-
I encountered a bit of a dilemma last night. Now that I've gotten use to the GJS, I love it. But its a very different playing experience than my other guitars. The frets are low and were that way on the brand new guitar back in 1976.
They have basically made me touch down quicker, cleaner and firmer and then pick the note. I think my playing is cleaner as a result. The low frets actually allow for much lower action too. Both actual, and perceived.
When I play the 175 that I just got, I find that until I get use to it, I sound a bit like Stanley Jordan. A lot of what I play is "hammered" on before I pick. So you actually hear the notes before I pick. That's a problem, because in order for me to play different guitars, I have to get use to them when I jump back and forth.
So here's the dilemma..
I prefer the GJS setup. Lower frets. Ultra low action. When I play it, I am flying all over the neck. Smoothly, with no separation in notes from string to string. Much better than I can play on my 3 other guitars. But in order for me to stick with this setup, I wont want to play my other guitars.
I am thinking for consistency sake, I NEED to change the frets over on the GJS. I absolutely don't want to, because I prefer the setup on the GJS. But I might have to forfeit what I just discovered that I like - in favor of what I should play because if I don't, then I'll only play one or my four guitars..
So, the Gibson Zero frets had definite advantages over regular frets. But, those advantages never took hold because all other guitars felt different.
The other thing to consider.. The binding nibs on the GJS are tiny, just like the frets themselves. When I changeover the frets, there is NO WAY to retain the existing binding nibs. The new frets would be higher.
The only thing I can do is change the frets, but choose a fret that will be as close as possible to what I have now, AND be close the frets on my Tal, HJS and this new 175. You know, somewhere in the middle.
Some other things...
Even though they are both Gibsons, there is a tremendous difference in the feel between the GJS and the 175. The GJS has a flatter fretboard. The same TI 12s on both the GJS and the 175 feel Totally different. The 12's on the 175 feel more like 13's or even 14's when compared the 12's on the GJS. The sound of the GJS is deep and there is less sustain. The sound focus is primarily low to midrange. The sound of the 175 is very twangy by comparison.
The GJS feels like a "tighter" Guitar even though the strings feel like a lower gauge. The GJS feels like a more refined tool than the 175 does. Like a laser beam as opposed to a light bulb.
I knew that once I got use to the GJS, it was going to allow me to play better. I didn't think it was going be this much different than my other guitars.
My GJS is here for keeps. But I might actually have to temper its greatness just a bit in order for it to co-exist with the HJS, Tal and the 175.
Joe D.
-
10-12-2016 12:07 PM
-
Joe,
Have you thought about treating them as though they are different instruments? I regularly switch between guitars that have different frets, but widths, neck profiles, radii, etc.. I do it during live shows too. Maybe I'm just not as good of a guitarist as you (I'm not), but I try to look at it as a multi-instrumentalist, kind of like switching between a guitar and a bass.
I don't know if that would help you, but I think it works for me. I can usually reset in a matter of a few seconds.
It just pains me to think about you changing the frets on the GJS.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Rhythm Man, the fact that you can adapt to different guitars in a matter seconds makes you a way better player than me. Way better.
Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
You bring up a good point. I should treat them as different instruments.
Vinny told me that the low frets on these old Gibsons were changed on brand new guitars back in the 70's.
I want to share the playing time on my babies. I want to love playing all of them. Right now, the GJS is an absolutely sick guitar to play. Almost un-naturally so. Low frets require low action. For me anyways. The guitar really can play itself.
I will have to explore this more. Its actually really fun to have such problems. Its like being TOO good looking. Oh yeah, how the hell would I know that!
Joe D.
-
Thank you for the kind words. I definitely would not say I'm a better player than you, but would concede that maybe we have a different skill set. Originally Posted by Max405
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
JD,
I always liked the low frets of the 70's Gibsons, but have also come to like Jumbos. For me, rotating so many guitars, I have worked at adapting. If not adapting to different guitars was important to me, I would play only one guitar, like Barney Kessel. You could refret the GJS, but it will still be different than the 175.
If I were you, I would spend a bit of time working at adaptation before doing the fret job, only to find that you still have to adapt your playing style to the different guitars with their different necks, different nut sizes, different scale lengths and different tones.
-
I think you are right SS.
Maybe once I rotate them in and out a bit more, I might get better at adapting.
I love the crap out of this GJS.
JD
-
OR, change the frets on your other guitars to more closely match the GJS. I'd not tamper with the frets on the GJS if it doesn't need a fret job...those nibs are part of the original guitar, yes...I'd leave that guitar alone and be grateful to learn low frets are an asset to your playing. How expensive is a fret job on 3 guitars, $1200? Money well spent if having that low action is that important to you. AND you gain the benefit of keeping a near classic original...that's important too, no?
-
If you want to play fast like George Benson or Pat Martino you cannot beat the 70's Gibson zero frets. You want to play chord melody you need a jumbo / medium fret with a perfect crown. Your playing style should dictate which type of fret you have on your axes. I could never understand why binding nibs or original frets are so sacred to some folks. Frets are a wear item just like your strings or the brakes on your car. A neck that plays absolutely perfect to your style of playing should be more important than binding nibs. I have always been a jumbo / medium guy. All the Gibson's I bought in the 70's got re-fretted. Yes binding nibs look very nice but is that more important than your tone ? Yes I am thankful that Gibson now uses jumbo / mediums on their guitars and I get to keep the nibs but a nib-less Gibson was never a issue with me. My buddy Tuck gets almost yearly fret jobs on his L5 and he uses jumbo / highs. Low frets also causes fingerboard divets.
-
Hi Joe,
(de-lurking)
I, too, have a clutch of favorites and usually switch among them fairly easily, although it always takes a little bit to settle in with each one. But I would never consider modifying the best playing guitar to be more like the ones that don't feel as natural to me. Sounds like an alternate definition of insanity.
I would also never intentionally install low Gibby frets on a guitar, since most players aren't keen on them. Resale might be impacted.
I would, however, revel in the fact that you found a guitar that plays so great and actually makes a real difference in your skills. You have been around long enough to know how unusual that is! So relish it. Make the JS your main squeeze, and use the others to counter that inevitable lull of boredom that periodically hits.
Sometimes - perhaps often - the guitar that plays the best, and squeezes out the extra nuance in your playing, is not the one you wish it was (i.e. the rare, valuable, or pretty one)! So be happy your emotional favorite is also the physical favorite.
Congrats on the discovery, BTW.
-
Joe,
If your not too concerned about affecting originality - and your committed to long term ownership then perhaps a fret job would facilitate transitioning between your other guitars.
No disrespect to 2b, but I would not advocate refretting others with similar frets on the GJS , then they will be the odd ball during a potential future sale - and those nibs (if present ) will be missing . But as 2b notes, keeping the originality of an instrument intact does have its benefits.
Everyone's viewpoints very good indeed- but do what's right for you.
If you do refret- I think the Jumbo's as mentioned by Stringswinger would be my first choice.
-
Vin, As you know, I play primarily chord melody, but there are a lot of fast lines in the arrangements I play. I also like playing fast and slow single line stuff too. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
Your last line concerns me. I've seen fingerboard divets on guitars and that is a major turnoff. I would be disgusted with myself if I put divets in the neck of this guitar. So that is a really compelling reason to change out the frets.
Thanks for chiming in. Now I don't have to call you on my way home tonight..
-
What Stringswinger and RPGuitar said. If the guitar is a dream to play . . .almost perfect, don't make it like the other less perfect guitars for the sake of consistency.
Last edited by ESCC; 10-12-2016 at 04:41 PM.
-
Not having consistency and having to change your physical parameters just a little bit is studied to be better for learning and retention. I think ThatRhythmMan and rpguitar have complementary points. Treat them like different instruments and gamify the process.
-
Roger, Welcome back. You missed a lot of cool stuff since you've been gone. Originally Posted by rpguitar
Hi Joe,
(de-lurking)
I, too, have a clutch of favorites and usually switch among them fairly easily, although it always takes a little bit to settle in with each one. But I would never consider modifying the best playing guitar to be more like the ones that don't feel as natural to me. Sounds like an alternate definition of insanity.
I would also never intentionally install low Gibby frets on a guitar, since most players aren't keen on them. Resale might be impacted.
I would, however, revel in the fact that you found a guitar that plays so great and actually makes a real difference in your skills. You have been around long enough to know how unusual that is! So relish it. Make the JS your main squeeze, and use the others to counter that inevitable lull of boredom that periodically hits.
Sometimes - perhaps often - the guitar that plays the best, and squeezes out the extra nuance in your playing, is not the one you wish it was (i.e. the rare, valuable, or pretty one)! So be happy your emotional favorite is also the physical favorite.
Congrats on the discovery, BTW.
But, I can see that you being away so long has NOT clouded your legendary clear judgement. And as you can see, I still get caught in my underwear over the most idiotic stuff.
You are right. The GJS will be my main guitar and I will stop whining about how my other guitars don't match up to it.
I am very happy that the guitar that I've always wanted was a guitar that I was able to adapt too. It took me 3-4 days but its done.
JD
-
Qwasel,
This must be killing you. You go out and find me the most original and spectacular JS on the planet and here I am thinking of hacking it up..
I am definitely committed to long term ownership of this guitar. If I do the frets, I will do the EVO's that just like you suggested when we were together the other night are just a tiny bit higher than these. I might need your help determining what they should be.. Can you look at the Jescar Site and tell me what you think would be the right fret? Some what of a bridge between this and your L5P? It think that would solve all the problems.
The thing that Vinny pointed out scares me to pieces. If I put a divet of any kind in this board, I will never forgive myself.
2b's advice was really logical and while I am sure the tech would certainly agree that doing 3 fret jobs instead of 1 is absolutely the right answer, I cant see myself doing that.
Thanks, Joe D.
Originally Posted by QAman
-
Max405,
Your best bet is to visit Ian as we discussed - and speak to him about fret choices and look at some examples. He does fine work - and has 20 plus years of refretting high end guitars
I'm sure he has numerous examples for you to see and feel and he's not that far away.
-
Bill Comins is in the Philadelphia area. I am sure he'd be able to set you up with a tremendous fret job.
-
You and they are right. But I think a fret with the slightest amount of additional height might do the trick. Thanks ESCC Originally Posted by ESCC
Medblues, Yeah, sure, easy for you to say.. Originally Posted by medblues
One of my problems is I love sitting down for 90 minutes at a clip and playing full arrangements that the masters themselves who arranged them couldn't even remember. This is my way of practicing. The arrangements in and of themselves are challenging enough. On top of remembering where to put your fingers, the added wrinkle of how hard to press and at what velocity is WAAAYY too much for this left hook pummeled brain to take.
Vinny told me that this is why the great ones always used one guitar. He is so right. I am looking for too much of perfect situation.
The bottom line, I probably want to raise the frets just a tad. I will probably pick up some sustain. And I wont put divets in the fretboard.
-
Yep, you are right. Originally Posted by QAman
Tom told me they have a bunch of different guitars there that I can try out.
I'd rather not be without the guitar for any length of time but all good luthiers have a backlog..
JD
-
Max405, Originally Posted by Max405
Based on our discussions - and taking into account your dilemma - I think a refret is the prudent decision. Most GJS on the used market DO NOT have the original frets, so if having uniform playability among your guitars is important- then follow that objective.
-
Too high and you can have intonation and speed problems. Too low and you can't get a proper crown so you lose tone and sustain. Better a little high than a little low IMO. You can always level and crown if a little high.
What you have now are jumbo / lows. I would keep the original width and go with a medium height. It will slow you a bit but you will have increased sustain and tone. That is the trade off. Speed vs tone & sustain. With jumbo / mediums you will still have feeler gauge action although it won't look like you do visually. You will need to replace the nut also.
-
+1 what Steve said. You are never selling that axe. Make it perfect for you.
-
You guys are perfectly right. I can't you all enough for the help. Thanks Joe D
-
My experience with frets, fret ends and playability : Originally Posted by Max405
My '89 L-4 CES needed frets when I got it and a decent luthier here put on fretless wonders......it played really really well when he got through with it......but - - the nibs were almost always a problem.....with our weather here, once a year there was the usual wood shrinkage, and the ends would become more exposed than usual......the next luthier I found years later used the Super Glue trick on the ends and that seemed to work.....
I'd also learned that luthiers can replace the bottom binding only when they replaced frets, and that this would take maybe months.....I know with a luthier of that competence, backlog is a part of it, but I was also told there's major drying time involved. I liked the idea of doing just the bottom binding, for the cost savings.......but for me the big thing would be to live with the time it'd take to do the work..........." I just got this and now it's going to be in the shop for another four months ?? " ...but if it were me, I'd look hard at doing that bottom binding when and if you did frets....then for sure, you'd have none of the risk of sharp fret ends.....
..but maybe if you do check out those other frets, etc, maybe now would be the best time to replace the frets - before you will really hate to be without it........and there's nothing wrong with consistencies among your instruments......if you were a carpenter and you liked a notch in all your hammers at a certain spot, you'd have notches in all your hammers at that spot, and that'd be it !......
MHO
Hope that helped Joe, and good luck !!
PS
I'd also keep me eye out for another GJS - by time you got the first one back from the luthier, the next one could be
' in the shop '. ( ? )
-
Here's a thought - so you've decided to get the frets redone. All the good luthiers have backlogs, so it'll be awhile. Why not spend the time considering exactly what you want, playing your other excellent guitars in rotation to inform your choices, and in the meantime play the frets right off the GJS. You know you want to.
Seriously, though...it is your dream guitar - enjoy it to the... Max!
Reply With Quote
Thomastik-Infeld Jazz Swing 112
Today, 02:35 PM in For Sale