The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Couldn't decide whether this belongs here or in the software area but I tried out Jam Origins Midi Guitar software. It's a software package which does real-time pitch to midi conversion and blows away the tracking of the Ghost or Roland pickups. There's almost no latency and it tracks the low strings with no issues. I was able to play jazz tunes in 1/8th notes at greater than 300bmp with no issues.

    It's also polyphonic.

    For reference, I am running a machine which is an i7-3820, 32gb memory 512gb SSD, 64 bit windows 8.1

    A few issues I found:

    • Needs a computer or IOS tablet to run
    • Glitchy on certain chords containing #4. it gets a bit confused and renders bad notes. For example, if you play a C half diminished voiced with C Bb Eb Gb, it will render a B natural as the bass note!
    • I submitted the aforementioned issue to them and it took almost a week for them to get back to me and they merely said they knew about it but no indication when this would be fixed. Never heard back from them afterwards and it's now been 3 weeks!


    If they fix this but, the software would be an absolute winner. Supposedly, it does not require a huge amount of computer horsepower and they make a version for IOS. I would give the ios version a try but I have no audio input card for my ipad...
    Last edited by jzucker; 01-30-2016 at 12:51 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    The midi conversion in the IOS versions are comparable performance to the computer version - there might be a slight increase in latency, IME IOS devices don't quite get as low latency as a good computer when using the same interface.

    Jam Origin does listen to customer issues and does respond ... eventually. Bug reports tend to be fixed in the next update which could be many months away.

    Jam Origin's MIDI Guitar has been around for a few years, I'm really surprised one of the big MI companies (Yamaha, Roland, etc.) haven't bought the technology and put it in a pedal or rack device - this is an outstanding product.
    Last edited by MaxTwang; 01-28-2016 at 02:30 PM.

  4. #3
    I'm pretty sure they - like many others - have licenced the melodyne technology (Celemony | What is Melodyne?)

    So , the latency (no pun intended) of bug fixes is probably related to them being dependent on 3rd party bug fixes and incorporating them into their own product.

  5. #4

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    Hi Guys,

    This thread just popped up in my google alerts and i thought i would reach out.

    jzucker, very sorry if we missed your message. We try to get back to everyone when writing on the form on our website.

    As for the issue with #4 chords, we are aware of it, and I'm confident it will be fixed, and it has improved slightly in beta12, but anything that related tracking is in terms of months, not weeks unfortunately, and i really don't want to promise anything related to tracking - its very complex stuff. We don't license our technology - we've developed it over 8 years now, with thousands of beta testers.

    The other issue: that you need a computer or iOS device - i can't do anything about. We are a software company and thats really the main feature of the product: it works with standard hardware and plugs into daw production environments.

    Best
    Jam Origin



  6. #5

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    When it can be a stand alone unit at a reasonable price point, I'm in! Hopefully Roland or some other company will liscence the technology.

  7. #6

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    Along with triggering synths MIDI Guitar works well for using your guitar as an MIDI input device with scoring software - much easier than entering notes with a computer keyboard. Use MIDI Guitar's MIDI Out as the MIDI input for your scoring software (your software must have MIDI record functionality, unfortunately MuseScore does not so it's a hybrid MIDI note entry and computer keyboard note duration entry in MuseScore).
    Last edited by MaxTwang; 01-28-2016 at 11:51 PM.

  8. #7

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    The iOS version hasn't been updated in almost 3 years.

  9. #8

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    Max, hi!

    Does this software work with Sibelius for note entry in real time? This is the "holy grail' I'm looking for.

  10. #9

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    Tried it on iPhone 4 which proved to be too slow for the task.

    App recognized it as iPhone 3, and issued warning CPU being too slow.
    I don't mind being recognized wrongly. Being to slow is a downer.

    All this using in microphone for input, recognition of higher notes seem reasonably fast. On lower notes it stutters and staalls.
    I'll try it via iRig (analog) when I find working guitar cable somewhere.

    Also I will compare PC version, once I install it, to Roland GK3/ GI20 combo. Since it's all software, in the box solution, chances are it may be little faster than Roland on working with soft synths and DAW. I wonder how it will work as a trigger for hardware synth, if that optiion is possible at all?

  11. #10
    you need to configure your buffers and latency on ASIO audio driver to be as low as possible. In my case 3ms. Then it will be extremely fast tracking on the internal software synths. I found triggering even external software synths to be slow so I'm guessing that triggering hardware synths via midi would be problematic. I didn't try recording just the midi output. The glitches in the chordal note recognition and the slow customer support when I reported the problem led me to not make the purchase. When/if they fix that I'll try again.

  12. #11

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    Well, that was fast! Yesterday I pointed out Midi Guitar for iOS hadn't updated in three years and this morning version 2 arrived. This is a powerful forum.

  13. #12

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    I/tried a lot of midi guitar things...I can not find really good...Tried this software also.
    I/ve heard Fishman made the best and acurate-fast.

  14. #13
    haven't tried the fishman ($400) but this software is extremely fast on my machine. No audible latency. The only problem is the #4 thing on chords. Which unfortunately, is a deal breaker.

  15. #14

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    I gave it try. Thanks for pointing it out. The tracking doesn't seem any better than the Fishman Tripleplay, but it's not worse, and it's nice to be able to plug any guitar into it. Fishman has a foot controller box which allows you to have a stand-alone that triggers external synths, as well as nice features for stacking VST synths and mapping the fingerboard. This software shows promise though.

  16. #15

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  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamScott
    I gave it try. Thanks for pointing it out. The tracking doesn't seem any better than the Fishman Tripleplay, but it's not worse, and it's nice to be able to plug any guitar into it. Fishman has a foot controller box which allows you to have a stand-alone that triggers external synths, as well as nice features for stacking VST synths and mapping the fingerboard. This software shows promise though.
    my concern for live use is interference from other wireless signals, i.e. cell phones, wifi, microwave, etc...

  18. #17

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    Tried PC version. Tracking seem a bit slower than GK3, but with less false triggerings.

    In another word, if one could set parameters for GK3 precisely enough (in GI20, or GR xyz), like sensitivity, gate ..., it would be winner.
    As it is now, you have to accomodate your playing to fit within GK3 technical restrictions, which is a major down side.

    Since this Jam Origin software works on what's already out of your usual pick ups, there are not (m)any demands on your playing style.
    It does feel a hair slower, IMO.

    This speed of tracking I'll have to confirm by simoultaneous recording of all devices, or alike, I will keep you informed.

    Also have to check on iPhone 4 again.

    NOTE: Odly enough, both GK3 and Jam Origin on tremolo picking at aprox 1/16 @ 120bpm, going from higher notes to lower, start losing it somewhere around A @ 220Hz, which may imply something about my picking technique, so you bare that in mind when you read my findings.

  19. #18
    You either had a slow computer or had the ASIO buffers configured incorrectly. On my i7 windows 8.1 machine, it blows the doors off the GK-3. Absolutely no comparison in tracking. I could play giant steps at 300BPM and it keeps up. Not so with the GK3, particularly on the low strings. And Joey Goldstein was getting identical results on his iMac. You need to configure it for 3ms latency and then the performance blows away the GK-3.

  20. #19

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    Maybe my ears and feeling play tricks with my perception. I'll do some pseudo scientific test and asdsvise accordingly.
    Maybe you missed it, but I said Jam Origin tracking was better, as in less false triggerings, but I felt GK3 was doing it just a hair faster.

    Also, with due respect, don't tell me about my buffer settings, just likke I don't tell you about your guitar playing.
    At least you can believe I'm literate enough to read 2.9ms where I see it written.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    Max, hi!

    Does this software work with Sibelius for note entry in real time? This is the "holy grail' I'm looking for.

    Yes, works just like a MIDI keyboard with Sibelius. Also works well with Band in a Box where you can record your guitar as audio and MIDI simultaneously.

    Sibelius on a Mac: In Preferences/Input Devices select "MIDI Guitar Out" (look closely as the check box is really light and hard to see). MIDI Guitar has to be running for the MIDI Guitar Out driver to be discoverable, if you don't see it - click 'Find new input devices' or restart Sibelius. Then under Note Input click Record and start playing your guitar.

    If you're using Band in a Box and don't see the 'MIDI Guitar Out' as a MIDI In option you probably didn't have MIDI Guitar running when you started Band in a Box. Start MIDI Guitar then restart Band in a Box.

    The MIDI Guitar demo should work fine with Sibelius.
    Last edited by MaxTwang; 01-29-2016 at 06:38 PM.

  22. #21

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    If you're having tracking issues try using your bridge pickup with the tone up (adjusting your tone might help adjust to your playing style), also run your guitar direct to your audio interface - no effects. Play with the level in your audio interface - you want it as strong as possible but no clipping. Play with your level and see what works best for you. Use the Noise Gate in Guitar MIDI to clean up ghost notes.

    The Help files in MIDI guitar are pretty good, take a look if you're having problems.
    Last edited by MaxTwang; 01-29-2016 at 09:34 PM.

  23. #22

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    Before you read this long borring and unnecessarry post ...

    1. Get informed on what latency is and how it adds up.
    2. Make distinction btw quality of tracking vs. speed of pitch recognition & triggering.
    3. Note that we do not know inner "mechanics" of MIDI Guitar software, how it deals with various inputs and how it addresses VST synths
    4. Note that his was not to measure how fast either "participant" is, but to observe general tendency of difference in pitch recognition engine speed, given all other conditions are as similar as possible.

    Signal paths:
    1. GK3: Guitar-GK3-Gi20 (Pitch Rec)-USB-"MIDI Guitar" MIDI in (virtual)-VST synth in "MIDI Guitar"-Audio out-USB-Digital Mixer-USB -ASIO in-DAW (RCh)
    2. M G: Guitar-Digital Mixer-USB-ASIO in-"MIDI Guitar" (Pitch Rec)-VST synth in "MIDI Guitar"-Audio out-USB-Digital Mixer-USB -ASIO in-DAW (R Ch)
    3: Audio (Paralel to above): Guitar-Digital Mixer-USB-ASIO in-DAW (left channel)

    This way I could recorded stereo files to compare L and R channel and measure difference in accumulated latency btw two channels. Since path for L channel is common to both paths, difference in latency of R channel btw files recorded via one path vs. another is the real life application difference of the 2 pitch recognition engines.

    That differnce is equal to difference btw all the latences accumulated as per following:
    1. For GK3 path: GK3-Gi20 (Pitch Recognition)-"MIDI Guitar" MIDI input (virtual)
    2. For M G path: Digital Mixer-ASIO in-"MIDI Guitar" (Pitch Recognition)

    It is obvious couple of elements apart from "pitch recognition engines" are adding to the total, namely:
    1. ASIO in buffer makes for 2.9ms of latency.
    2. Digital mixer AD conversion and whatever, add for some number of saamples, probably about 3ms.
    3. MIDI ports have minimal jitter/ delay/ latency of about 3.5ms, which can go to more than 10.

    Knowing this, we can see that in order to strictly compare only pitch recognition engines, measured differences we should compensate by:
    1. For GK3 at least 3.5ms, ie deduct 3.5ms
    2. For M G at least 5.9ms, ie deduct 5.9ms

    And now, measured results. Obtained by playing Bb major scale in 5th position, 6th string 6th fret root ...
    Scale..A..Bb.C..D..Eb.F..G..A..Bb.C..D..Eb.F..G..A .Bb
    GK3....27.38.36.34.43.38.27.34.28.32.27.29.25.27.2 5.26 all arround latency in ms
    M.G....46 56 58 44 42 43 47 48 41 43 42 44 42 40 38 44 all arround latency in ms
    Diff: .19 18 22 10 -1. 5 20 14 13 11 15 15 17 13 13 18 difference btw paths in ms

    Frankly, I thought this was way wrong, so I measured again, this time in C (VII/6/8) ...
    Scale ...B C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
    GK3 .....35 43 34 38 38 35 35 26 28 32 26 27 24 25 24 28
    M G .....53 50 49 43 52 46 50 45 45 48 41 43 49 40 48 41

    After compensation, the difference would be about 3ms smaller and even if I was biased, I could not steal more than maybe 4ms MAX, but you can trust me I did my best to stay within 1ms error window, in total, GK3/GI20 combo would still score better.
    Using better PC hardware, like graphic card, processor ..., maybe I could've got more uniform results, but the difference would likely ressemble above findings.

    So there it is.

    It is fair to note that M G developper never claimed it was better, faster ... they modestly and precisely said "... comparable to hardware solutions ...", which it really is. With all the benefit of saving on unnecessarry hardware as well as, IMO, less false triggering, which may be more important than pure speed, you can conclude whatever you want.
    Last edited by Vladan; 01-30-2016 at 11:48 AM.

  24. #23

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    so GK-3 is quite good..?

  25. #24

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    It's not the GK-3 but the pitch recognition - in the above example is a GI20.

    Axon was the fastest and required a GK type pickup, unfortunately Blue Chip folded years ago. The Fishman Triple Play has great performance but also requires a special pickup on your guitar, the Triple Play gets rid of the 13-pin cable by being wireless.

    MIDI Guitar has the advantage of not requiring a special pickup, 13-pin cable or wireless. If you can already get your guitar into your computer then MIDI Guitar should work fine.

  26. #25

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    GR 55 black and Gk 3 I mean....