Acoustic amps vs jazz amps - what's the difference?

**No10shovel** · 03-14-2016, 04:30 AM

It all started when I tried out a couple of jazz arch tops in a Melbourne music shop. I tried a Loar LH 650 and a Stromberg (similar price, can't remember the model No.)

I had never played or even handled any Loar guitar until that point. I play a budget Ibanez Artcore jazz guitar of laminate construction, through an Ibanez WT-80 amplifier.

The guy in the shop plugged the guitars into one of the AER (acoustic only??) amplifiers and I was completely blown away by the sound; so much better than my home rig.

The Stromberg is of laminate construction, like my own guitar while the Loar is of solid construction throughout and yet both guitars sounded wonderful to my ears. I wanted to sell my WT-80 and buy an AER amp.

What's the difference then, between an acoustic and a jazz amp, physically and in terms of sound?

Sorry if this topic has been covered elsewhere on these forums but I haven't been able to find it.

Cheers

destinytot · 03-14-2016, 05:48 AM

I recently started using an AER Compact 60 for vocals + two guitars - a fine archtop with a floating pick-up, and a more modest acoustic archtop with a clip-on condenser mic - with a small mixer (Behringer Q802 USB) to get extra channels.

While I'm glad to be rid of the heavy and cumbersome 'suitcase'-style PA which I'd previously been using (for vocal and guitar mics), I do like the clean sound of my Evans RE200 amp - and also the 'grit' I can get by running a line out from its preamp to my Polytone.

But, regarding sound, my ideal guitar amp is valve - so although the portability of the AER made the decision a 'no-brainer', I had low expectations of the guitar sound.

Long story short, as a guitar amp, the AER is powerful and clean - perhaps too clean, but (fortunately) the addition of a pedal or preamp sorts that out.

I picked up an effective and inexpensive Joyo American pedal, which turns out to be a copy of a Tech21 Blonde.

This month I'm ordering the preamp which Reg uses with his AER Compact 60; TubePre V2 | PreSonus Like the AER, the PreSonus has a balanced output - ideal connectivity for playing live (perhaps for recording, too?).

I can't recommend the AER highly enough. (And I'm putting my Evans RE200 up for sale.)

**jorgemg1984** · 03-14-2016, 06:00 AM

Usually the difference is just the speaker - "jazz amps" use bass speakers and acoustic amps use full range speakers (or a combination of a pa speaker with a tweeter). Ideally eq frequencies would be different too but "jazz amp" makers can be lazy on that one...

Personally the WT-80 is not a very good amp and I have one (that I don't use). A good "jazz amp" sounds much better than the AER but the AER is indeed better than the WT-80. IMO of course.

**Franz 1997** · 03-14-2016, 06:40 AM

I agree with Jorge; most of the difference is the speaker, maybe also differences in input impedance and midrange turnover points, but these are relative details. Basically the twin cone amplifies very high frequencies, appropriate for acoustic guit but unnecessary for jazz guitar. Acoustic amps often have notch filters, for dialling out feedback, which also affect the overall sound by scooping midrange at a selected point.

Worth noting that these amps can have low headroom for arch top guitar due to the relatively low power ratings - eg 60W for the compact 60. They can get away with this for acoustic pickups, as the signal is often compressed by the pickup itself, but there might be a headroom issue with magnetic pickups.

AER themselves also market another amp, the 'cheeky D', which they describe as 'their first amp for electric guitars".
It weighs significantly more that the acoustic amps, over 30 lb, and is rated at 200W +. That should tell us something.

I find the sound of AER amps rather brittle for electric arch top use, although many players here use them because of their portability. There was some discussion of AER amps in a recent thread called ( I think) In praise of the Mambo 10 amp, or something like that.

destinytot · 03-14-2016, 06:57 AM

For me, on acoustic guitar, only a mic will do.

There's no doubt in my mind that acoustic amps are very effective for acoustic guitars. And I'd have to include my big archtop (I suspect that's partly due to its floating pick-up). I've been very impressed by the LR Baggs pick-up on my nylon.

But, for me, a mic is the only way. I think the size/scale of a performance/event makes a difference - though it needn't be a problem. At larger venues I still mic the guitar via the AER and send a (balanced) line to the main desk.

The intention behind the music is what really matters, not the tools we use - unless these are not at all fit-for-purpose.

Mind you, health matters too - which is why, for me, a little acoustic amp in a shoulder bag is perfect. And for 'jazz' tone, with a little help from a modelling pedal, its 6.5 kg 'outweighs' the mightiest valve amp. I'd still love a nice valve amp at home. One day...

**jorgemg1984** · 03-14-2016, 07:13 AM

One acoustic amp that sounds surprisingly good with archtops is the Roland AC-60 (and AC-90).

**Max405** · 03-14-2016, 09:46 AM

I have a Marshall AS50r has 2 - 8" speakers in it. The low notes on an Archtop with a magnetic pickup basically rips those little 8" speakers apart.
I totally agree with destinytot 1000%. An acoustic amp is voiced for microphones or Piezo pickups.

If you want one amp, get a jazz amp and tweak the EQ when you use it for acoustic purposes. Get yourself a phantom power device for mic's that need it. Most straight guitar amps wont have one.

**Grez** · 03-14-2016, 11:07 AM

This has been covered above but I'll add a little more detail that you all probubly know. Classic guitar speakers tend to roll off above 5 or 6kHz and have a rising and peaky response above 1kHz. Acoustic amp speakers have a much flatter response and at least an octave more HF extension, getting up to 10 or 20k by using HF drivers of some sort or multiple small drivers that have extended bandwidth.

Some jazz player find the tone of an acoustic amp to be amazing, from time to time a tele player does also because the extra clarity, but the sound is not "traditional" and most find it interesting but don't want to live with it as their main tone.

Disclosure, in addition be being an luthier, I have spent many many years as a speaker, amplifier and processor designer for companies like Apogee Sound and Mattrixx-n, The San Greal Acoustic Instrument Amplifier.

**Franz 1997** · 03-14-2016, 11:33 AM

Grez, you'll have a lot to contribute here!

**KirkP** · 03-14-2016, 12:40 PM

The speaker cabinets are also a major factor. I think most acoustic guitar amps optimize cabinet design for a flat response with the specific driver used, more like what one expects for a high-hi system. I think must electric guitar cabinets are more trial-and-error affairs. Of course there are exceptions.

**jorgemg1984** · 03-14-2016, 12:42 PM

Yeah but a lot of the "jazz amp" do the same... the WT-80 does it.

**Franz 1997** · 03-14-2016, 12:55 PM

This thread has reminded me of an amp I had that I'd totally forgotten - a fender accoustasonic. It had 2 8s and maybe 80w, not sure. I bought it before hendriksens and mambos were available here, and I wanted a change from polytones and didn't like the AER. It wasn't too bad, although certainly not as good as today's choices. Fortunately the pianist I was playing with at the time really liked it, and bought it, so my gain was his gain too. Not sure if these amps are still made..
It weighed a lot and looked great in brown tolex, but was only OK at best for electric arch top. Extended range it certainly wasn't....

**Cunamara** · 03-14-2016, 01:59 PM

One of the best tones I ever have gotten with my archtop was through an Acoustasonic.

**Nate Miller** · 03-14-2016, 02:19 PM

my God, I just looked up the price of those AER amps....man, you guys who can pony up that kind of money are my new role models! A 60 watt little combo amp is $1200 Samolians for starters...wow.

All of a sudden my little Polytone cube is sounding a whole lot better!

**Franz 1997** · 03-14-2016, 03:09 PM

That's nothing; their 'cheeky D ' guitar amp is £1,359 RRP in the UK, around $2K.

**medblues** · 03-14-2016, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Franz 1997

That's nothing; their 'cheeky D ' guitar amp is £1,359 RRP in the UK, around $2K.

38 lbs and $2300 at djangobooks

**jads57** · 03-14-2016, 05:41 PM

I've had the best luck using my Quilter Aviator 1x12" Combo for everything from Electric Rock,Blues,Jazz, to acoustic archtop, flat top. Really no need fo seperate amps anymore unless it makes you happy to carry extra gear,lol!

destinytot · 03-14-2016, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Nate Miller

my God, I just looked up the price of those AER amps....man, you guys who can pony up that kind of money are my new role models! A 60 watt little combo amp is $1200 Samolians for starters...wow.

All of a sudden my little Polytone cube is sounding a whole lot better!

Love Polytone.

Frankly, I resented forking out all that hard-earned money on the AER when it isn't even my ideal. But the fact is, making do with my other gear was putting a strain on me - literally, because of the weight - and was making travel difficult. (Not any more, I'm pleased to say.)

And the fact that the AER is so light and tiny, yet it's loud enough to use as a vocal PA (mounted on a speaker stand) as well as being a decent-enough amp for guitar, is what convinced me that the expense was warranted.

In that regard, my role model is mother. She used to say, "Buy right, or buy twice."

(Having had the opportunity to save up for it, I believe it would have been wrong not to have done so. The rule at home is that money for musical projects has to come from other musical projects - but I wouldn't have managed to save without my family's support. And I do my best to make sure this works both ways.)

**Nate Miller** · 03-14-2016, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Love Polytone.

Frankly, I resented forking out all that hard-earned money on the AER when it isn't even my ideal. But the fact is, making do with my other gear was putting a strain on me - literally, because of the weight - and was making travel difficult. (Not any more, I'm pleased to say.)

And the fact that the AER is so light and tiny, yet it's loud enough to use as a vocal PA (mounted on a speaker stand) as well as being a decent-enough amp for guitar, is what convinced me that the expense was warranted.

In that regard, my role model is mother. She used to say, "Buy right, or buy twice."

(Having had the opportunity to save up for it, I believe it would have been wrong not to have done so. The rule at home is that money for musical projects has to come from other musical projects - but I wouldn't have managed to save without my family's support. And I do my best to make sure this works both ways.)

this makes sense now. Using it for your vocal PA is a great idea. I always tell people that its not the music playing that I like, its the furniture moving I'm there for.

I used to gig on bass with a little Hartke kickback for the same reason. I was living up in town and had to haul gear up and down a fire escape. Being able to carry your PA in one hand is awesome. That in itself is worth every penny in my book.

that's what I like about my cube, but lately I've been fooling around with my little Fender practice amp. Its one of those new Mustangs

I'll tell you guys, these little modeling amps they are making now are pretty impressive.

**Doctor Jeff** · 03-14-2016, 09:06 PM

I have a Fishman Loudbox Artist as my main amp for all my guitars these days. I would describe it as having a pretty flat response. It does have a tweeter with a cut knob, but in my experience this doesn't affect the tone of magnetic pickups nearly as much as acoustics with piezos.

It is quite light and very loud, so no concerns with not being up to the challenge of playing in a group setting.

Obviously each amp has its own characteristics, but I think my archies sound great through this amp.

The only downside, if there is one in the jazz setting, it that one can't really overdrive it.

**No10shovel** · 03-14-2016, 11:32 PM

To everybody who has responded: thank you very much for the terrific answers and feedback; I know a lot more now, as a newbie, about this complex subject than I did. What a great community!

I'm thinking of selling my Ibanez WT80 and one of my valve amplifiers to buy a Cube 80, mostly because it has such a sweet clean channel, but also because it emulates other amps so well. Besides my Ibanez Artcore, I've got a Les Paul Traditional on which I have fitted Tomastik flat-wound strings, because it is so good for jazz on clean using the Gibson PAF neck pickup.

I'm thinking of selling my Vox AC15. The only reason I'm hanging on to it is for the Les Paul, but I reason that the Cube 80 should keep it happy with it's crunch ability when needed.

As I've been learning I've grown away from rock music and heavy overdrive & crunch and towards a cleaner sound. I did see that John Scofield is a big fan of the AC30 and watched his videos about the AC30 on YouTube, but I've never been able to make the AC15 work for me as a clean or jazz amp.

Thanks once again for your feedback guys & gals!

Cheers

**Frank67** · 03-15-2016, 02:11 AM

The AER is not evrybodies taste but it is a really good amp. I first did not like it. Funny, I never liked the sound of the AER in the room, but when I heard it recorded I thought 'wow', that sounds nice. Meanwhile I love the profile of the AER on the Kemper better than the AER itself (that is ironic of course). It sounds warm, detailed, very clean and just great, even with magnetic pickups. Running the AER into a guitar cabinet rather than using the slightly boxy 8" speaker is even better. That is one of the best jazztones I ever had.

destinytot · 03-15-2016, 04:19 AM

'Guitar cabinet' - now there's something I'd love try...

I was reminded of a unique experience a couple of years ago, when I had an opportunity to play through an enormous subwoofer which was part of a reggae sound system. That speaker was taller than me! (Man, that bass..!)

**silverfoxx** · 03-16-2016, 04:37 AM

Hi Mike.
I applaud your reasoning in acquiring the AER, doubling as a small PA
and guitar, I think perhaps some readers might not be aware that you
are a vocalist and guitarist. It's a good compromise, mind you I can't
imagine a queue forming to buy the 'cheeky d' AER .
Your RE200 must surely be adequate for home use ?, I have gone
completely OTT with a Fender 65 Custom "15" at home , which is almost
untransportable by myself, not having the build of Arnold Schwarzenegger.
For easy transport ,just for guitar, a Mambo fits the bill more than adequately.

**mambosun** · 03-16-2016, 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by No10shovel

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but it has been bugging me for some time

. It all started when I tried out a couple of jazz arch tops in a Melbourne music shop. I tried a Loar LH 650 and a Stromberg (similar price, can't remember the model No.)

I had never played or even handled any Loar guitar until that point. I play a budget Ibanez Artcore jazz guitar of laminate construction, through an Ibanez WT-80 amplifier.

The guy in the shop plugged the guitars into one of the AER (acoustic only??) amplifiers and I was completely blown away by the sound; so much better than my home rig.

The Stromberg is of laminate construction, like my own guitar while the Loar is of solid construction throughout and yet both guitars sounded wonderful to my ears. I wanted to sell my WT-80 and buy an AER amp.

What's the difference then, between an acoustic and a jazz amp, physically and in terms of sound?

Sorry if this topic has been covered elsewhere on these forums but I haven't been able to find it.

Cheers

Quick reply.
An amp for acoustic guitar is closer to Hifi, more bandwith, better transparency, flatter frequency response etc.. while an amp for electric guitar tends to color the sound: frequency range, level of dirt, etc... (eg: valve amp)