The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Any thoughts on how to control them?


    I just put new strings on one of my guitars and noticed major wolf tones that may or may not have been present before the change. I changed from D'A Chromed 12's to D'A wound 12's. The wolf tones were first noticed and are worst when working on inversions, and playing a C Maj 7 chord starting at the 10th fret over strings 3-6 ( E, B, C, G from 6-3). When I play each note separately it's okay. When I play the B and C together by themselves or as part of the chord the wolf tones are tremendous. Do the strings have anything to do with it? Any ideas on how to resolve these unwanted tones? Thanks

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    try puting a piece of foam between the bridge and the tailpiece...i'd imagine you are talking about an archtop setup...

    the break angle over the bridge from the tailpiece may be a hair too shallow or have an ever so slight less amount of tension (due to string change) and w tones occur

    start there

    cheers

    ps- here's the basic idea..albeit a bit much

    Wolf Tones After Changing Strings-img_3176-jpg
    Last edited by neatomic; 07-24-2016 at 09:03 PM. Reason: ps-

  4. #3

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    Thanks neatomic for that important info. I've got the same problem when I change strings.

  5. #4
    Yes, an archtop with a soundpost. I tried a towel without success, but will try foam. As for strings I don't want to increase above 12's, but may try 11's.

  6. #5

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    Wolf tones can come from sympathetic resonances from the bridge to the tailpiece. There are also other sources. For eg it may be main body resonance. Think blowing across a bottle to generate a tone. You can try covering up one f hole with cellophane. If the wolf tone goes away then you know it has nothing to do with your tailpiece.


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  7. #6

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    Be careful with foam and nitro finishes.

  8. #7

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    Using a TOM saddle? Try loosening the strings and reseating them over the individual saddles. The saddles may be loose and sitting in a position that causes sympathetic resonances. I would use a dab of clear nail polish to lock them in place. Be careful as nail polish eats nitro. Try reseating the string ballends at the tailpiece. Reseat the strings at the nut slots.

    If there is anything I have learnt about guitars it is that there are so many little bits that can work themselves a little loose and cause wolf notes. Pickguard bracket tightened?

    My first course of action is to try re-stringing it and checking all the bits that could rattle for rattle. The rattling bits could just work together to set off wolf notes.

    Changes in string tension could also excite wolf notes.

    Get a ball of yarn and weave it amongst all 6 strings between the bridge and tailpiece.

  9. #8
    All of my guitars have rosewood bridges except for my G&L Legacy.

  10. #9

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    On one of my archtop guitars, I find the G note, (and Gb and Ab to a lesser degree) can be highly resonant. The notes start off very loud, but it seems the resonance gets out of phase, and then quickly cancels the note. Is this the type of behavior you get when you describe a wolf note?
    Last edited by DanielleOM; 07-25-2016 at 07:45 AM.

  11. #10

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    Wolf tones are sometimes from the resonance frequency of the guitar matching a note on the scale. Sometimes adding or removing weight from the bridge can alter the resonance freq. enough to cure the problem. A simple way to add weight to the bridge is by adding an extra thumbwheel nut. Removing weight from the bridge is more difficult.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    ...Try reseating the string ballends at the tailpiece. Reseat the strings at the nut slots...
    Sometimes the ball ferrule things can stay loose on the end loop of the strings. Ideally you would like the hole in the tailpiece to clamp down on the loop so that it pushes tight against the ferrule so that the ferrule doesn't vibrate. Just a thought. I am not saying that this is the OP's issue, but I have had it happen.

  13. #12
    The funny thing is that it happens only when the 1 and 7 are played together, but not individually...and predominantly when played on strings 3-6. Chords on the middle or bottom sets are okay, as are chords which skip strings. Is this typical? Funny, but it's probably been happening forever, but I just noticed it after beginning to work on my inversions.

  14. #13

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    Maybe you should go back to flats. T-I Jazz Swings?

    I have got this yearning to tune to A432 after hearing Michael Chapdelaine. Not for any mystical reason but man, Michael tears it up. His guitars do sound great tuned to a lower A. There is something to it. I tried it on one guitar. Easier to sing along to and the strings feel softer under the fingers.

    Tune to A432 or any low A and see if the wolf notes go away. The energy that comes from playing stacked notes is causing some bodily resonance and you to got to move it away from that.

    I am going out on a limb here. Other than changing the wooden saddle to a TOM, loath as I am to suggest it, tweak the truss rod a smidge? Move the intrinsic tension in the neck assembly around. I'd back off the truss rod a little to lower the resonant frequency. 1/32nd of a turn. Just what I'd try.

  15. #14
    Interesting discovery...

    All of my guitars are archtops but one--a G&L Legacy. I'm sure most are familiar with this model, but for those who aren't it is Leo Fenders version of the Stratocaster after he and Fender parted ways. I don't play it much as it isn't the ideal jazz guitar, but I got curious about whether or not similar wolf tones would exist on this guitar as they do on all of my archtops (I tried them all and got the same results). To my surprise they occur on this guitar as well, and like the others they only occur when playing a Major 7 on the upper four strings, and occur from the interaction between the 1 and 7 of the chord. This guitar is different from my Guilds in every way, so is it possible this issue is originating from the amp? Or perhaps it occurs on every guitar? I will next try each guitar through my JC-40, through my multi-effects unit going into my computer, and directly through my PA system.

    And regarding strings, I use the following:

    X-170: DA Nickel 12's
    Aristocrat: DA Chromes 12's
    X-500: DA Chromes 12's
    Artist Award: TI Jazz Bebop 13's

    G&L Legacy: DA 10's, I think.

    And all respond exactly the same way.
    Last edited by snoskier63; 07-30-2016 at 12:36 AM.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoskier63
    ... so is it possible this issue is originating from the amp?...
    What amp you got? Is it the JC-40 you mentioned?

  17. #16

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    Is the Legacy wolf tones or is it oscillation from the pickups being too close to the strings? Start style single coils tend to have a strong magnetic field and should bet set lower than you would set a humbucker, if the pickups are too high the magnetic field can interfere with the string vibrations, especially as you move up the neck.

  18. #17

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    Wolf tones are well known in the violin family.

    How to Tame Annoying Howling Wolf Tones ? Strings Magazine

    With violins, wolf notes are pushed in between two half notes where they are not heard so much (except when plying glissandi). They are hard to remove completely. Usually small metal weights are fastened on the string in question between the bridge and the tailpiece and moved back and force on that length of string until the desired effect is reached. I haven't tried it myself but maybe they can work on archtops too. I figure the ones designed for cellos would have the right size. They are available from most sellers of violin accessories.

    Last edited by oldane; 07-30-2016 at 07:00 AM.

  19. #18

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    Wolf Tones After Changing Strings-maxresdefault-jpg

    My ex-wife gave me this T-shirt in the 80's when we were dating--excellent Irish band. Her brother did an Irish music radio show at Notre Dame when he was in college there.

    I wore the shirt til I wore it out, which pretty much explains my history with the ex-wife...

  20. #19

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    Back OT, there are MANY causes of wolf tones, which I have also heard referred to as tone buildup. My Peerless Sunset has this tendency especially with B on the first string.

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kXQ6FhpaHHE/maxresdefault.jpg

    I have observe that different strings and a slight change in the setup--action and all that--makes a bit of a difference.

    What really helps is a sweepable midrange filter or feedback filter, like on my Loudbox Artist. This pretty much eliminates unwanted tones which tend to feed back.

  21. #20

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    Hi,
    While I cannot be certain that your "wolf tones" are what I heard with my arch tops, I believe that I encountered a similar
    dissonance with 2 guitars—L5 CES and New Tal Farlow—and it turned out to be the PUP springs. I only heard the dissonance above the 7th fret and only when playing contiguous strings or chords above that level. But the tones were heard, for the most part, only when played acoustically. When amplified, I did not appreciate the dissonance. My luthier replaced the L5's springs with plastic tubing and the Tal responded to a slight tightening of the PUP screws, thereby lowering it a tad.

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxTwang
    Is the Legacy wolf tones or is it oscillation from the pickups being too close to the strings? Start style single coils tend to have a strong magnetic field and should bet set lower than you would set a humbucker, if the pickups are too high the magnetic field can interfere with the string vibrations, especially as you move up the neck.
    I'm not sure pickup height is an issue because on one archtop I lowered the pups all the way down (way below the strings) and it didn't change anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200
    What amp you got? Is it the JC-40 you mentioned?
    The amp I have been using is my Roland Blues Cube Artist. I also have a JC-40, and will try that next.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by snoskier63
    I'm not sure pickup height is an issue because on one archtop I lowered the pups all the way down (way below the strings) and it didn't change anything.

    My pickup height suggestions was regarding the G&L Legacy, Strat style single coils can have a very strong magnetic field.

  24. #23
    Right, but my point is that a guitar with very low pickups, and the Legacy with higher pickups both responded the exact same way. I take that to suggest that pickup height is irrelevant, but perhaps my conclusion is faulty.

    I realized that a simpler test would be to play the Major 7 on the upper four strings on each guitar unplugged, taking the pickups and amps out of it. The results remained the same for all guitars.

    Perhaps others can test this on their guitars, focusing on the upper set. Play each note separately, then either play the full four-note chord, or simply play the 1 and 7 together. Let me know what happens.
    Last edited by snoskier63; 07-30-2016 at 11:40 PM.

  25. #24

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    What's interesting is it happens on all your guitars. Is this happening on all Maj7's on the top 4 strings or a specific chord?

  26. #25

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    Sounds like it could be a speaker issue.