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What are the pros and cons of a floating neck mini-humbucker vs a full-sized humbucker mounted in the top of the guitar?
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09-26-2016 02:01 AM
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IME, they give slightly different tone. An inset humbucker gives a more complex tone because it vibrates slightly, and the interaction between the vibrating strings and vibrating pickup gives a more complex tone. In the end, I think it's a matter of personal preference. I prefer a pickup routed into the top, but certainly not everyone does.
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Pretty simple: Floater lets acoustic guitars sound their best unplugged, routed in pickups are more feedback resistant. Generally speaking you find floaters on carved tops, routed pups on laminates. There are great sounding examples of each type.
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Just to be contrary: A floating pickup gives a more complex tone because the guitar's sound production is not hindered by two quarter-pound blobs screwed into holes chopped in the top of the guitar.
Originally Posted by SGosnell
Actually, it's a mistake to say, "A floating pickup sounds like xxx" or "An inset humbucker sounds like yyy." There are all kinds of different models for all different purposes. Some poor fools -- er, some intrepid gearheads -- have spent thousands trying to split hairs on pickups.
Which is "better" depends on what particular nuance you are trying to accentuate at some particular moment. Each can be a lot of fun if you let it.Last edited by Sam Sherry; 09-26-2016 at 10:15 AM.
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You don't need two pickups, necessarily. For me, one is enough. And a neck pickup placed at the end of the fretboard has a minimal effect on vibration of the top. But there are all sorts of combinations, and they do all sound different. Each individual instrument is unique, and you need to try one before buying. Stereotyping guitars, pickups, and sound is futile, especially when strings, amps, pedals, and everything else are involved.
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Purely subjective issue.
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Really depends on the specific instrument it seems.
There are cheap laminated import sounding thin and woofy with their floater and then there are great instrument like the Gibson JS or the small bodied GB10 which can sound thick.
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Ok, there is a lot of different types of every type of pickups but maybe op likes to hear some experiences so he can make up a some kind of picture about this broad field of guitar amplification.
I bought a Epiphone Emperor Regent (w/ a floater) just because of the looks. Did not like the sound, which was trebly and thin. Tried about 5-6 different pickups, other floaters and single coils. Never satisfied. In the end I realised that the scale (25,5") was too much. Sold it.
Then I bought the ES165 with a floater – just because the looks! Didn't like the sound, it was thin and trebly. Bought a thin floating PAF from Vintage Vibe Pete Biltoft. Liked the sound a lot.
Then I got a chance to play ES175 VOS 1PU. Fell in love with it. The stock pickup (Classic 57) is just great but now I love the Gibson MHS humbucker more. Warm but biting. Middles in just right place. No muddyness.
The conclusion: I like the PAF sound more than the architypical mini-floater sound. In the first place I did not realise that they are so different worlds and sounds. At least in these guitars. No real carved archtops tested, only laminates.
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My experience with floaters is like Herbie's .... they tend to be on the thin side with lots of treble
On the other hand .... plugged into the right amp they can sound darn good ....
If you want something that delivers tones with a Johnny Smith flavor then I would recommend a floater
For Wes Montgomery flavors I'd go with a mounted pup
Of course every guitar has its own voice .... but ....
IMHO the choice of amp is critical to getting a good sound out of a floater
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... so what type of amp does pair well with a Johnny Smith type archtop / floating pickup combination? I would assume that he used some type of Fender Tweed or Brownface back in the 50s or maybe a Blackface in the early 60s.
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Since I'm not gigging anymore, it really doesn't matter anymore. If I have to give a preference, I prefer a non cut top so I can have the acoustic properties at their best.
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For my floaters (Gibson Le Grand and Heritage Sweet 16) I like the sound of my Roland Cube 60, Fender Deluxe Reverb Reissue, Henriksen and I have some settings on my Mustang III v2 that sound very good. Originally Posted by artdecade
I have a Carr Rambler which is supposed to be one of the better Fender style boutique amps and the floaters don't sound as good as I would expect in this amp ...
I had a similar experience playing the new L5P floaters at Rainbow in Tucson with a Tone King ... bright and thin in the expensive Tone King, but great sounding in a cheap Roland Cube 80
Of course my opinion is based mainly on jamming in my little room at home
I played a lot of gigs with the Sweet 16 and the Carr ...my only two pieces of gear that have actually earned their keep .. LOL ...
The extra treble bite from matching up the Sweet 16 floater with the Carr actually seemed to work to my advantage when playing with a big band and big rooms with lots of people in them
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The higher the pitch, the faster it is attenuated with distance. If you start with a dark sound with little treble, listeners at a distance don't hear much except the bass. What sounds really good up close to the amp doesn't sound that good at 30 or 50 feet. And vice versa. Elephants using subaural sounds that are below the hearing range of humans can communicate for miles. Cars playing hiphop music at high volumes driving by my house have only a thumping bass that rattles my walls, and I can't hear anything above that, no treble or mids at all. The further your listeners are from you, the more treble you need. But if you're just micing the amp, then you roll the tone off somewhat, especially if you're just recording. What works in one situation won't sound so good in another. That thin tone might be just what you need sometimes.
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Well, my ES165 had the BJB floater which – I believe – is same as in Johnny Smith model. (Guitars are very different!) In my experience it sounded with Silverface Princeton w/ 12" alnico speaker thin and trebly. With Polytone 102 it sounded better. Originally Posted by artdecade
But YMMV, I tried to find the warm full size PAF sound á la Joe Pass from something that could not give it and I was disappointed.
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Are there other players that have the same type of tone that Johnny had? Just as a tonal reference? I know a lot of players that kinda have that Wes Mont tone - but not too many floating pickup players.
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Recently,I acquired a 1937 Gibson L50 with an elevated fingerboard. Elevated fingerboards were rare on this model and this made it possible to put in a Kent Armstrong 12 pole floater.Well,it sounds fantastic.I love the acoustic tone of this guitar and the floater works great.My other archtops have the pickups built in. I cannot believe how much punchier,louder and more full this guitar sounds plugged in.
This is only my second post on this forum.Thanks to all of who have, and continue to post great info,thoughts....
"Less is more...more or less"
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I like the full fat humbucker sound too Originally Posted by Roget
Peter Bernstein's floating full fat humbucker sounds Really great ...
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A little bit of apples and oranges there as the mini and full sized pickups sound regardless of the mounting method. To hear a neck-mounted floating floating full sized pickup, listen to Peter Bernstein. Originally Posted by Bruce Kiely
I have a neck-mounted floating Charlie Christian style pickup on my archtop and am delighted by it- I prefer it to humbuckers (but, boy, it sure can hum...). Some of my other favorite tones are Jim Hall with the P90 in his ES-175 and Johnny Smith with his D'Angelicos with DeArmond 1100 pickup. I like the wide aperture single coil thing a lot.
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Yeah. Jerry Garcia used a very bright, really quite thin sound. He rolled the bass on his Twin preamp (modded to go out to a McIntosh MC2500 power amp rather than using the Twin power section) all the way off and treated the mid knob as the "bass" control. It was how he was able to cut through two drums, bass, keyboards and another guitar. But just playing on his own, it was really pretty thin and trebly. He was a banjo player before guitar, though, and that may have influenced his tone preferences. Originally Posted by sgosnell
When I set up my tone at gigs, I walk as far out into the room as I can get with my cord to try to hear what it sounds like there instead of onstage. My hope is those folks will hear the tone I want, even if I don't. It might even work, I get a lot of compliments on my tone (although not on my playing...). In the studio, the little bit of recording I have done, I still set the tone a bit brighter than I would like so that it can be adjusted in the mixing and mastering. They can't add in frequencies that weren't there in the first place, they can only shape the ones that are there.
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That's a great question because, of course, the pickup doesn't generate any sound all by itself. It has to be considered in its relationship to the amp. Originally Posted by artdecade
IME I have found my tweed Deluxe (5E3) to be a great match. It brings in a lot of warmer low mids and bass frequencies and it is possible to get a nice round top end. This has become my favorite amp for my archtop, my GB10 and my Teles.
Johnny no doubt used Fender amps at times because they were what was there, but given his preference he did not like them because of the mid cut. He wanted a flat response curve from the amp, basically no coloration at all. He worked with Ampeg to design a couple of amps (most famously the Fountain of Sound) and with IIRC Benson Amplifiers to create a Johnny Smith model amp. I suspect he would like the options available now like Acoustic Image, AER, Henrickson, Roland, etc. OTOH he spoke well of Music Man amps and I think they had a similar mids cut as Fenders do.
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I have a floater on my Ibanez AF105f-nt.
Very nice balanced sound, but also noisy -- not quite sure what's up with that!
I have a Bill Lawrence A 400 floating Humbucker-- acoustic oriented -- on my '34 L7
It's dead quiet, and pretty well balanced (not 100%, but very very good)
I like floaters, but I think set-in humbuckers are a tad bit easier to deal with.
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So my experience twixt set and floaty is thus....
Set Mighty Mite humby in non descript plywood and flats was thunk to mud. Like & nice!
Floaty mini humbo on spruce plywood and flats has crispy zing. Yum!!
Floaty minzy on spruce thru 15 watts valve benefits with Jazzbox vol at third and tone to dial in or out crispy zing.
Dig?
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I keep wondering about the DeArmond recently reissued by Guild and how great it sounds in demos - game changer or not? Was there really no affordable equivalent on the market before that reissue?
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Dr. Bronner, is that you? Originally Posted by jazzbow
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