-
Originally Posted by BigMikeinNJ
Hi Big Mike,
delighted for you acquiring a Byrdland, after many years of wanting one I bought
mine ( 2013 ) last month, after first consulting Vinny, and Franz 1997 here ,on the
pros and cons. For me, it is like an L5 for those of us without "Tal Farlow" hands .
Remarkably easy to get used to. I feel sure that you'll love yours too.
All of us root for Vinny, as JD attests he is extraordinarily tolerant, and deserves
better.
Alan
-
08-11-2016 04:03 AM
-
Drifter,
Congrats on your new acquisition, I cannot resist applauding a buyer with a new L5
it took me 30 years before I could afford a new one. There is a mystique about it
that defies description , I have had many very good guitars ,but few even approach
a top quality L5 as you obviously have discovered.
btw Vinny will have his day, he is not a quitter , just patient.
-
Well, yeah, he deserves to step up to a Chancellor. Originally Posted by silverfoxx
As do you.
-
Not too long ago I got flamed when I mentioned similar mishaps with Gibson a reputable local luthier / tech told me about. When he turned down some L5s he was ordering for a client from the Gibson rep, due to some issues that in his opinion shouldn't be on a 10k instrument, the Gibson rep simply replied "no worries, I can always pass them on to someone else". So as you say it must be intentional on Gibson's part. I get what you and others say about good Gibsons being exceptional, but that kind of moral sleaziness really turns me off the Gibson brand, even more than anything else QC front. Originally Posted by Drifter
-
Guitars and cars are a bit different though. In the 80s and 90s there was a local dealer that would by cases of Gibson Archtops. I was able to play maybe a half dozen of each model at any one time. They put them in the case as received from Gibson. If I'm being honest most of them were not good players. Most of them had the potential to be good players, but they just were not sent out that way. They all sounded like a Gibson and some exceptional ones as well. Most of the Ibanez as a comparison, were excellent right out of the box. Notably the George Benson models. Gibsons sound like Gibsons and if that's the sound you have in your head, Ibanez or any other brand just won't give it to you. The good news is with a bit of after work, the majority of Gibsons are great guitars. Now for years everyone has been saying that it just shouldn't be for the money you pay, and for years nothing has changed. People still buy them and the brand offers top notch resale value for the bother. They probably won't change their recipe any time soon and those lucky enough to afford them will buy them!
Originally Posted by whiskey02
-
A Plek machine in the hands of a moron is simply dangerous, especially on a fine instrument. The guitar needs to be set up with the strings of choice after the wood has "matured" to the climate for the best results. Having said that, my G&Ls have been great out of the box. But I don't put heavy flatwounds on them. Originally Posted by MaxTwang
My recent acquisition of a 1996 Heritage Johnny Smith needs fret leveling. I looked at a few options. Yesterday I took it to Heritage. It drew enough attention that I was comfortable leaving it there. Before even opening the case, one of the luthiers told me where the buzzing might be and why. He was right. He also said that with TI GB 14s the nut and saddle will need some subtle mods. I wondered about Pleking. The answer was that a machine can level the frets, but you need a good craftsman who cares in order to get a good overall result.
It's hard to argue with that.
-
Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
That may not be that easy, Joe. I mean we are talking about tyin' up a guy from Chicago named ' Vinny ' . I mean, I'm north of there, and not Italian, but you know, I hear these things can take time . . .
-
I have only bought one Gibson new- a L6-S reissue; compared to the archtops folks here have bought, it's a very inexpensive instrument comparatively... $1800AUD IIRC. When I bought it I was actually after a semi-hollow, but ended up buying this strange looking, but great sounding solid body. It played well for about 3 months before it started to get some real nasty fret buzz. I brought it to my luthier and he was really surprised how poorly the frets were dressed - there was no crown , they were filed flat like railroad tracks.
My MIJ Gretsch G400 on the other hand --- perfect. I can't fault anything with that guitar. Tone, playability, fit and finish all is top class. I can't see myself purchasing a new Gibson archtop, too expensive and it sounds a bit risky with QC. That being said I would sell my Gretsch plus several other guitars to get a good Johnny Smith or similar.
-
So why did it develop fret buzz? Something must have changed. But the L6-S is a Gibson USA guitar if I'm not mistaken. We're talking about the Crimson Custom shop here. The top of line, the best of the best. You think that sounds cynical? This is a quotation from the leather-bound Crimson certificate of authenticity:
Gibson Custom introduces Custom Crimson; one-of-a-kind, hand crafted, small batch and art guitars. Nicknamed "Crimson" after the red tape that is affixed to these very special guitars as they pass through each crafting stage, these instruments represent the most rare and unique pieces offered by Custom. Each member of this elite team of master luthiers and artists represents the highest level of skill and leadership in the guitar making industry. These men and women have been hand selected by Gibson Custom and are held to the highest standards of craftmanship and creativity. Selection to the Custom Crimson team is considered to be the highest honor and achievment among the Gibson Custom shop team. Members are encouraged to dream and create without boundaries while crafting truly captivating instruments to meet the expectations of the few who will have the chance to add these landmark instruments to their collections.
Now that must be cynical, at least in the eyes of customers like Vinny.
-
You call it cynical but i'm afraid that this is the direction in which the hole western mentality is heading. Nice but meaningless sentences designed to give the illusion of an ideal situation, whereas everybody who "still" can see & think knows that they don't represent the reality. The worst part of it is the general acceptance of this development in most fields by the modern society. Originally Posted by Drifter
-
I have no reason to call it cynical, my L5 is a wonderful guitar. But I feel for Vinny.
The phenomenon you describe is neither new nor typically western but a human peculiarity.
-
Exactly. Saying nice, ornate things that you don't mean or back up. Demanding high money for a sloppy or half-done job. That, in plain terms, is third-world, banana republic mentality. I wish I could find the extraordinary correspondence from a Gibson rep to a member's relative, that were posted here by that member some time ago. Just remarkable. Contrast that to current practices. But the problem goes way beyond Gibson and the US, it's spreading all over. I find that trend to be terribly worrying because it means the modern world is seriously losing it, and I'd rather not think about what we might get instead. Originally Posted by JazzNote
-
That is called Public Relations. All companies and public personae have one. Originally Posted by m_d
-
What is lacking at Gibson these days is simply a bit more "pride" in what they do; that only can start at the very head of the company.
Vinnyv1k is a very good example of that Love / Hate relationship Gibson has with its customer because of their lack of pride anymore.
To be proud of your past is not enough, you must also be of what you do now, selling high end instruments commanding premiums when some of them don't even have the basics like a properly setup neck is indecent.
Trying to cover a mistake and save a couple bucks by voluntarily overpleking a neck is criminal.
You don't save anything if guitars are being sent back to you, unless you pass them again to an unscrupulous dealer or clueless "collector".
If you don't have good dried wood, produce less...but produce good stuff...quality is better than quantity.
Wanna justify your premiums on CS stuff ? produce even less but get back some pride into what you do.
If you rely just on your past glory, your customer base will then only do the same and buy stuff from when you still had more pride in what you do...in no time you will be history.
With that said, I have 2 very good older Gibson USA and a fabulous '90s CS instrument and have nothing but a very good but also limited experience with Gibson. I can praise the name Gibson but that doesn't bring anything to Gibson because their customer base are people who might buy new and I am not one of them.
-
BTW....I emailed both Gibson customer service and Henry J. 4 days ago. Not a word back from either. I guess it was a small miracle getting the neck repaired on my Tal Farlow. Got lucky with Gibson on that one I guess. I was at least hoping for a apology from customer service. I was pretty much positive that Mr.J would just thumb his nose at me.
What surprises me the most is the luthiers at the Crimson Shop. They are Gibson's top guns. Someone had to sight down the neck and see the ski jump. How could they sign the Crimson COA and send it out unless being ordered to by someone higher up the command chain ? I would think the Crimson luthiers take great pride in their work unless they don't like working for Gibson. People that love their job do outstanding work as a general rule. People that hate the company they work for usually do just what it takes to stay employed. I tend to think that working for Gibson may not be all that great.
Google treats their employees like gold. Good in, Good out.
-
I don't know why anyone would bother to spend 8.5K on a factory/mass produced guitar.
For that money, you could get a hand made guitar by the luthier of your choice.
The luthier that has the reputation of making guitars that were most like the classic Gibson guitars is Campellone, but I've never played one, so I'm just going by Roger Borys' opinion.
-
Vinny, I suspect morale may be spotty or worse among the those with real talent there. I'm guessing.
I had a sticky finish on a Gibson neck that was 10 years old that I got used. I called the repair shop for advice and talked with the shift supervisor. He said it was out of warranty. Duh. When I told him I just wanted some advice, he said he's never heard of a Gibson with a sticky finish and that it should be dry by now. I asked if there was someone else who might be able to help me.
A couple of weeks later the repair shop manager called me. He also said he's never heard of such of thing. I told him that this really is not that rare and that I was surprised he never heard of it.
I wiped it down with acetone and buffed it out. Problem solved.
I was not impressed. I got the right help from a luthier forum.
-
Yes, you could spend $8.5k on a luthier guitar but it probably won't sound like a gibson. Must luthier guitars are designed as acoustic instruments with a pickup added. Very few luthier guitars sound like a great gibson L5 or 175. If you want a guitar to sound like a 175, an L5 or a Tal Farlow, i'm afraid your choices are limited to Gibson pretty much although the heritage carved top guitars do sound similar to gibsons carved tops. The difference being that heritage uses a maximum of 3" depth at the edges so the dynamic range is limited. Originally Posted by sgcim
-
Vinny,
If you hear nothing back from HJ or Customer service , I expect you will let
us know. I for one, intend letting them have both barrels with an email
telling them that they have not just lost one very good customer, but
quite probably a number, of very disappointed Gibson enthusiasts. Not to
have the courtesy to acknowledge your serious issues or apologise is just
unacceptable and I think a post or two on the Gibson Forum might also be
appropriate.
Alan
.
-
I know why some people spend 8.5K on a Gibson L-5 or related/similar Gibson models. These are indeed factory produced guitars, but they are not mass-produced. They do so because they like the Gibson brand, enjoy these products, prefer to buy new, shiny things, and are in positions to do so. Big world. Not my world, but that's OK by me. Originally Posted by sgcim
I disagree. It's dead easy to get a guitar built that sounds the same as the Gibson on which it is based. All you need to do is pay for it. You can also have it built to be a replica - there are some fine builders offering that service. Gibson typically protects its trademarks and, as is their right, asks that these builders cease and desist if these instruments have the Gibson logo and headstock. But the price very well may be so close that many would simply buy Gibsons. Originally Posted by agentsmith
Archtop players, unlike Les Paul and ES-3x5 players, don't bother with this for the most part, and are less concerned that their Gibsons be like the guitars that Gibson made in 1959.
Last edited by Hammertone; 08-13-2016 at 12:28 AM.
-
Originally Posted by sgcim
I see lots of lovely archtop guitars from small luthiers and smaller companies that I would love to have .... but I've only had my hands on a few of them ...
For most of us the only way to try one of these is to buy one and that's a gamble .. even more so on a new one ..... you know you're going to take a loss if you have to sell .... and selling an archtop is a long slow process unless you're willing to price it low ... and it's a Gibson
I did pick up a used Campellone recently and that has been a very nice guitar .... apparently it was on consignment in the Toronto area for some time before I spotted it.
For most of the Gibson guitars that I have bought I was able to get my hands on them before buying .... if they hadn't been up to snuff I wouldn't have bought them
I've been lucky with 2 LPs that I bought on line or the Le Grand that I ordered new
And a comparison of prices ... particularly real street prices ... shows Gibson is actually priced in the mid range when it comes to fancy archtops .... Benedetto and Buscarino can cost you more than a Gibson ... and then there's makers like Monteleone .. check out his prices
-
I have been feeling really sorry for Vinny and his hard luck with Gibson Crimson. You would never hear a complaint out of me about the quality of a well made L-5 CES, or a good Super 400, or a great Tal Farlow.
However, I have jumped ship in recent years. When I play my Super Eagle by Heritage I get all of the nuance and subtlety of jazz tone that I have come to expect from one of the big, carved-body Gibby guitars.
This rose sunburst, premium wood, extra binding Super Eagle that I have...others on the forum named it "Lady Rose," is a great sounding guitar. The Wes Montgomery tones it generates, and the Kenny Burrell Chitlin's con Carne vibe it produces is simply amazing. You want Barney Kessel's version of "Alfie?" It leaps out of that big body with ease and assurance.
It's not that Heritage can't turn out a dud, but they routinely build excellent guitars...on the equipment and at the work stations at which the classic Gibsons were made.
Vinny?
-
Actually, thinking more about it, I do know why people would spend 8.5K on a Gibson; its resale value. Originally Posted by Hammertone
Those guitars made by small shops with only one to three people are more difficult to sell, and lose their resale value much more than Gibsons.
One guy I knew said he didn't have a bank account like most people- he had a Gibson account.
Gibson guitars have appreciated quite a bit from when they were first made- an ES 175 originally sold for $175, and so on.
-
I have seen countless examples of Gibson guitars over the years with significant quality issues very much like poor Vinny has encountered. To be fair, I had a custom Heritage guitar made with significant fingerboard and nut issues that pass through a well respected dealer's bench to boot. It frankly was not repairable but could be made "playable" with $400 of repairs. Yes, both companies can and have made some great ones, but sight unseen you will need to cull through some lemons.
I will no doubt be in the minority here, but there are a number of custom builders who can build you a flawless guitar. It can be taylored to be more acoustic or electric, depending on the player's needs. No, it won't have a "Gibson" logo or be the guitar that your hero played, but it will be a killer guitar. As scary as it sounds, I am an advocate of having the instrument made custom for you instead of buying one you have auditioned at a shop. A skilled archtop luthier will adjust the build to suit your playing needs. Many impressions of a builder's work are based on either spec guitars at stores or used guitars at retailers made to another player's needs. Yes, there is resale risk should you choose to sell it but no risk, no reward.
My $.02
-
Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
You are so very right! I drove 14 hours about a week ago to personally check out a guitar before buying it. It was worth the long drive. Specs, pix, and testimonials from strangers aren't enough for a blind purchase.
If you want a keepsake, you need to put in your due diligence, or it's a roll of the dice.
The exception is a custom build from someone you know who will deliver. But plan on keeping it.
Reply With Quote
mid-ranginess?
Today, 05:42 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos