Gibson ES-350 - Why Is It Special?

**Greentone** · 06-07-2016, 04:11 PM

Wow! There are very few ES-250 guitars in existence. Nice to be able to have played one. Looks like a one piece back--probably laminated. That may contribute to the dull acoustic sound. Slaman's bodies are all carved.

Your commemorative 250 from DS sounds very lively in your clips.

**neatomic** · 06-07-2016, 04:18 PM

poor mans-

epi zephyr blues deluxe..all maple, 25.5, 17".. extra p90 (or two)

Gibson ES-350 - Why Is It Special?-zephyrbluesdeluxe-jpg

cheers

**wintermoon** · 06-07-2016, 04:22 PM

most all 250's were laminated backs except for Christian's personal blonde 250, which had a new carved 2 piece back installed @ some point.

**Jim Soloway** · 06-07-2016, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Now, having put in a big plug for the post-War laminated Gibsons, let me say that the pre-War, solid-topped Gibson electrics (the ES-150 and 250, in particular) are indescribably great guitars. I have spent a considerable amount of time behind both a Gibson ES-150 from 1937 and a Gibson-made Recording King M-5 that had the Roy Smeck (equivalent of the Charlie Christian) cobalt magnet pickup system by Gibson installed. These guitars are simply unbeatable as jazz electrics, IME.

Alas, I haven't played a 250 (only 70 were built), but you can listen to Fred.archtop's Slaman DS-250 Charlie Christian 100-year Commemorative model on his YouTube clips. On the clips the guitar sounds fabulous. I think that Slaman has done a super job of recreating a guitar that brings back the mojo of the pre-War Gibson.

Great sounding guitar/recording.

**cgratham** · 06-07-2016, 05:35 PM

I have nothing of value to add about the ES-350, but just want to say that Fred Archtop - you gotta be the hippest cat around. I love your playing. I love your posse of guitars. And seriously, who else who can rock a neck scarf like that?

You must be living life right.

Cheers, Chris

Originally Posted by Greentone

**lawson-stone** · 06-07-2016, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

L.S., for reference it's about the same as your Aria.

Hey I have a Sebring L5 clone... I wonder if I could basically trick it out as an ES350 clone? Install P90 type pickups, the appropriate tailpiece... might be a fun project. My Aria is my Poor Man's L5ces, the Sebring could be my Poor Man's ES350!

**wintermoon** · 06-08-2016, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Hey I have a Sebring L5 clone... I wonder if I could basically trick it out as an ES350 clone? Install P90 type pickups, the appropriate tailpiece... might be a fun project. My Aria is my Poor Man's L5ces, the Sebring could be my Poor Man's ES350!

I know very little about modern production guitars, but have heard some very nice reviews.
your old Aria may be a 'poor man's L-5CES', and not a bad analogy, but aside from the big diff--a carved top on the Gibby, they hold their own pretty well.
I usually gig w/my '69 L-5, but I could live w/ my Aria PE-180, a really well made, excellent playing/sounding guitar that I use on one of my weekly gigs where I don't want to risk using the old L-5.

**oldane** · 06-08-2016, 07:04 AM

The ES350 came in three versions:

ES 350 produced from 1947 to 1956. 25.5" scale. P90 PUs. TOM in the last year of production

ES350T produced from 1955 to 1963. 23.5" scale (same as Byrdland). Thinline. P90s until 1957, then humbuckers. Pointed cutaway from 1960. Used by Chuck Berry among others.

ES 350T reintroduced 1979-81, 1992-93 and 1998-99. Now with 25.5" scale. Of course humbuckers and TOM.

(Source: Gruhns Guide to Vintage Guitars)

One may also include the Tal Farlow as it is essentially the same guitar as the full size 350 with a different cosmetic trim - and humbuckers.

**oldane** · 06-08-2016, 07:18 AM

The ES350 came in three versions:

ES 350 produced from 1947 to 1956. 25.5" scale. P90 PUs. TOM in the last year of production

ES350T produced from 1955 to 1963. 23.5" scale (same as Byrdland). Thinline. P90s until 1957, then humbuckers. Pointed cutaway from 1960. Used by Chuck Berry among others.

ES 350T reintroduced 1979-81, 1992-93 and 1998-99. Now with 25.5" scale. Of course humbuckers and TOM.

(Source: Gruhns Guide to Vintage Guitars)

One may also include the Tal Farlow as it is essentially the same guitar as the full size 350 with a different cosmetic trim - and humbuckers.

I like the full scale 350 a lot. I like its cosmetic trim - tasteful and restrained.

**lawson-stone** · 06-08-2016, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

I know very little about modern production guitars, but have heard some very nice reviews.
your old Aria may be a 'poor man's L-5CES', and not a bad analogy, but aside from the big diff--a carved top on the Gibby, they hold their own pretty well.
I usually gig w/my '69 L-5, but I could live w/ my Aria PE-180, a really well made, excellent playing/sounding guitar that I use on one of my weekly gigs where I don't want to risk using the old L-5.

Actually I should have said "relatively" poor-man's L5ces. The Aria Pro II PE180 (or its differently-banded Matsumoku-made equivalent) very good to excellent condition sells in the $1800-$3000 range. It's inexpensive relative to an L5ces, but not cheap!

For a true poor-man's L5ces something like a Korean-made guitar, a Samick or Sebring, is a better suggestion.

I find my PE180 to be easily one of the most finely made and good-playing/sounding guitars I've ever owned.

The neck is just juicy-sweet, and that big old fat body just throbs.

**lawson-stone** · 06-08-2016, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

The ES350 came in three versions:

(snip)

One may also include the Tal Farlow as it is essentially the same guitar as the full size 350 with a different cosmetic trim - and humbuckers.

I like the full scale 350 a lot. I like its cosmetic trim - tasteful and restrained.

I'm puzzled. How the the TF be essentially the same if the 350 was s full-depth archtop, 3 3/8" depth, and I hear the TF is 3" or a hair under?

For those who like the "full depth" instrument, the 3" thick guitar is not essentially the same.

Or am I mistaken? As you know, that has happened before! Please help me out if I have this wrong.

**oldane** · 06-08-2016, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

I'm puzzled. How the the TF be essentially the same if the 350 was s full-depth archtop, 3 3/8" depth, and I hear the TF is 3" or a hair under?

For those who like the "full depth" instrument, the 3" thick guitar is not essentially the same.

Or am I mistaken? As you know, that has happened before! Please help me out if I have this wrong.

My source (the Gruhn book) doesn't mention the exact body thickness, so you may well be right. However, I don't expect 3/8" difference in thickness to make a significant difference in the amplified sound of a plywood guitar. I would expect the varying thickness over the years of the plywood to have a greater impact. FWIW, I have always considered the Tal Farlow to be a 350 with fancier trim but I like the looks of the 350 better. I never liked the simili scroll on the TF - seems a bit too artsy to me.

**lawson-stone** · 06-08-2016, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

My source (the Gruhn book) doesn't mention the exact body thickness, so you may well be right. However, I don't expect 3/8" difference in thickness to make a significant difference in the amplified sound of a plywood guitar. I would expect the varying thickness over the years of the plywood to have a greater impact. FWIW, I have always considered the Tal Farlow to be a 350 with fancier trim but I like the looks of the 350 better. I never liked the simili scroll on the TF - seems a bit too artsy to me.

I agree on the scroll trim on the TF. Every time I think I'd like one, I think about that and the feeling goes away.

Like I said, for those who really like the thicker body, that 3/8" matters. I think it likely is more a matter of intuitive or subjective feeling that anything demonstrable. I know I like it.

I suspect in my case, it's that I came up playing flat-tops and classical guitars, which norm at 3.5" or thicker, and skinny guitars just feel awkward to me.

But in a blindfold test, I doubt I'd be able to play them and separate them.

"As you get closer to the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense."—Thornton Wilder

**nopedals** · 06-08-2016, 09:24 AM

Probably worth mentioning as well: The ES-150/300/350s were all thin laminates. This has been discussed before on the board in threads about early ES-175s. Sometime in the mid-60s Gibson went to a heavier laminate (some say to avoid warranty claims for cracks, others speculate for better feedback control, or perhaps the thin stuff just because harder to source).

I don't think that any of the asian copies were thin laminates; Sadowsky was the first guy I know of who went back to using thin laminates when he introduced the Jim Hall model, and he noted in posts on RMMGJ at that time that he had a heck of a time sourcing the stuff.

To address the OP, this is another thing that makes the old ES-350 "special."

**Greentone** · 06-08-2016, 10:10 AM

The Aria Pro II PE-180 and its stablemates (same guitar sold under other trade names, e.g., Memphis, Carlo Robelli, Epiphone--all made by Matsumoku) were all thin laminates. It's what makes them so lively. I've often thought that in many ways this guitar was more of a reproduction of the ES-350, but with L-5/Super-400 level trim. In any event, it is a very nice guitar. Matsumoku definitely used the thin laminates from the 70s into the 80s.

**oldane** · 06-08-2016, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Greentone

The Aria Pro II PE-180 and its stablemates (same guitar sold under other trade names, e.g., Memphis, Carlo Robelli, Epiphone--all made by Matsumoku) were all thin laminates. It's what makes them so lively. I've often thought that in many ways this guitar was more of a reproduction of the ES-350, but with L-5/Super-400 level trim. In any event, it is a very nice guitar. Matsumoku definitely used the thin laminates from the 70s into the 80s.

Some of the younger makers have also used thinner laminates in an attempt to get closer to the old Gibson sound of the 1950s. Tom Painter used thin laminates which he made himself, when he was in business. His laminates differed in the woods used. My P-350T has a three layer laminate with a thicker center layer of mahogany and two very thin cosmetic outer layers of maple. For practical purposes, I suppose it could be called a mahagany guitar. I'm not sure, but I think Roger Borys also used thinner laminates. He too made his laminates himself and also provided Jimmy D'Aquisto with laminates.

BTW, I think that the transistion to thicker laminates in Gibson guitars set in already around 1960. My 1961 sample of the 175 has thick laminates and the guitar is quite heavy. Maybe there was a transition period where new thicker stock was used along with older thinner stock.

**lawson-stone** · 06-08-2016, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Greentone

The Aria Pro II PE-180 and its stablemates (same guitar sold under other trade names, e.g., Memphis, Carlo Robelli, Epiphone--all made by Matsumoku) were all thin laminates. It's what makes them so lively. I've often thought that in many ways this guitar was more of a reproduction of the ES-350, but with L-5/Super-400 level trim. In any event, it is a very nice guitar. Matsumoku definitely used the thin laminates from the 70s into the 80s.

Just for reference, I mic'd the 3 instruments I have close at hand, at the top of the "bass" side F-hole. Hard to get a good angle, but I think I got a fair comparison:

Aria Pro II PE180-0.175"
Gibson ES165 (1999)-0.2"
Gibson L50 (1954)-0.14" (solid top)

I suspect that, over the entire surface of both plates, the relative difference between .175" and .2" (assuming both vary consistently against each other as actual thickness changes (valid?)) would be significant for acoustic performance. Maybe weight too, on a subtle scale.

**nopedals** · 06-08-2016, 11:02 AM

The L50 is not a laminate; it is a carved top (although perhaps not as delicately carved as higher end models like the L4, L7, or L5C).

Many asian guitars are solid spruce but not carved; kind of the worst of both worlds.

**lawson-stone** · 06-08-2016, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by nopedals

The L50 is not a laminate; it is a carved top (although perhaps not as delicately carved as higher end models like the L4, L7, or L5C).

Many asian guitars are solid spruce but not carved; kind of the worst of both worlds.

I know that. That's why the word "solid top" appears after the information. I just had it here and thought it'd be worth tossing into the mix.

**lawson-stone** · 06-08-2016, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by nopedals

The L50 is not a laminate; it is a carved top (although perhaps not as delicately carved as higher end models like the L4, L7, or L5C).

Many asian guitars are solid spruce but not carved; kind of the worst of both worlds.

I actually disagree with this last statement. I like my Peerless Monarch "solid-formed" guitar very very much. It has a lovely tone and I know the solid wood will open up and evolve over time. Gibson also seems to think solid-formed is a valid route, and everyone here who has played the new Gibson solid-formed guitar thinks it's a keeper.

I don't consider "laminate" to be bad, so "worst" seems to me a wrong characterization.

**nopedals** · 06-08-2016, 12:08 PM

Lawson: Literally seconds after posting I edited my note about the L50 to reflect that you had it correct in your note; unfortunately, this site sometimes hangs when you do edits (at least on my computer), so my edit never showed up. My apologies.

Re solid tops, I was referring to 90s asian boat anchors that advertised themselves as "solid spruce tops" and featured floating pickups as a marketing ploy to fool consumers into thinking they were getting guitars with credible acoustic sound. Some older harmony and gretsch models made an honest attempt to get decent acoustic sound with solid non-carved tops. The new Gibson has been getting high marks (but ought to at its price point).

**lawson-stone** · 06-08-2016, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by nopedals

Lawson: Literally seconds after posting I edited my note about the L50 to reflect that you had it correct in your note; unfortunately, this site sometimes hangs when you do edits (at least on my computer), so my edit never showed up. My apologies.

Re solid tops, I was referring to 90s asian boat anchors that advertised themselves as "solid spruce tops" and featured floating pickups as a marketing ploy to fool consumers into thinking they were getting guitars with credible acoustic sound. Some older harmony and gretsch models made an honest attempt to get decent acoustic sound with solid non-carved tops. The new Gibson has been getting high marks (but ought to at its price point).

Hey no problem. I get that about the slow updates when we edit. And yes, you're right about especially some of the cheaper Korean and Chinese made guitars, though even there we're seeing some quality improvement.

All the best!

**floatingpickup** · 06-11-2016, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

I'm curious about the Gibson ES 350. I know Barney Kessel swore by it. But it's a 17" archtop with P90s. That's cool, but what makes the ES 350 really different from an L5ces or an L7ces?

What's the mojo of the ES 350?

Has anyone here had any experience with the the early three-knob version of the ES-350? They had two p90s, each with their own volume control, and one master tone control. It seems to me that it would be like the middle position of the toggle switch with standard wiring. If you turned the rear pickup right down, you would just have the front pickup. But, would having that extra pickup in the circuit have any impact? Just wondering.
Keith

**Burrellesque** · 06-17-2016, 08:42 PM

I have a 1952 Gibson ES-350N. It's the 2 volume 1 master tone configuration, but could have left the factory early in 1953 (FON is 1952).

It is one of only a few I have seen where the neck pickup is positioned closer to the fingerboard as in the 2 volume 2 tone knob variant (1953 onwards).

To answer floatingpickup, when either pickup is turned right down it doesn't seem to be in the circuit at all.

To me it's the perfect Gibson arch top. The P90s are incredible! The combination of 17" laminate and 25.5" scale is ideal. Hard to believe that Gibson have made so few guitars with this combination.