in spots, no biggie it's a few hundred buck fix if it bothered me. What DOES bug me is Gibson's reply to my note about it and other issues...

Dear Sir or Ms,

I'm writing about a "Tal" that I just bought with some "oddities" about it that I would like set to rest while I can still get a refund if there is a problem with it.

1. The serial number on the head matches the label but the imprint is light (see attached pic)
2. There is no "Made in USA" under the serial number on the head.
3. There is no strap button on the neck heel or upper bout
4. The Gibson logo on the head has an odd (clear coat) peeling effect on it (see attached pic)

Please evaluate the pics and let me know if these are just irregularities or something else?

Gibson's reply:
Thanks for writing!! That’s a beauty!! There are no oddities that I can see. Everything you mentioned is normal for this model.

[vinnyv1k]

I am seeing everyone's opinion and seeing truth on all sides. I think I will just read all the future posts on this one.


Dennis thank you buddy ! I am back home and recovering. Should be able to start playing guitar again in a month or so.

[Jabberwocky]

...And yes, don't forget I studied with Joe Pass so I know something about his tone...

And I shook Joe Pass' hand in the Summer of 1993 at the Blackstone Hotel in Chicago as I did the George Michael (RIP, George; nobody mentioned that you passed last Christmas) gay-man thing and cocked my head to the right when in the presence of greatness and said, "Hello." I am not gay- not that there's anything wrong with that - but sometimes these mannerisms crop up. Influence of big sisters, I guess.

Point is, now I know I am one degree removed from agentsmith! Whoopee!

[Dennis D]

Dennis thank you buddy ! I am back home and recovering. Should be able to start playing guitar again in a month or so.

Vinny, glad to hear that !!


All the best !!

Dennis

[Greentone]

You will get outstanding jazz tones from any of the four above-mentioned Gibson guitars. At least, that has been my experience. If you really dig 50s/60s dry, bebop style (think Tal Farlow, Barney Kessel, Jim Hall, Herb Ellis, Joe Pass, etc.), it is hard to imagine better guitars than either the 25-1/2" scale Tal Farlow or the 24-3/4" scale ES-175. At one point years ago--after selling a vintage, custom color Stratocaster--I was flush with cash. I had the money to buy any production archtop from the Super 400 on down. So, I tried everything. Ultimately, it came down to a vintage ES-175 because I really dug getting those Jim Hall, Herb Ellis, Joe Pass sounds through my Polytone amp. I played that guitar for over 30 years.

Now, I play 25-1/5" scale archtops. I'd probably get the Tal today. Still, there is nothing about the 175 do be disparaged. It is a great jazz machine. Comfortable? OMG! I would rate the 175 among the very most playable guitars of all time.

[Max405]

Thats a great picture.
Beautiful room.
Joe D

Well that makes at least 2 of us here

[vinnyv1k]

You will get outstanding jazz tones from any of the four above-mentioned Gibson guitars. At least, that has been my experience. If you really dig 50s/60s dry, bebop style (think Tal Farlow, Barney Kessel, Jim Hall, Herb Ellis, Joe Pass, etc.), it is hard to imagine better guitars than either the 25-1/2" scale Tal Farlow or the 24-3/4" scale ES-175. At one point years ago--after selling a vintage, custom color Stratocaster--I was flush with cash. I had the money to buy any production archtop from the Super 400 on down. So, I tried everything. Ultimately, it came down to a vintage ES-175 because I really dug getting those Jim Hall, Herb Ellis, Joe Pass sounds through my Polytone amp. I played that guitar for over 30 years.

Now, I play 25-1/5" scale archtops. I'd probably get the Tal today. Still, there is nothing about the 175 do be disparaged. It is a great jazz machine. Comfortable? OMG! I would rate the 175 among the very most playable guitars of all time.

Another Amen brother !

[GNAPPI]

My house looked like that the day I moved in, how time flies.

Well that makes at least 2 of us here

[silverfoxx]

Vinlander
I think you'll find more of us in the woodwork.

[Herbie]

Thanks for all the info and comments everyone. It looks like it jump started some good debates. I think I will have to wait until my trip to Dave's in early March to really help me decide. That is unless a killer deal pops up on one of the guitars on my list and I will just buy it blindly in the hopes that I won't lose too much if I decide I do not like it and decide to resell it.

March!!? So far away!?! Before that You have plenty of time to buy a reasonably priced ES-175 or L4 online and check it out. If one of the Dave's guitars is better, make a trade. If not, keep it!

[2bornot2bop]

Gibson Tal Farlow for my money. And for ES175 lovers the TF gets as thunky as a '175 for my money.

[agentsmith]

The Tal is a much brighter and more modern sounding guitar. Also much heavier. Dick Onstenk and I have discussed this and we both felt the same way. It's a great guitar though.

Gibson Tal Farlow for my money. And for ES175 lovers the TF gets as thunky as a '175 for my money.

[NSJ]

My teacher was very close to Joe, one of Joe's very best friends, since the early 1960s and a pallbearer at his funeral. He knew him better than most people (Joe had two first cousins who lived in Chicago and the four of them would hang out a lot together, and have a grand time, as only Italian-Americans can.

He told me a couple stories about Joe and guitars: (1) Joe loved to pick up shit guitars and play them. One time, he couldn't take it, and just told Joe: "godamn it, put that shit guitar down, it sounds like it has the tonal value of a godamn ukelele. !"

I asked him why Joe rarely gigged with his D.'A. He responded: "are you kidding? He wouldn't let that guitar out of his house!"

I surmised by this comment that Joe really loved his D.'A.

[Stringswinger]

My teacher was very close to Joe, one of Joe's very best friends, since the early 1960s and a pallbearer at his funeral. He knew him better than most people (Joe had two first cousins who lived in Chicago and the four of them would hang out a lot together, and have a grand time, as only Italian-Americans can.

He told me a couple stories about Joe and guitars: (1) Joe loved to pick up shit guitars and play them. One time, he couldn't take it, and just told Joe: "godamn it, put that shit guitar down, it sounds like it has the tonal value of a godamn ukelele. !"

I asked him why Joe rarely gigged with his D.'A. He responded: "are you kidding? He wouldn't let that guitar out of his house!"

I surmised by this comment that Joe really loved his D.'A.

A few years ago I spoke with Joe Pass' adopted son (Joe Pass Jr.) about his dad's guitars. Joe had two D'Aquistos, a carved top and an electric. The carved top was sold to a collector to pay for Joe's medical expenses and the electric remained with Joe jr. The 62 ES-175 was nowhere to be found. There were two Gibson prototypes that Joe was playing in his last years, one was given to Joe's widow and is in the possession of John Pisano and the other was returned to Gibson. I am unsure of what happened to Joe's Ibanez.

[Max405]

The things I love about my Tal are the neck, the comfort and the fact that it doesn’t really sound like anything else I’ve ever owned. The neck is basically an L5 neck, without the cupids bow. It is sized perfectly for my hand, is elegant in its appearance and it inspires me. Like the L5 neck, it doesn’t react to seasonal changes like the 175 neck does. I have yet to have to tweak the truss rod in my Tal. The 17” body and the 3” depth are the heavenly dimensions of the beloved Johnny Smith. Need I say more..
The sound of the Tal is very difficult to explain. To me, it’s more subdued and its not as “acoustic” as my 175. In a band setting it is a more substantial feeling and sounding guitar. Its sound is more focused, if you will. Therefore it cuts through better, for me anyway. I don't do many live shows anymore but of the 3-4 I did last year, my Tal came with me every time.

[rpjazzguitar]

Others have provided great information about the features of the various choices.

I'll add only this.

The Tal is my all time favorite guitar to look at. Tal, who was a graphic artist (a sign painter) designed it and I think it's beautiful.

So, I'd pick the Tal.

Although I'm serious about that, I will add some thoughts about sound and feel.

Not everybody switches effortlessly from a 24 3/4 to a 25 1/2 scale (although neck dimensions can change things). So, the Tal is going to feel a good deal different from the 175. That can be a deal breaker.

Personally, I am not a major fan of the 175 sound, at least when I play it. When Jim Hall plays it (with P90), I'm a fan.

At this point, I don't think I'd buy a guitar without a return privilege. I've made enough mistakes to understand that I can't tell anything from trying out a piece of equipment in a store.

[Max405]

Damn I forgot that. That's why I bought mine in the 1st place. Then how great it is took over. It is a looker for sure. Good one.

[Bluedawg]

Now I want a Tal ....

[vinlander]

They can still be available for a good price despite all the love we give them here and I am not talking about the overpriced ones from Japan.
"A close to perfect" in Natural from 1995 sold on Ebay for 2700 last december, that was a steal
1995 Gibson Tal Farlow w/case | eBay

[Max405]

Your killing me..
It would be soooo cool if they made a WesTal. One pickup. Right where the neck ends.. In Viceroy Brown.
Booty..

[Woody Sound]

Who are your favorite players and what do they play?!

Acc'd to Joe Vinikow's site, www.archtop.com the 775 was a carved top maple guitar.

I'm pretty sure it's just flamey laminate, but ICBW.