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I for one am glad to see Heritage shining on this guitar thread. Joe, you are a great player and I am looking forward to a video or two in the near future of you taking that guitar through its paces. I love Heritage guitars and it is great when someone discovers something special. Knowing that you have/had DA's, Gibsons, and other fine archtops and describe your Heritage second to none puts a smile on the face of many Heritage owners (including me). Looking forward to a video or two.
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07-04-2016 11:22 PM
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Rhoadscholar,
Thanks buddy.
If I had any amount of money in the world and I could have any luthier build me a guitar, I honestly think I couldn't be more perfectly suited to my style of playing than this wonderful guitar is. Now truth be told, this is a miracle guitar. Its 22 years old. It looks like it was made yesterday. I have no idea what its been through in its life. But to me, It is a perfect guitar.
I started learning "Whats New" over the weekend because I wanted to do something fresh on the Guitar. Part of the way through the tune I realized that very much like "Maid with the Flaxen Hai"r, I would not play the tune much and I would probably forget how to play it a week after I recorded it. So I changed gears a little and decided to take on "Autumn Nocturne" instead. Its shorter, full of tricks and it will keep my interest and stick in my head. Give me a couple of weeks.
One thing I must say. The stock pickup that Heritage used on this guitar is the PERFECT pickup for this guitar. It basically amplifies the natural sound of the guitar. I think its an incredible pickup. It is the perfect compliment to the Chord Melody machine that this guitar is. I love the thing. I really do.
Thanks,
Joe D.
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The Heritage Floating #3 is a wonderful pickup. Most people want a hotter pickup than this was designed to be. But for a low output, articulate pup that gives no hum, the #3 works very well.
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And as you know Kent Armstrong installs his hand wound pickup in the housing of a Heritage #3. The black non cutaway GE came with the KA pickup mod. I liked #3 floaters as they are until I heard the KA mod
Originally Posted by Marty Grass
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Here's a couple of new Heritage links.
Teddy has been there forever.
After almost 50 years making guitars in Kalamazoo, it's time to go fishing | MLive.com
A video.
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great vid...thanks
"you take a look at the guitar..they're a beautiful thing!"
amen!
cheers
ps- good luck to teddy b..catch some whoppersLast edited by neatomic; 07-06-2016 at 06:12 PM. Reason: ps-
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Wow, a $12M property renovation in the works and remaining in Kalamazoo - Kewl!
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Heritage Johnny Smiths were made from 1992 until about 2000. Almost all of them were exactly as JP Moats and Johnny Smith designed them. Almost.
In 1992, Don Dean, a Heritage dealer, guitar collector, and player ordered an 18" HJS in a rose natural finish. That has been shown on the JGF before. Don favored 18" archtops. Being a friend of some of the Heritage owners, they made the exception in size for him.
Four years later, Don ordered another 18" HJS, this time in natural with a triple binding on the f holes. I'm assuming it is tap tuned since Don ordered the first one that way. He kept this one until his death in 2014.
Here's an interview with Don along with pix. Scotty Moore - Don Dean
There were three other off sized HJS, all of them 16". One has a Florentine cutaway. I don't know where those are anymore.
If all goes by plan, I should have the 1996 HJS by the end of the week.
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SWEET !!
Will be nice to see YOUR photos of it once you get it.
18 inches huh ?? Whoa !!
Big
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Most people find an 18" Heritage not too bulky because the depth is 3". A Super 400 is deeper and longer. For many, that model is pushing it.
I'll clean it up and reshoot it.
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Is it truly any different than a super eagle in JS trim? Didn't you own an 18" HJS just a year ago?
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Congrats in advance Mark. My Heritage built D'Angelico II is a bit thicker than 3 inches, but is still more comfortable than my Super 400. Between you and Big Mike, you guys could open a Heritage Guitar museum. Perhaps a virtual museum in the form of a web page might be worthwhile?
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When Patrick was alive, He told me this.. "MartyGrass is thecapo di tu ti capo of Archtop guitars... He knows about every Guitar from Coast to Coast". Well Patrick, here is proof once again that you know your stuff..
Don Dean, god bless his soul was a music store owner who was a hell of a player. He played with Merle Travis and Bucky Pizzarelli (and probably many people in between). I told MG 2 days ago, "this guitar his some licks in it. Just look at The pic of Don and the 6 fret stretch.. You gotta get this one". Well, its incoming.. I couldn't be happier for MG. From the pictures MG sent me, it appears as though this guitar is a good detailing away from being a masterpiece.
I am thrilled that you are getting this Guitar MG. Thrilled.
Thanks, Joe D.
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Tal Farlow hands
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HJS has a neck block that is somehow different. It's the way Johnny Smith and JP Moats worked out the design. There's no fretboard overhang. I think it's the same design as with the Gibson JS, but I may be wrong. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
The input jack is in the reinforced rim.
Premium woods are used in the HJS but only sometimes with the SE.
The guitar is tap tuned.
The nut is 1 3/4" and the scale length is 25". This is larger and smaller, respectively, than the SE.
The dimensions are the same otherwise.
The SE is dolled up elegantly with binding and inlays but differently than the HJS.
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I am spiffing up a few Heritages to put on loan to the Kalamazoo Valley Museum, perhaps for the annual Fretboard Festival. That's the driving reason for getting this HJS and also the Unity I recently acquired. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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Originally Posted by Marty Grass
emphasis added. Also, SE has 2 set-in humbuckers (there are custom SE's with a single set-in HB). The HJS is always a floater.
The closest production model to an HJS is a Golden Eagle which is similar to an SE but has a floater.
On the used market there are guitars listed as SE's with floaters, these are either listing errors or Heritage has been labeling GE's as SE's.Last edited by MaxTwang; 08-02-2016 at 04:39 PM.
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Heritage has actually put out a few custom ordered SE with floaters. They are quite rare though. Originally Posted by MaxTwang
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MG,
the HJS, even bulked up to 18" will look very bland next to the Unity. I'm not sure you want to show them side by side like that. There is, However, an exposition at my house that very same month that would be more than happy to display your HJS! How ironic! Who knows, they might even get some hack to make some Johnny Smith and Joe Pass Video's on it.. Just Sayin..
And there is a very real possibility that when its returned to you, it might have the upgraded Brown Sunburst pickguard on it, as opposed to the scratched up, listless, unimaginative one that is on there now.
Its up to you!!
L,J
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I had a hunch Joe D. was going to try and get that pickguard with the inlaid rose...
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What? That is a rose on there? I never would have known.
I thought it was pick marks.
L,J
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He's not the only one, I just haven't figured out a way to get my hands on Marty Gras' HJS so I can swap the pick guard with mine. That's even nicer than Heritage's bound ebony pick guards. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
I had a hunch Joe D. was going to try and get that pickguard with the inlaid rose...
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Then there is mine...one of the most exquisite guitars I've ever played. Action lower than a shredder guitar with no buzz...no idea how that's possible. That's a Kent Armstrong engine under that golden pickup hood.
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Yes, that's right, the guitar Marty Grass got in August...
With all the buying I'd done I still had a jones for a Johnny Smith and looking around the best one for me was the 18... So I contacted Marty and it'll be here later today. You know the one... Go Big or Go Home...
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Wow Mike. I am surprised that MG is selling you that Guitar. I actually don't have the words.
Guitars like that don't come around everyday. Very cool. You are a very fortunate guy.
I think by now you are certainly qualified to start teaching us the differences that distinguish one of these Guitars from the next. Like compare the 17" to the 18" Unity. Then compare the 18" HJS to the 18" Unity. Give us your opinion on the REAL (not theoretical) differences between guitars with floaters vs pickups cut into the top. Christ, you can discover stuff for the next 15 years with all the superb guitars you got.
Not many people have the ability to do this. Same hands, same amp.. I am anxious to hear your thoughts.
I am really happy that you are doing exactly what you want. You are living a dream right now. That is so cool.
Joe D.
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The fact that Marty had it to Heritage just recently for some adjustments and a little upper register fret finishing was part of the attraction. Lou Del Rosso had a lovely blonde HJS but this one is just really very, very special. Hard to believe in 6 months I went from having not much to this. Each piece I came across is unique and gorgeous and plays very well... I AM TRULY BLESSED...
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So I tuned her up and adjusted the action, these are TI14s, I think the guitars been spending too much time in a case, not getting played. I'm correcting that tomorrow. I think I stress d myself making one more purchase. It's time to exhale a long while. I've sure scored some amazing dream guitars. And yes the first couple tunes are for Mom, as an good Irish lad would know.
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BM and MG:
Am I correct in understanding that the 18" HJS is the same as an acoustic Super Eagle with a 25" scale, 1 3/4" nut, and Rose hardware/trim?
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Originally Posted by Hammertone
You gotta realize I am a little hamstrung in answering your question: both the instruments I have are custom builds. The HJS18 I have is 3 1/2 inches deep, just measured it. The flamed out Super Eagle I got earlier in the week is 3 inches deep. If I shot from the hip answered you (at this moment in time) I would say the custom Super Eagle is my current favorite. But I haven't had a chance to acquaint myself with the 18 inch HJS... I think I'm gonna call the flamed out custom Super Eagle Big Bertha, after the huge rail mounted artillery piece from WWII... And this 18 inch HJS Rosie, like the Jackson Brown song Rosie. Now I'm outta here for a little while.
Big
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If that's true, that means Heritage would have pulled out all the stops for this single guitar, for I've not seen a single other Super Eagle with a 25" scale, and 1.75 nut. Some builder request had some pull. I'm wondering if BM's guitar was built personally for a dealer, and not a customer, as so many other Heritage guitars have been. Originally Posted by Hammertone
3.5 " in depth? Are you certain BM!? That's akin to your former S400. If that's true yours is now the second deepest archtop build of any Heritage guitar I'm aware of. With that extra depth, your guitars acoustic volume must be exceptional! Funny, I don't recall Mark mentioning the guitars depth, for I'd have taken special note of that, as most SE's are 3" in depth. And a single humbucker SE I recently sold had a depth of 3.25", which after experiencing that guitar for several years I believe is a depth more suited for the SE. It was a noticeably different guitar at the greater depth. Originally Posted by BigMikeinNJ
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Just measured it again:
JS 3 3/8 (a little more toward 3 1/2)
Super Eagle custom 3 on the nose
Remember these are custom builds, what can I say.
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From a small factory builder's perspective, different rim depths can typically be used with the same jigs and production processes, with very little alteration to production work flow.
Same for using a 25" scale neck on a guitar body that typically uses a 25.5" scale neck - so long as the neck joint design is shared between models, it is as simple as swapping one neck for another. The bridge will sit .25" closer to the neck/body joint, which is inconsequential to production workflow.Last edited by Hammertone; 09-15-2016 at 01:04 PM.
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I doubt it. I have both, a HJS and an acoustic super eagle. Even if my HJS would be 18", which it is not, it would not feel close to the SE. The top on the HJS is more resonant, the neck (understandably) feels different. The HJS is more crisp/throaty/bright (for the lack of a better word). I guess Big Mike is now in a position to directly compare the 18" versions, bit my anticipation is that they're different. The different depths certainly also contribute. Originally Posted by Hammertone
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Well I meant to say something yesterday but with lawyers and bankers calling and the guitar coming in late I was plumb tuckered out. I was just playing the 18 Rosie and singing real old Elvis songs. Yeah I may not be making Johnny Smith's spirit happy doing it but It's Now Or Never sure sounds good outta this HJS. JOE I can feel the difference in comfort in the 25 inch neck. It's nice.
But the laugh out loud moment is the top has a flaw. And it doesn't anger me, actually it made me think of our dear friend Patrick and his problem when making the 18 inch Unity and probably the Super Patrick. Finding a billet large enough for an 18 inch guitar that doesn't have a flaw pop up when doing the carve. Here she is, like I said when I see it I think of the guy I never met, never talked to, Patrick. This photo is for you Paisan...
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Big, that is not a flaw. It's a beauty mark!
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If it's the mineral streak you are referring to, that is an important little spot..
MG and I actually used that mark to identify this as Don Deans guitar. True story.
And yes, 25" scale = magic.
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It is a thinner top compared to the usual Super Eagle. This is a tap tuned acoustic guitar with a floating pup.
Heritage cannot go deeper than 3 3/8". But these are handmade instruments to a large degree. It could be slightly deeper by accident.
When I took the guitar to Heritage for a setup and to get the history on it, they remembered this one because it was built for a friend of a couple of the owners. They didn't see the mineral streak as a flaw and neither did the buyer, Don Dean. BTW, Aaron Cowles didn't see mineral streaks as a flaw, but Patrick didn't like it during the build of the 18" Unity. But that's a different story.
The spruce on the HJS is tight grained with very nice silking. These features are said to be indicators of better tonewood. It is slower growth with a higher density. Further, Aaron tap tuned the guitar and presented it to his old friend, Don Dean.
Another bit of trivia, this was one of the last guitars the Don kept as he was dying and liquidating his huge primo guitar collection for medical bills.
Further again, it says something that when I brought the guitar to Heritage 20 years after it was built that the factory owners said, " Hey, that's Don's guitar."
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OK. So the 18" HJS is the same as a fully acoustic Super Eagle that has a tap-tuned, x-braced top by Aaron Cowles, but with a 25" scale, 1 3/4" nut, and Rose hardware/trim. Except for variations in rim depth, of course. Originally Posted by Marty Grass
Kewl. Originally Posted by Marty Grass
Last edited by Hammertone; 09-15-2016 at 10:18 PM.
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Forget the 6 fret stretch. Just look at the comfortable playing position Don was doing this in. Effortless. God, I would love to have been in on that little jam session.
That guitar was in Legendary company. Don played with Merle Travis. Hung out with Scotty Moore, was friends with Chet Atkins and had a collection of over 100 guitars.. Super 400's, L5's, guitars that Billy Byrd played..And the guitar that he was left with on his dying day?? This marvelous 18" Heritage Johnny Smith. With a Rose on the pickguard. Wow.
Mikey and MG, you guys are lucky.
JD
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Thanks to wintermoon, I've located a 1993 HJS via Artisans Guitars in Franklin, Tennessee. I usually visit their site frequently, but had not seen it. It was literally just listed yesterday (I believe) - also listed on ebay I learned later. Its the antique finish (which is what I was looking for - I am partial to blondes, what can I say?) The original pickup was replaced by an Armstrong, but the original is included in the sale. The tuners are Grovers - gold, not black - so I can only assume they have been replaced. Its in excellent condition, well maintained. I really didn't think I would find one so quickly - I know they are rare and don't come for sale very often. So when I saw it, I called the store with lots of questions and when I was satisfied, got it for a fair price. It will be here on Saturday and after spending a couple of hours with it, will decide if its gig worthy immediately - got a gig on Sunday and would love to use it.
Thanks to all for responded to my original post with comments - I owe wintermoon big time for this one. I'll post pics (assuming how I can figure out how to do that) some time soon.
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glad to help Fred,
I'd come hear you debut it but have a gig as well
hope it works out!
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Cool guitar! I think these are your pics?
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Fred,
the Heritage Johnny Smith is probably one of the best values in the jazz guitar world.
Ive told everyone here it was the best guitar I ever played. That one unseeded another Heritage, which was the DA2 that adorns Stringswingers avatar. Now it's the 2nd best guitar I've had since I was lucky enough to get my Gibson JS.
I was thinking of selling mine because I didn't think I'd ever play it again. Well, all I had to do is pick it up again. Like my 1st HJS, it's a smooth playing, sweet sounding love making jazz music machine and it ain't going anywhere!
i am sure you will love yours. It's always just right.
Enjoy!
Joe D
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Yep, that's it. Thanks for posting the pics!
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Jim - I thought about this one, too. But wanted to hold out for a JS. Heritage is a great guitar. I 'VE got a 2001 575, a slightly smaller version of a Gibson CES 4. Mine is a second - for reasons I have never understood. It's just a very responsive instrument. One day I will share the story of how I acquired it. That story alone is priceless.
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Congrats Fred! Heritage makes a fine guitar.
I tried a Heritage 535 years ago. Compared to the Gibson 335, it was very bright so I sold it (and went back to the Gibson 335). A few other Heritage guitars that I played were also brighter than their Gibson counterparts. I now realize that Heritage, by design builds their guitars lighter, with thinner tops, which in a way is befitting of their name. That is how it was done in the 20's and 30's. I think it is MOST important to not overcrank the fingers tailpiece or use too heavy of a string gauge with a lightly constructed Heritage guitar, otherwise the top will sink (I know of a few guys who had the tops sink on their Heritage guitars and now speak disparagingly about the Company).
Joe D. Sold me his Heritage built D'Angelico II New Yorker earlier this year. It was carved with a thicker top. by design than the usual Heritage carved archtop (JP Moats wanted it to be as much like a D'Angelico as possible) and it is in fact, as warm a guitar (My preference) as any Gibson that I have played. So those guys at Heritage do build them with various degrees of "fragileness".
Let us know how you like it. (It is a Heritage Johnny Smith, what's not to like?)
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The "2" on the back of the headstock is more common that you might think. Originally Posted by FredH
There was some inside shenanigans going on and some allowances were made for this type of thing to happen (sorry, that's as far as I'll go with that explanation). You are right. Most of the time, there is absolutely no difference in the quality of "2" guitar and a guitar without the 2.
If there is nothing wrong with the guitar, In the 2nd hand market, there should be little to no difference in the resale value.
Credit should be given to the person who actually discloses the fact that a "2" exists on the back of a headstock. Some people and some dealers, don't even disclose such a thing. And the "2" is in some cases is very difficult to notice, if you are not actually looking for it.
JD
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Most of the issues I've heard about owners of Heritage archtops have been with early issue Heritage guitars from the 80's. I've owned some 30 of them. I've placed TI Bebop 14's on every one of them. Nary an issue. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Yes, some Heritage archtops are brighter than other makes I've owned. And as you've noted that is by design. And its been my experience with the Heritage archtops I've owned that the Heritage guitars were far more acoustically vibrant, lively, and more pleasing to play acoustically.
If an archtop is functional, there is no such thing as a bad archtop, imo. For $3k, on the used market, compared to any other made in America carved wood archtop, a used Golden Eagle is a steal...that's without mentioning the obvious comparisons to its Gibson counterpart, which to my mind aren't valid comparisons for an L5 couldn't be more different than a Golden Eagle in my experience.
I hear you Joe. But, in my experience, any guitar with a "2nd" on the rear of the headstock will take a hit, and face greater scrutiny. If that weren't the fact I'd own one of the many Gibson ES175 CC's floating around for the past 2 years with "2nd's" on the read headstock. Apparently there were many of those that circulated from Gibson. I've seen some half dozen of them just this year alone. I've yet to see a single one sell. Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
Fact is, if you have an option for a guitar with a 2 on the headstock vs. an archtop without, which are you going to buy? A reseller doesn't need the hassle of dealing with a 2 on the headstock, especially in this tough market. Buyers lowball sellers as it is...imagine how much less buyers want to offer with a 2nd. It's not worth the hassle from my perspective. But what do I know, I've only sold a few
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Yes, the Dot 63 that I mentioned previously was an Epiphone Elitist, modeled after the Gibson 335. It is a heavier guitar, comparable to the Gibson model I played. I've never played the Heritage version, as I have come to appreciate more a full bodied archtop. I'll let you all know about my new acquisition. From what I've read, its a pretty light guitar and since I will be using it for jazz stuff, I prefer lighter strings, although acoustically they do not sound as full as heavier ones. Thanks for the kind words.
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Did it sound anything like this?? Originally Posted by FredH
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