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Ok, I have wanted to post here for awhile, but have restrained myself due to not wanting to be banned from here...lol. Stringswinger, you really started one here...lol.
A few simple points from a very Conservative right wing individual with a degree in Political Science specializing in Theo-Politics, and a Masters in Military Science, that took an oath to defend my Country and my Constitution from enemies foreign AND domestic, who spent 29 years in Special Operations in the Intelligence community, and has seen things, done things, and know things that I cannot EVER talk about, and obviously PROUD to be an American, and buy American whenever and wherever I can....
A guitar is basically 6 strings over wood(usually) with a couple of things to control sound...pots, switches, whatever. You need to buy the one that you can justify affording that will meet your needs for sound, looks, and feel. A guitar YOU can justify, not anyone else. Yes, I will ask opinions here as I trust you guys knowing I will get differing opinions, but as long as they are based on fact, and not pre-conceived prejudices. I have guitars that are American, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and Canadian. I have a couple partscasters that are true mutts, parts from who knows where...but a guitar is a guitar. Yes, I will be getting a Heritage, and I have a Gibson on lay-away, but only because I want them for what they are to ME, and not where they were built.
Motorcycles are fun toys to have. I have been riding Harley's since 1983, not a yuppie look-at-me newcomer hoping to impress girls through some mid-life crisis bulls&**%. I have owned BMW's since 1980, always the GS models starting with the first one, the GS80. I currently have sold all of my motorcycles to pay for my cancer surgeries and follow up treatments, and next bike will be either a Triumph or a Victory...too many frauds riding Harleys nowadays with new tatoos riding sleeveless to look all bad ass. Posers...
Politically, unless an individual has truly read the Constitution and the Federalist Papers, they only know what mainstream media wants them to know. If an individual crticizes this country that lives in another country, I really don't care about their opinion. Yes...Trump...not my first choice, but at this point the absolute best choice for a few reasons....of course the "anybody but that felonious fraud Hillary" reasoning...but also because our ENEMIES DO NOT WANT TRUMP! They all wanted Obama, and look what we got...
So, if I am still allowed to participate on these forums after this post, I really do need an opinion on a couple of things...lol. Threads to be posted in a little while...
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05-10-2016 12:23 PM
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My 3 Gibsons are great instruments (in my opinon) and well within my reasonable price limit.
You can play a Gibson for a very reasonable price (my limits are 2K for solid body and 4K for Arch Top)
I've got the tone and playability I was aiming for and could not be happier and yes I also got the headstock...
Are they perfect ? No but they are where it matters for me!
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Frank,
I have been riding Harley's and playing Gibsons since the 70's. I know what I like, and IMO, I play and ride the best. I plan on being around another 30-40 years and Harleys and Gibsons will be with me for the rest of the journey. I am pretty familiar with the Constitution and the Federalist papers (having practiced law fulltime for 15 years). Well worth reading for all of the world's citizens for sure.
I do think that it is appropriate to consider the political environment that a product is manufactured in. If it was possible, I would buy zero products from places like China and Vietnam (or Saudi Arabia for that matter). When we purchase products made in places run by tyrannical leaders, we do, to some extent, support tyranny.
In any discussion about which guitar to buy, this merits consideration. To ban this discussion because of the risk of offense to those who are thin-skinned is a form of tyranny, in and of itself.
Thank you for your service to America. Our veterans deserve much more gratitude than they receive.
Cheers,
Marc
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I dont think it's as easy as saying, Gibson are selling well so they aren't over priced.
According to Gibson's own prices they are over priced, as the margins are highly flexible. They use the classic trick of over pricing then letting you 'have a deal'. This in itself s disshonest behaviour and encourages shops and retailers to act in a non professional manner, if they so chose.
They also have the retailers backs, as again, if you can sell Gibson's you can make more money due to the shadiness of the prices.
So what you end up with is big stores with a lot of marketing clout pushing guitars from gibson that they have a further vested interest with. You're basically being attacked by two entities before you've even walked into a big chain.
Gibson also act like mafioso pushing small shops around, threatening them, making them take second rate stock or owe their retailers position which a ship cannot do, as it will pass the business over to a competior.
What Im saying is, Gibson doesnt act fairly or treat is associates fairly and all this leads to lack of transparency to the buyer.
In 2012 Gibson cooked their books to show greater sales, dumping thousands of unwanted Gibsons on the retailers. They were being sold for peanuts. So if you think Gibson are doing well and selling huge, you will never really no. Gibson will just one day announce the end and all you guys would have been thinking "I thought it was going so well"
Look at tall the stock they had to dump from last year.
Things at Gibson's are not going well at all. I'll give them 5-10 years.
I mean come on, how many more reproductions of the 59 less paul for $11,000 are they gonna sell. Im betting that market fired up pretty quick.
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Thanks Marc, and I wasn't pointing out you in my response, it was a general response. As to Harleys, you know what I mean about the majority of the "new" harley owners...not all of them, but a lot of them. Makes me laugh sometimes. I was thinking about the new Roadglide, but financially will have to stay well below that for another year or two...so, just to get back to riding was thinking about grabbing a Triumph Scrambler. Not too expensive, but at least not trying to be a Harley look alike. A golf buddy wants to trade me a 2012 1200 Sportster he doesn't ride anymore for one of my sniper rifles...I am 6ft and built like a fullback...I will look like a circus bear on a tricycle on that thing!
I agree, if it was possible to never buy from certain countries, but...maybe one day soon.
Gibson...have gone through 13 Les Pauls in the last 8 months...keep taking them back. Gawd awful...for the ultimate in getting what you pay for, my buddy plays jazz professionally, and he has Epiphone Les Pauls, who Les himself said are the true Les Pauls, and changes the wiring harness and pickups, and I keep trying to steal one of his. Somehow and for some reason, whenever I go to his house he takes Epiphone Les Paul inventory before I leave...WTF...lol. I think I am going to have him do a Korean Epi LP that I have and see what happens. Yet, I have a Gibson ES-137 on layaway, I just love how it sits in my lap, how my hands find the fretboard, and how I can get MY jazz sound out of it. Not many people on here would think "ES-137-the ultimate jazz box", but considering my friends call my sound "denim Jazz" or "cowboy surf jazz", it works for me...as does my Epi Wildkat...lol.
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Headshot and Stringswinger
You guys are WAAAYYY above my league and I am really enjoying the back and forth between 2 absolute gentlemen.
Headshot, Thank you for your service to our great country. I really mean it. One of the things that folks don't usually factor into why our labor costs are so high here in the US is that as a country we use a lot of our resources (taxes) being the police of the world. I am so fortunate to be American and I am proud to be born into a society that no matter what, always tries to do what's right.
I don't ride Harleys though.. I prefer Cannondales..
Joe D.
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"Eddie, dude by the name of 'Harris', they loved you more in Paris..."
Originally Posted by Klatu
Yes.
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Well said. Originally Posted by rabbit
It's a great time to be a guitarist. There are so many choices at good value. In 1968, I paid $3 for Black Diamond strings and thought I was getting something exotic. My old man saw me studying a Gretsch catalog as I was wanting a White Falcon. How much he wanted to know. Two thousand I said. He said oh. I dropped down to an Epiphone Sorrento. My local music store (only choice then!) wanted $350. I worked the summer for a buck forty an hour and bought Fender's Coronado , their response to the 335. $175 new included case. At 3% inflation, that Fender would be priced today at $800. We get a lot of value now partly because of lower priced labor and, I think, an oversupply of guitars on the world market and like Harley motorcycles, any baby boomer that wants one, has one. Result: low prices.
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Production technology has improved. CAD-Cam and other techniques (laser cutting, etc.) have lowered production costs. Probably average standard quality has improved, and probably fewer lemons being produced, as well. Originally Posted by goatrace
It's a great time to be a guitarist. ... We get a lot of value now partly because of lower priced labor and, I think, an oversupply of guitars on the world market and like Harley motorcycles, any baby boomer that wants one, has one. Result: low prices.
I think the quality gap between high-end instruments and entry-level instruments has diminished greatly. Nowadays, some minor upgrades may be all it takes (if that) to make a lower cost instrument into a "contender". I'm not sure that was always true.Last edited by goldenwave77; 05-10-2016 at 03:06 PM.
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I checked some Heritages online today and thought wow, those are everything Gibson should be and isn't anymore. Stunningly beautiful guitars at a rational price, while the "reasonable" comparable Gibsons (~3.5-4.0k, Gibson prices start where Heritage prices end, roughly) looked cheap, almost as if botched on purpose, in comparison.
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Im told it is a Chinese curse "may you live in interesting times"
in the early 70's I worked at a newspaper..one of the front page stories read "world population hits Three Billion"
gas was 30-40 cents a gallon and you could buy a lot of groceries for $25
gibsons and fenders were the main instruments in almost all the bands I saw in those days
all that has changed..and never to be again-- today I have TWO major products that are made in USA..one is the les paul..
is it worth it...a Gibson that is...well..depends upon what your willing to spend and the present quality of the guitars
in 2008 Gibson produced a Les Paul classic antique..retail $1799 with case (+tax & shipping =2k+)..great fit & finish..was I lucky or did the one made before and after have the same quality in the build..reviews from several sites - not gibsons - give it top marks..who knows for sure .. I love this one
had a pro setup on it ($25) .. and it still is my workhorse..jazz blues fusion country and rock of course
are there better guitars like it...of course..there are many brands now that did not exist 10-15 yrs ago that make great guitars..many top players use them and many have custom guitars in the mold of a les paul or a strat or tele..
remember .. "it is a poor worker that blames their tools.."
would I buy it today...perhaps .. I would shop it against other brands in the same price range..
next guitar: fender 2016 elite telecaster...$1700-w/case....many "custom made" tele-clones don't play/sound this good out of the box..and yeah I want a fender..so to me this is worth the price and I am willing to pay it..
I hope..the workers at American guitar companies are cared for with good wages and bennies ..
even in these economic trying times - I, like many here, want to believe American companies still cares about..well.. AmericaLast edited by wolflen; 05-10-2016 at 04:18 PM.
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I sold my Gibson and bought an Eastman, it´s better made and sounds better in my opinion regardless of where it is made or how much it costs. I also have a USA strat that is wonderful, have played awesome Gibsons and drive a Toyota that was made in the UK, just opened a Belgian beer, have friends who are working in Korea, japan and vietnam all of them are happy in their work, non of them is a republican but i also worked with a republican aircraft builder for a week around christmas, he was also a happy camper.
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I see a parallel between Gibson and Harley Davidson.
A history of ownership.
Heavy
Inconsistent quality
More image than substance.
Company run for the benefit of investors, and to enhance the stock value.
Suit happy.
I have owned a few Gibsons..
46 J-45
1922 Snakehead mandolin
Late 60s Gibson Heritage
WM-45
etc
As to bikes
14 BMWs from 1965 t0 1990 ( the later the lower the quality and this is form a former BMW of No America Factory employee)
2 Moto Guzzi LeMans
5 Moto Morinis
2 Bultaco Metrallas
2 Montessas
Benelli Tornado SS, not a wimpy S2
DKW164
NSU Super MAX
Yamaha YDS2
etc etc etc
I have also owned in excess of 100 guitars and 50 mandolins.
As to bicycles
Pinarello prison made all chrome all Campy 1961...
Girardengo 1962
Guerciotti 81
Somec all Campy 83 still own it
Phillipe 1984 ish.. Modelo and Assos etc
Phillips Fleur de Lis 1961
Miyata Aero Pro (still have it.. mish mash of Suntour Superbe and Campy)
Currently own the Somec and the Miytata Aero and a 1992 Cadex III all carbon and alloy
2012 Rivendell Hunqapillar.. my all time favorite
A shop full of "stuff" collected since 1959.
I also own somewhere between 6-10 guitars
one Banjo, a couple mandolins
2 Self made cavaquinhos
and 6 button accordeons dating from 1880 to present.Last edited by bohemian46; 05-10-2016 at 09:39 PM.
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And Gibson is somehow responsible for the fact that the business of music, which formerly allowed a fair number of musicians to make a living pursuing what they liked to do, is in the toilet?!
That's a bit much, don't you think?
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Too bad nobody came up with a (good) explanation why the prices for Gibson archtops nearly doubled in the last five years. Must a company secret.
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The real increase at the street level is about 16% to 20% since 2011, barring the True Historic 33% pricing increment debâcle in 2015. Didn't Fabiansey just score a new Crimson Custom L5 Wes Montgomery Wine Red for under $5200 ex-VAT? Originally Posted by Drifter
A new 2011 L-5CES ASB was streeting for about $6850 in 2011. I could have got it for under $6500 in 2011. It streets for a little over $8000 today.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 05-11-2016 at 05:42 AM.
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There sure are a few examples of exceptional good deals even today. But the average price paid is a different story. At least here in Germany. The wine red Wes went from 4.5k to 7.5 - 8k in 5 years.
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Why do Gibson archtops deserve their rarefied pricing? You cannot talk about any 17" carved archtop with two humbuckers in it without also saying, I wonder how it stacks up against the L-5CES?
When you are the gold standard, you set your price like you are the gold standard.
If you are a luthier you are sort of happy that Gibson sets the price that high. I cannot imagine how many luthiers will survive if the L-5CES were $3500 new and $2500 used today. There will be no Heritage, for that matter.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 05-11-2016 at 05:58 AM.
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Like the archtop making grimoires and the rainbow dust they took with them when they left Kalamazoo. No doubt Heritage would charge the same if they had access to this secret knowledge. Originally Posted by Drifter
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Drifter, you gotta account for the weakened Euro. The Euro bought a lot more US dollars 5 years ago. What about the revised MwSt and import duty and rising labour costs? All those are the doings of governments, global currency movements and the European Gibson importer's business costs. Hardly the fault of Gibson. Gibson raises its Minimum Advertised Prices about 3% to 4% yearly. It has done away with MSRP since 2014.
Last edited by Jabberwocky; 05-11-2016 at 06:17 AM.
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There is no secret knowledge. Heritage can only dream about pricing its archtops on par with Gibson's. Because Heritage knows, the market won't pay Gibson prices for Heritage guitars. Is the market stupid? Heritage won't sell a single archtop at Gibson prices. Originally Posted by m_d
There was a guy named Drew who tried to sell off his Super Eagle in mint condition on the Heritage Owners Club. He started at $3200 and gradually had to whittle it down to $2600 before someone bought it. Even Heritage fan boys know not to pay too much for a Heritage. Tells you everything you need to know. That's a Super Eagle, the supposed 18" equivalent to the Super 400CES, made in the original home of Gibson. Yadda...
If Heritage were undervalued, the market will recognise that and raise their prices on the secondary market.
It is not because Heritage won't charge Gibson prices. Heritage can't. Fine archtops but they really aren't Gibsons. And I am not talking about the brand name on the headstock.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 05-11-2016 at 06:31 AM.
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Every Gibson discussion involves Heritage. It is like a shark with a remora stuck to its ass.
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Is Heritage the G & L of the archtop world?
Patrick, who used to be a Heritage rep., had an expression when it came to the similarity between Heritage guitars and their Gibson counterparts. He called it "not flying too close to Air Force One." (Air Force One, for non-American forum participants is the Presidential plane. Pretty sure it flies with fighter escort on many of its trips.)
My old teacher, Peter Mazza, played a Heritage 535 as his ordinary "go to" guitar for practicing and teaching. He left his Gibson Super V home, and took it out for special occasions. I asked was it like a 335...and he said, it sort of is, but it is different.
G & L guitars, built in the EXACT Fender plant in Fullerton, CA that Fender used in its golden days, by a company under the (former) direction of Leo F., builds instruments which are similar to, but not exactly the same as, their Fender counterparts. I have heard that Leo F. thought that improvements were possible in his original designs. Maybe this is true, but maybe there was an unspoken agreement with Fender. (Some of his later guitars hearken back to the older Fender designs: Anyway, some of his later designs, like the G & L Commanche, were interesting and maybe achieved something, soundwise, that a stock Strat could not).
I have a Heritage 550, and it is superb. Got it 2nd hand from a forum member, and it beautifully constructed and appointed...all the trappings, natural finish, ebony bd., bound F-holes....the whole 9 yards, but more importantly it sounds great...rich, full articulate, with the laminate mid-range and slight dryness to the tone that is a defining feature of that type of construction. Would a Tal Farlow be different/better?..not quite sure....I'd have to A/B it in a store against the 550 before I made up my mind. If they are different, how much different, and is the price differential (roughly 50%) enough to sway me/you....different people will answer this question differently.
I guess I have the same question with an L5-CES and an Eagle Classic.Last edited by goldenwave77; 05-11-2016 at 08:20 AM.
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I read that story as the market will not pay Gibson prices for a guitar that is comparable or better than a similar Gibson. Therefor, Gibsons are well over priced based on name. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
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I will make no apology for my pride in Gibson guitars (and Harley-Davidson motorcycles). If some are off put by my feellings about American exceptionalism (ethnocentrism ?), then we will have to agree to disagree.
The Gibson Super 400, L-5 and Es-175 are the Platinum, Gold and Bronze standards by which all other archtops are judged and are priced accordingly.
One area of jazz guitar where another Nation holds the Gold standard is the Selmer style guitar (AKA Gypsy guitar or Maccaferri guitar). France's Selmer Company brought this guitar to the market in the 1930's (production ceased in the 1950's). The best (and most expensive) examples today are built by Dupont Guitares, a French Company. American efforts in this area have been good to excellent (from Dell Arte through Bob Holo's fine guitars), but ecen the best Holo guitar will not fetch the price of a Dupont Ville Reserve. And nor should it. Were I a Frenchman, I would take great pride in the luithery of Dupont (and JP Favino, another French maker whose work exceeds any American made example, both in quality and price).
Sports cars? The Italians win there with Ferrarris. Luxury cars? Britain takes the prize (hard to beat a Rolls...)
It is hard to be humble when you are the best, and I do not think being humble is all it is cracked up to be. Man's greatest achievements were rarely made by humble people.Last edited by Stringswinger; 05-11-2016 at 10:44 AM.
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