Jazz Guitar Scale Length Too Short?

**JerzyPeter** · 08-02-2009, 07:31 PM

I have just bought Ibanez PM 35 (Pat Metheny Signature, $1000). This is my first jazz guitar. The guitar is very comfortable. After playing for couple of days I found that I cannot play some chords, e.g.: Dominant 9 with b5 in high positions.

Let's use Eb9b5:
x65665 (fingers: x21341 (bare on the 5th fret))
This is not a problem. But when I move this shape up to the 9th-10th fret to play G9b5 my fingers don't fit and I can't play this chord. Not to mention Bb9b5 at the 12-13 fret. And I have small fingers!!!

What I found this guitar has 24.75" scale. I have three other guitars: Fender, Ovation and Burswood acoustic guitar and all of them have them have 25.5" scale. On those guitars I can play the mentioned chords above including Bb9b5 at 12-13 fret without any problem. Of course the frets on Ibanez are spaced more closely comparing to 25.5' scale length and that’s the problem.

The salesman in the store told me that all jazz guitars have short scale length and I have to use some other inversions of the chords unless I buy custom Gibson for 3000$ that has longer scale (25.5").

I really was shocked. Is it true that jazz guitar have shorter scale length? I don't know what to do. Live with guitar use other inversions of chords for those that cannot be played, or buy another guitar???

Can anybody give me some advice? I would really appreciate any help and comments.

Jerzy

**dh82c** · 08-02-2009, 08:44 PM

I am new at this so take what I say with a grain of salt.
I have read several places that the longer scale length (25.5) is more harmonically rich. Having played fenders for many years I am also accustomed to this. As a result, when I set out for a jazzbox that was one of my criteria. There is no shortage or 25.5 scale guitars. Mine is an epiphone emperor regent. Cost me 500$ used on ebay. You dont have to spend 3000$ for a 25.5 in guitar.. even new Eastwoods are less than that.

Give your guitar a chance. If after giving it an honest go you REALLY dont like the feel then you CAN find something longerscale. Understand that a longer scale also affects the tone string tension and overall feel so while a different guitar might play better.. it might not give you the sound and feel you are looking for.

**bluemood** · 08-02-2009, 10:18 PM

I say false what the sales man said ... The PM 35 is a take off of a Gibson ES 175 which can be use for jazz as all guitar but again IMO used more for blues ...Most jazzboxes are 25 1/2" scale Gibson L5 ECT...The two guitars that I play the most are Hofner Very thin Classic(My jazzguitar)and Fender Strat (all else )both 25 1/2" scale.

**fep** · 08-02-2009, 11:55 PM

The affect you're are talking about should make no more than a 1 fret difference.

In other words if you're able to fret that chord on the 12th fret but not be able to fret it on 13th fret of the 25.5" guitar you should be able to able to fret that chord form on the 11th of the 24.75" neck.

The distance between the 10th and 11th fret on a 24.75" guitar is greater than the distance between the 11th and 12th fret of a 25.5" guitar. Measure it yourself and you'll see.

So that's not enough to get worried about in my opinion.

It's sounds like there is some other reason for your difficulty... perhaps the shape of the neck, or the width of the neck etc.

**hot ford coupe** · 08-03-2009, 12:42 AM

Your salesman is full of (&%^$. He knows nothing about jaz guitar. He just doesn't want you to bring the guitar back and mess up his sales record. I have 4 guitars all together and two have 25.5 " scale and 2 have 24.75" scale. I've owned 25.5" scale fenders and got great music out of them. I also had a Byrdland and a Rickenbacker that had a 23 and something inch scale and I hated them. My fingers kept on getting tangled up. My advice is if you is to go back to the store and get a longer scale instrument. I would talk to the manager and if he isn't helpful at all, then I'd go to the Better Business Bureau. All jazz guitars are not made with the shorter scale. Tell them your friends at jazzguitar.be said so.

**Fidelcaster** · 08-03-2009, 02:14 AM

Hi. I think fep is right. I'll just mention another affordable guitar with a long scale, the Yamaha AEX1500, which is 25,25" (it's the only guitar with this scale I know of). IIRC, I paid 1200 euros for it.

**Bunyip** · 08-03-2009, 04:05 AM

My lefty Agile Cool Cat Prestige has a 25.25 scale.

**Jureczek** · 08-03-2009, 09:09 AM

The neck is slim, but the width of the nut is 4.3" like all my guitars.

Here you can read the specs:
Ibanez :: Hollow Guitars :: PM35

Jerzy

**Funkwire** · 08-03-2009, 09:13 AM

I think fep is on to something when he says maybe the width or shape of the neck is what is causing your problem. Going from 24.75" to 25.5" is not that big of a difference. I have several guitars in both scale lengths and don't notice any difficulty going from longer to shorter.

And you can absolutely find PLENTY of jazz boxes in 25.5" scale for far less than the figure quoted to you by the sales person.

**derek** · 08-03-2009, 10:46 AM

Many have pointed out the variety of guitars that have both scales. Compare a Les Paul to a Strat or Tele, since most of us have played both. The tension on the strings of the LP are looser, sloppier than the Fenders. This is due to the scale length.

The frets are a bit closer together on the LP compared to the Fenders, but for me where this really shows up is above the 12th fret. I have large hands, and find it more difficult to fret notes and chords on a shorter scale instrument above the octave.

Keep playing different guitars and find one that fits you best. Good luck and happy hunting.

**JerzyPeter** · 08-06-2009, 09:31 PM

Thanks guys for your information.

I returned JP35 and got a credit. Now I have to choose between three models of Epiphone: Emperor Regent, Emperor 2 Joe Pass, and ES-175. Tried them all today, but cannot decide.

If anyone could give me some input?

Jerzy

**hot ford coupe** · 08-07-2009, 12:59 AM

My feeling would be as long as each guitar feels equally comfortable and you can do what you want on all them that you pick the one that really sounds the best to your ears. If you play all three, does one seem to pop more than the others? Do you tend to come back to one instrument each time you try the others? To use the "metaphysical thing", does one seem to call out to you more than the others? That's the one I would go with.

Another thing: If there is one guitar that really stands out to you and it's a little more expensive than the other, don't try to pick a cheaper instrument to save money figuring it's just as good and I'll be happy with it just the same. I did that and I never saved money. The good one just kept on calling out to me until I bought that one two. Then I had two guitars, one which I really didn't need to buy. To make a long story short, I never saved a dime that way.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 08-07-2009, 01:16 AM

Indeed. No one ever said on his death bed: I should have bought the cheaper guitar.

And I agree with HFC -- you have to play them. Aside from that, just from glancing at the Epi web site, a few things came to mind:

Emperor Regent: this is the only one of the three with a 25.5 inch scale. As discussed above the main effect of a longer scale is greater string tension. You can also get away with slightly heavier strings on a shorter scale guitar. Do you still prefer this scale length?

All three guitars have laminated tops (that's what you get in this price range), but the ER is "pretending" to be a carved top by having a floating mini-humbucker. That's just for show. There's no point to having a floatie on a laminated top and usually a full-sized humbucker will have a better sound than a mini.

Joe Pass: This has a smaller body than the ER. See which size is more comfortable to play for you.

175: This is the only one of the three with a tune-o-matic bridge versus a wooden bridge. That effects the sound a bit, so see which you prefer.

**RoyaleT** · 08-07-2009, 08:17 AM

An Aria FA71 is also 25.5" and about $500 used USD.

**JerzyPeter** · 08-07-2009, 09:01 AM

I'm really impressed by this site. It's great. You guys are very helpful.

Today I will go to this store and try those guitars again.

Yes, Emperor Regent is 25.5". But I have to tell you that when I tried the other guitars (Joe Pass and ES-175 with 24.75" scale) I didn't see much difference comparing to 25.5". (I'm talking about my problem: short scale). I even tried PM 35 and it looked to me better then PM 35 in the first store. So it looks I can stick with 24.75" scale. Something was different with PM35 in the first store. (The strings were closer to each other than in the second store)

**derek** · 08-07-2009, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by JerzyPeter

I'm really impressed by this site. It's great. You guys are very helpful.

Today I will go to this store and try those guitars again.

Yes, Emperor Regent is 25.5". But I have to tell you that when I tried the other guitars (Joe Pass and ES-175 with 24.75" scale) I didn't see much difference comparing to 25.5". (I'm talking about my problem: short scale). I even tried PM 35 and it looked to me better then PM 35 in the first store. So it looks I can stick with 24.75" scale.

The other differences are the ER is a 17" lower bout, the other 2 are 16", and the ER features a floating pup, whereas the other 2 have set humbuckers. This will result in a very different sound as BDLH points out. So I would say plan on spending 30 minutes to an hour there, plug in to an amp with a decent clean channel and spend some quality time playing these things and see what YOUR hands and ears say.

We can give you facts about features, etc, but at the end of the day, you are the one who will live with it and play it. Our advice only goes so far. Good luck with it.

**mr. beaumont** · 08-07-2009, 10:55 AM

the emperor regent is not masquerading as anything--it gets a lot more pleasant acoustic tone than a similarly priced laminate with a routed humbucker. a LOT MORE.

it's not a campellone, but it's a great starter jazzbox. as mentioned, it's the only one in that trio with the 25.5 inch scale, so make sure you like it. buy one of the other two, and you got the same short scale on a guitar you might not like as much as the PM!

if the salesman told you the Joe Pass and the 175 have the long scale, it's time to take your business elsewhere. the guy's a fool.

oh, and for the record, i play a 25.5 inch scale guitar, and up the neck, i often play those chords like this:

x9x998 (F#9#11)

noone ever notices the missing third.

**showbiz** · 08-07-2009, 11:24 PM

I'm behind you all the way Mr Beaumont. You give good advice. I have so many archtop guitars and quite a few of them are Emperor Regents because of the 25 1/2" scale. The sad thing is that 17" 25 1/2" scale archtops are getting harder to get hold of. I have always liked Tele's and Strats for their 25 1/2" scale and yet they feel so compact. My main liking for 25 1/2" scale is that on an acoustic archtops I feel that I get the maximum vibration out of the length of the string which with a 17" body gives me a feeling of the old traditional archtops of the 30's -50's.
richard@archtopguitarsandbooks.com

**JerzyPeter** · 08-08-2009, 10:10 PM

Finally I bought my guitar Epihone ES-175. I'm very excited.

The sound is nice. The only problem E-low is booming on some frets. I'm using Peavey Classic 50. I read that Roland Cube is good for jazz guitar. Do you think I should get Roland Cube for my guitar.

BTW, does anybody know what is the gauge of original strings on Epiphone ES-175?

Jerzy

**mr. beaumont** · 08-08-2009, 10:14 PM

are the chords more playable on the 175? it's a 24.75 inch scale guitar too...

glad to hear it sounds good. dial up the mids, roll off a little treble,and keep the bass about half. you can always play with the tone on the guitar as well...that peavey's a nice amp, i don't see any reason to run out and buy a cube yet--save your pesos for something really nice maybe...

**JerzyPeter** · 08-08-2009, 10:19 PM

The scale 24.75" is OK. The problem was with this model PM35 in first store. So I thought the shorter scale created the problem. PM 35 is created for beginners with small hands.

Thank you for excellent and fast info. I really love this forum

Jerzy