Heritage H-575 vs Gibson ES-175 Value?

The following is not aimed at anyone in particular. I understand that trying as many guitars as one can can be a fun game, but having owned and sold 50+ guitars, in my book, does not necessarily translates into valid opinions as to which guitars are good and which aren't - on the contrary it could be signs of a hard to satisfy consumer and compulsive buyer, rather than of any significant problem with the instruments themselves. The Internet and guitar boards in particular are a chock full of this.

It's all fun, but I don't take it too seriously. The kinds of guitars most often discussed here are carefully made products; sometimes it can take little time for a good instrument to reveal itself and the player has to concede some effort and patience, not the other way around. I've never tried one, but I'm sure a Heritage could satisfy many players for a lifetime. Plain fact, so many greats made their mark with just one instrument or just a few. When Mark Whitfield recorded True Blue at age 25 he did not own an L5. But someone loaned him an L5 for the recording - almost as good as getting one for free. Growing up in California Julian Lage mentioned getting loaned some incredible guitars all the time as well, such as a golden era Martin, at the tender age of 11.

This is an endless debate between Gibson and Heritage. As Jabs has pointed out (based on market facts ) Heritage Guitars retain less of their new value then a Gibson- period!

I just sold a recent "new" Gibson and actually made a few bucks- but did not lose a penny. That would not be the case with a resale of Heritage.

Additionally, as many have noted- Heritage guitars are notoriously inconsistent in build quality and sonic attributes. I can attest to this - I've had a few of them - and kept none.

However , no one can deny the value proposition and accessible price point of Heritage Guitars. For those who state "it's more or less a Gibson " are in many cases experiencing more of the "less" of that statement. But for those who were lucky enough to get a good one - they would disagree.

We are attracted to these guitars because of price, nostalgia and the whole Gibson story - but just follow the market and the dollars spent on resale gives us and idea of how they are perceived.

I still look at Heritage Guitars daily - seeking to pick up a great deal and hoping it will be a good one. They are relatively easy to flip if you buy them right as 2b has stated.

The best Heritage Guitar I owned (out of 6) was a Johnny Smith that I sold to a friend - who fell in love with it and still enjoys it to this day.

No disrespect to Heritage owners - but when we look at our head stocks, and do an ego check - we know what we're playing - but I think we know what we really want.

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Originally Posted by QAman

This is an endless debate between Gibson and Heritage. As Jabs has pointed out (based on market facts ) Heritage Guitars retain less of their new value then a Gibson- period!

I just sold a recent "new" Gibson and actually made a few bucks- but did not lose a penny. That would not be the case with a resale of Heritage.

Additionally, as many have noted- Heritage guitars are notoriously inconsistent in build quality and sonic attributes. I can attest to this - I've had a few of them - and kept none.

However , no one can deny the value proposition and accessible price point of Heritage Guitars. For those who state "it's more or less a Gibson " are in many cases experiencing more of the "less" of that statement. But for those who were lucky enough to get a good one - they would disagree.

We are attracted to these guitars because of price, nostalgia and the whole Gibson story - but just follow the market and the dollars spent on resale gives us and idea of how they are perceived.

I still look at Heritage Guitars daily - seeking to pick up a great deal and hoping it will be a good one. They are relatively easy to flip if you buy them right as 2b has stated.

The best Heritage Guitar I owned (out of 6) was a Johnny Smith that I sold to a friend - who fell in love with it and still enjoys it to this day.

No disrespect to Heritage owners - but when we look at our head stocks, and do an ego check - we know what we're playing - but I think we know what we really want.

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Having grown up as a classical guitar player and electric Fender player, never had the wish that my (only) Heritage was actually a Gibson. I have also played a bunch of other people's Gibsons, still don't really grasp the basis of the myth. Still a big believer in blind tests most recent example being a down tuned Tele being hard to distinguish from an archtop when listened to recorded amplified sound. ANY electric guitar emperor is naked under the psychoacoustic clothes. Acoustic guitars are obviously a completely different story and even the Gibson fans don't make big claims in that domain. Nobody has the time to do what Jason Vieaux did when it was time for him to buy a new guitar: Jason Vieaux Picks Out a New Guitar : NPR

I have some really nice Gibsons and one Heritage. But I have no desire for the Heritage to be a Gibson. I wouldn't mind if it had an ebony fingerboard instead of rosewood, or the old style tailpiece vs. the one with the "H" in it. But those are pretty superficial things. I paid less than $2K for it, and I'll be damned if it's not one my nicest playing/sounding guitars in spite of being a bit plain looking.

On the other hand, I recently bought a beautiful Golden Eagle from a prominent retailer for under $3K, and it had upper fret issues rendering it partially unplayable. It happened to sound amazing so I was bummed. But I no longer have the inclination to have that kind of thing dealt with, so I returned it (and it's been re-listed already...).

To be fair, one of my most expensive Gibsons also needed to have fret surgery to correct some issues. I won't get back what I put into it, but it plays pristinely and it's not for sale so it doesn't really matter.

I have no idea what my conclusion is, other than get 'em at a good price if you're not sure you'll keep 'em.

To me any discussion of the profits and losses of buying and selling (new or used) guitars gets old really quick. Why? Because guitars should not be looked upon as investments! If you like a guitar and it plays and sounds great, then enjoy it. When seduced by another sexy offering (from Gibson, Heritage or whomever), sell it and get what turns you on. Have fun for Pete's sake. They're only guitars, not stocks, bonds, gold, etc.

There, I've said it. Now I'm going to take a nap. And all you kids (under 60), get off my damned lawn! :peace:

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Originally Posted by QAman

This is an endless debate between Gibson and Heritage. …[ ]...
No disrespect to Heritage owners - but when we look at our head stocks, and do an ego check - we know what we're playing - but I think we know what we really want - a Hofner Chancellor.

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Fixed it for you...:smile-new:

Hammertone,
Hysterical laughing ! But you know what... - seriously.... - I have to try one of those Hofners .

Very well. I predict that you will try one before the end of this year!

You know, every time I pick up my Verythin I'm reminded of just how good the German made Hofners are. Really world class guitars...they're the Rodney Dangerfield of jazz boxes.

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Originally Posted by Gitfiddler

To me any discussion of the profits and losses of buying and selling (new or used) guitars gets old really quick. Why? Because guitars should not be looked upon as investments! If you like a guitar and it plays and sounds great, then enjoy it. When seduced by another sexy offering (from Gibson, Heritage or whomever), sell it and get what turns you on. Have fun for Pete's sake. They're only guitars, not stocks, bonds, gold, etc.

There, I've said it. Now I'm going to take a nap. And all you kids (under 60), get off my damned lawn! :peace:

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Bingo! That swam talkin bout!
JD

On the other hand, I recently bought a beautiful Golden Eagle from a prominent retailer for under $3K, and it had upper fret issues rendering it partially unplayable. It happened to sound amazing so I was bummed. But I no longer have the inclination to have that kind of thing dealt with, so I returned it .
QUOTE]

Roger,
If it's the burst Golden Eagle I'm thinking it is- I did play it. It sounded good , but I too passed on it for the same upper fret issue and the partially collapsed top. Not to mention the bridge bass that was not fitted properly. It also had more scratches on top then disclosed in photos.

But with some work- that would be a nice guitar.

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Originally Posted by agentsmith

It's not a matter of knowing how to buy and sell. Sometimes as an artist, you need a particular instrument for a project. If you're strictly a collector you can afford to sit around and wait until an instrument becomes available at the price that makes it a no-lose-if-you-sell proposition. It's not disingenuous to state an accurate fact which is that heritage guitars go for a lower percentage of their retail value than gibsons do so if you do buy high, you *WILL* lose money. I kind of resent the implication that I am being disingenuous here. I have no stake in this game. I call them as I see them even if it pisses off the herd. I stated that the heritage eagle I had worked better for me and was a better bargain than the L5.

I feel like half the disagreements on here are from folks who get pissy over someone saying something bad about one of their children.

Feel free to chest pound but I won't respond further.

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Amend !!!!

I'm going to buy a 1955 ES175D with 2 P90's. I don't care what anybody else thinks about it. It's the holy grail, of that I am certain. When you fall in love, nothing else matters.

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Originally Posted by Stringswinger

Back to my friend Mimi Fox's Heritage. Mimi's guitar is more like an L-4CES than a 175. It is a carved Spruce top with Carved maple sides and neck. I have played it and it sounds great (I think the neo classical fretboard looks great too). IIRC, Heritage puts this out as a signature model with a different tailpiece than Mimi's personal guitar and with her name inlayed into the headstock.

Here is a clip of Mimi playing her axe:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VERkgZN6OA

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Man that was beautiful. She has a gentle touch that is audible in her sound. Her picking hand is so quiet and efficient. Beautiful, just beautiful. And the guitar is wonderful. It has a proper tailpiece and also has the thicker binding in the cutaway. I love it.
JD

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Originally Posted by skykomishone

I'm going to buy a 1955 ES175D with 2 P90's. I don't care what anybody else thinks about it. It's the holy grail, of that I am certain. When you fall in love, nothing else matters.

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Skykomishone,
You should be happy about that. I grew up on one of those. If its blond and the original case has the words "ROCKY DENNIS" presstyped into where the lower bass side is, please let me know.
Those early 175's are really nice. I wish I knew where my fathers guitar ended up.

JD

When Mimi Fox plays it don't matter to me what the headstock looks like.

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Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

I don't know Jack but I know he is not disingenuous. He may be prickly, opinionated (but damn, he backs up his opinions with chops) and can be a bit of a tightass but disingenuous, no.

For disingenuous, all one has to do is trawl through the posting history of whomever one fancies. And you make up your own mind.

The last Super Peagle Natural I saw posted for sale by a man called Drew on HOC dropped to $2600 and it struggled to find a buyer. At $2600. On a fan club. Barely used.

Who pays $4000 for a used Super Peagle? Would you, 2bop?

This IS a $4000 guitar that you paid $2400 for after we told you all we knew about it : The Bourgeois A-350 Archtop .

So, yeah, it can go the other way, too.

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I'm lost. What "goes the other way?"

And what does a 4 year old guitar thread about a Bourgeois have to do with the value of a used Heritage guitar?

Jabberwocky, 4-5 months ago you posted this identical Heritage Super Eagle "worth" information regarding values of used Heritage Super Eagles, as if you alone knows the value of a Super Eagle. Excuse me, how many Super Eagles have you bought, owned, and or sold?

This false Jabberwocky value was refuted then by no less than 6 sold listings of used Super Eagles that in fact sold on reverb for $4k each. I posted the links last time which refuted your false claims. I'm not posting them again. You know where they are. Stop pleading ignorance.

And, for the record, I in fact have purchased Super Eagles at $4k. They're excellent buys at $4k. Not to you we get that, for to you the value of a Super Eagle is worth $20.

When does the price of ONE used guitar listed for sale, on a Heritage Guitar only forum, at a low bargain price, become the representative price of all other guitars of the same make? All that means is, some buyer got a great buy.

So, by your logic, the single L5CES I purchased for $3k, means the value of an L5CES should be no more than $3k.

But it's encouraging to see that Jack is back in your good graces again, for it was only months ago you were slamming Jack. :)

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Originally Posted by QAman

If it's the burst Golden Eagle I'm thinking it is- I did play it. It sounded good , but I too passed on it for the same upper fret issue and the partially collapsed top. Not to mention the bridge bass that was not fitted properly. It also had more scratches on top then disclosed in photos.

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It's disturbing that it passed their tech's inspection not once, but at least twice now, and is back up for sale. I certainly did not detect a collapsed top, though! The bridge was fine, but it had to be relocated for proper scale length and intonation - maybe that was the issue when you saw it.

And there were very few scratches (but I don't obsess over that). However the entire range from frets 12-17 on the treble strings was unacceptable to any serious player, and no amount of truss rod/action tweaking would dial it out. I tried.

Shame, because it is the best looking GE I've ever seen, otherwise I would not have been tempted to buy it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by QAman

This is an endless debate between Gibson and Heritage. As Jabs has pointed out (based on market facts ) Heritage Guitars retain less of their new value then a Gibson- period!

I just sold a recent "new" Gibson and actually made a few bucks- but did not lose a penny. That would not be the case with a resale of Heritage.

Additionally, as many have noted- Heritage guitars are notoriously inconsistent in build quality and sonic attributes. I can attest to this - I've had a few of them - and kept none.

However , no one can deny the value proposition and accessible price point of Heritage Guitars. For those who state "it's more or less a Gibson " are in many cases experiencing more of the "less" of that statement. But for those who were lucky enough to get a good one - they would disagree.

We are attracted to these guitars because of price, nostalgia and the whole Gibson story - but just follow the market and the dollars spent on resale gives us and idea of how they are perceived.

I still look at Heritage Guitars daily - seeking to pick up a great deal and hoping it will be a good one. They are relatively easy to flip if you buy them right as 2b has stated.

The best Heritage Guitar I owned (out of 6) was a Johnny Smith that I sold to a friend - who fell in love with it and still enjoys it to this day.

No disrespect to Heritage owners - but when we look at our head stocks, and do an ego check - we know what we're playing - but I think we know what we really want.

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Speaking of "Heritage resell values" did your Heritage Johnny Smith resell used for $5k?

One did just days ago.

It's become obvious that some members here, self admitted Gibson fans, apparently know less about Heritage "values" on the used market than others. I don't count you in that crowd. But it appears that others speak about false Heritage values as an attempt to substantiate their point, when in fact the Heritage value they've stated is false. This can only suggest that some will tell non truths in an attempt to be proven right.

The Heritage large archtop's have a stronger resell value than the smaller archtops. That's fact and I could present sold listings to prove the point. But the information is there for anyone to locate if they seek the truth beyond forum speak.

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Originally Posted by rpguitar

It's disturbing that it passed their tech's inspection not once, but at least twice now, and is back up for sale. I certainly did not detect a collapsed top, though! The bridge was fine, but it had to be relocated for proper scale length and intonation - maybe that was the issue when you saw it.

And there were very few scratches (but I don't obsess over that). However the entire range from frets 12-17 on the treble strings was unacceptable to any serious player, and no amount of truss rod/action tweaking would dial it out. I tried.

Shame, because it is the best looking GE I've ever seen, otherwise I would not have been tempted to buy it.

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I spoke to said dealer yesterday, after that guitar had been returned and reslisted. He poo-pooed the idea of issues with that guitar and I quote:

"This guitar was checked out by our certified guitar tech upon it's arrival. It's playing great & sounds just as good.
The action is currently set up low - at 1.25 mm on the bass & treble side of the 12th fret - lower than what you would typically see on these guitars. Set up as such, there is no choking out what - so- ever on any strings from frets 12-17."

Two of the six Super Eagles happened to be sold by you, 2bop. Congrats. You are a good student and have taken my instruction well. Good photography and a good blurb, remember? I taught you that.

From the time I got back into this in 2008, Super Eagles have always traded in the band between $2600 and $3250. Marty Grass offered me his HJS for $3300. Maple Street guitars was another that sold an HJS for $3600 with a spare rose inlaid pickguard. OK, you sold one for $4999. Those who have followed the market as I have know I am telling the truth, that I do not distort market values in search of profit.

There are those like yourself who knew nothing at all when you first came into this forum. These would be your buyers. We taught you in the spirit of camaderie. You have now turned around to bite us back. Bravo. No good deed goes unpunished.

Buying and selling over 150 archtops in 5 years is not the behaviour of a guitar nutbag. It is that of a trader.

You have out-Joe V-ed Joe V. This is called an inflationary bubble. Bubbles form but bubbles do not represent market values. Bubbles are market distortions but someone always gains in the interim. That person is you. How long do you think it can last, 2bop? Get them while you can.

Who is being disingenuous now? The guys who paid you $4000 each for the Super Eagle will find out what the market truly is when they try to sell them.

Where do I get my values from? Joe V. and Lark Street and Bernunzio's and Dave's and LaVonne and Gryphon Stringed and gbase and The Music Emporium and The Music Zoo...Yeah, Elderly Instruments and Mandolin Bros. But not JG Stewart nor Larry Wexer; they do not deal in Heritages.

I must hand it to you. You outpriced them.

Didn't Patrick trade and swap a $2400 Gibson R4 with Chris Forshage for his Antique Burst Super Eagle in 2013? I recall Chris Forshage posting a BIN of $2650 on ebay with no success. 2013, mate? Prices don't nearly double in 3 years, not for factory archtop guitars.

Patience . . . is not a virtue I'm familiar with . . .

There is a really easy way to calculate used market values. But there ones who try to catch the ingenue, the näive and exploit their ignorance.

By the way, the Bourgeois A-350 that you bought for $2400 after consulting us on what it is, Joe V is asking $5495 for a 2003 A-350. May even be the same one you bought and flipped for a profit. It was a 2003 in Dark Violin Burst finish, if memory serves. 2003 Bourgeois A-350

At Lark Street Music right now, 1989 Heritage Super Eagle. ASKING $3500! It has been there for at least 6 months. Should be gone by now, if it were priced below 2bop's "market value". Buzzy doesn't know? Buzzy KNOWS. And Buzzy is a dealer with business costs.

Attachment 37079

Buy that and sell it for $4000, 2bop. Would ya? Or is it not low enough for a decent profit?

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Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Two of the six Super Eagles happened to be sold by you, 2bop. Congrats. You are a good student and have taken my instruction well. Good photography and a good blurb, remember? I taught you that.

From the time I got back into this in 2008, Super Eagles have always traded in the band between $2600 and $3250. Marty Grass offered me his HJS for $3300. OK, you sold one for $4999. Those who have folllowed the market as I have know I am telling the truth.

There those like yourself who knew nothing at all when you first came into this forum. We taught you in the spirit of camaderie. You have now turned around to bite us back. Bravo. No good deed goes unpunished.

You have out-Joe V-ed Joe V. This is called an inflationary bubble. Bubbles form but bubbles do not represent market values. How long do you think it can last, 2bop? Get them while you can.

Who is disgenuous now? The guys who paid you $4000 each for the Super Eagle will find out what the market truly is when they try to sell them.

Didn't Patrick trade a $2400 Gibson R4 to Chris Forshage for his Almond Burst Super Eagle? I recall Chris Forshage posting a BIN of $2650 on ebay with no success.

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Actually no, you didn't "teach me that."

15 years before I became a member of this forum I'd been selling audio gear far more expensive than most guitars on this forum. I simply applied the same acquired knowledge to guitars. I knew how to present products well from writing over 450 audio trades. It's simply common sense to present an item for sale in the best possible light.

I've seen Super Eagles sell for $4k repeatedly, from dealers like Jay Wolfe.

But that does not diminish appreciation for the knowledge you and others have shared to a newcomer to this forum. For that I'm deeply appreciative.

I've generally moved on from buying guitars. The Heritage Johnny Smith acquired and sold was my swan song.

Why is that every time a 175 is compared to anything, this happens?
Jabbs and 2B, You guys are cherished members of this forum and it pains me to see you guys fighting. I hope you work it out. Because I hate to see either one of you disappear from the Barbershop we have here. Work it out. Please..

And 2b, you sold that Rose laden HJS for $5,000? Nice. Maybe this market isn't as bad as I thought.. Patience. A requirement I need to learn about.

JD

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Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Two of the six Super Eagles happened to be sold by you, 2bop. Congrats. You are a good student and have taken my instruction well. Good photography and a good blurb, remember? I taught you that.


By the way, the Bourgeois A-350 that you bought for $2400 after consulting us on what it is, Joe V is asking $5495 for a 2003 A-350. May even be the same one you bought and flipped for a profit. It was a 2003 in Dark Violin Burst finish, if memory serves. 2003 Bourgeois A-350

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In reality, I've bought and sold 6 Super Eagles. Each $4k and above. One in fact sold for $5250 in trade value for a pair of Gibson Lucille's.

That Bourgeois was a guitar I regret selling. It's worth $5k, in my experience. I sold it for $3400 plus fees. I do in fact believe it's the same guitar Joe V has listed. Joe V is the real man when it comes to selling guitars at a profit. The only thing he and I have in common is we're in the same locale. :)

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Originally Posted by Max405

Why is that every time a 175 is compared to anything, this happens?
Jabbs and 2B, You guys are cherished members of this forum and it pains me to see you guys fighting. I hope you work it out. Because I hate to see either one of you disappear from the Barbershop we have here. Work it out. Please..

And 2b, you sold that Rose laden HJS for $5,000? Nice. Maybe this market isn't as bad as I thought.. Patience. A requirement I need to learn about.

JD

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It's just a little food fight. J-Dub knows how much I respect his guitar knowledge. I must have posted that fact countless times on the forum.

Yep, she's gone. But the "rose" and the rare color contributed to that sell. That and random luck, as it is with every sell in this volatile buyers market. The market as it is now forced me out of the trading game.