The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Posts 26 to 50 of 66
  1. #26
    Right and in my case and Joey Goldstein and at least a half dozen other jazz musicians, the jam origin midi guitar software outperformed the axon and the GK3 by far utilizing the GR-33, GR-55 and axon synths. The pitch to midi occurs in those processors, not the pickup.

    I too thought jam origin had less performance than the GK-3 until I got my asio buffers setup correctly. I do have a pretty fast machine. i7, 3820, 32gb memory 64 bit windows 8.1 so if you have a slow machine, inefficient usb drivers, etc., you'll get less performance. You can't emphatically state that midi-guitar is slower because the machine you are running it on and the efficiency of the drivers and the operating system makes a huge difference. So, any performance numbers of jam origin's product is meaningless without factoring in the machine, operating system, drivers etc.

    It'd be like saying ford is faster than chevy. Totally unquantifiable.

    I can tell you that a bunch of folks I know experienced much better performance than axon and GK-3 performance though the bugs in the pitch recognition of chords is a deal breaker personally.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    Before you read this long borring and unnecessarry post ...

    1. Get informed on what latency is and how it adds up.
    2. Make distinction btw quality of tracking vs. speed of pitch recognition & triggering.
    3. Note that we do not know inner "mechanics" of MIDI Guitar software, how it deals with various inputs and how it addresses VST synths
    4. Note that his was not to measure how fast either "participant" is, but to observe general tendency of difference in pitch recognition engine speed, given all other conditions are as similar as possible.

    Signal paths:
    1. GK3: Guitar-GK3-Gi20 (Pitch Rec)-USB-"MIDI Guitar" MIDI in (virtual)-VST synth in "MIDI Guitar"-Audio out-USB-Digital Mixer-USB -ASIO in-DAW (RCh)
    2. M G: Guitar-Digital Mixer-USB-ASIO in-"MIDI Guitar" (Pitch Rec)-VST synth in "MIDI Guitar"-Audio out-USB-Digital Mixer-USB -ASIO in-DAW (R Ch)
    3: Audio (Paralel to above): Guitar-Digital Mixer-USB-ASIO in-DAW (left channel)

    This way I could recorded stereo files to compare L and R channel and measure difference in accumulated latency btw two channels. Since path for L channel is common to both paths, difference in latency of R channel btw files recorded via one path vs. another is the real life application difference of the 2 pitch recognition engines.

    That differnce is equal to difference btw all the latences accumulated as per following:
    1. For GK3 path: GK3-Gi20 (Pitch Recognition)-"MIDI Guitar" MIDI input (virtual)
    2. For M G path: Digital Mixer-ASIO in-"MIDI Guitar" (Pitch Recognition)

    It is obvious couple of elements apart from "pitch recognition engines" are adding to the total, namely:
    1. ASIO in buffer makes for 2.9ms of latency.
    2. Digital mixer AD conversion and whatever, add for some number of saamples, probably about 3ms.
    3. MIDI ports have minimal jitter/ delay/ latency of about 3.5ms, which can go to more than 10.

    Knowing this, we can see that in order to strictly compare only pitch recognition engines, measured differences we should compensate by:
    1. For GK3 at least 3.5ms, ie deduct 3.5ms
    2. For M G at least 5.9ms, ie deduct 5.9ms

    And now, measured results. Obtained by playing Bb major scale in 5th position, 6th string 6th fret root ...
    Scale..A..Bb.C..D..Eb.F..G..A..Bb.C..D..Eb.F..G..A .Bb
    GK3....27.38.36.34.43.38.27.34.28.32.27.29.25.27.2 5.26 all arround latency in ms
    M.G....46 56 58 44 42 43 47 48 41 43 42 44 42 40 38 44 all arround latency in ms
    Diff: .19 18 22 10 -1. 5 20 14 13 11 15 15 17 13 13 18 difference btw paths in ms

    Frankly, I thought this was way wrong, so I measured again, this time in C (VII/6/8) ...
    Scale ...B C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
    GK3 .....35 43 34 38 38 35 35 26 28 32 26 27 24 25 24 28
    M G .....53 50 49 43 52 46 50 45 45 48 41 43 49 40 48 41

    After compensation, the difference would be about 3ms smaller and even if I was biased, I could not steal more than maybe 4ms MAX, but you can trust me I did my best to stay within 1ms error window, in total, GK3/GI20 combo would still score better.
    Using better PC hardware, like graphic card, processor ..., maybe I could've got more uniform results, but the difference would likely ressemble above findings.

    So there it is.

    It is fair to note that M G developper never claimed it was better, faster ... they modestly and precisely said "... comparable to hardware solutions ...", which it really is. With all the benefit of saving on unnecessarry hardware as well as, IMO, less false triggering, which may be more important than pure speed, you can conclude whatever you want.

    Your numbers include latency from the VST synth, the comparison isn't affected but absolute latency is overstated. Are you using one of the included synths or something with lower latency?

  4. #28

    User Info Menu

    Most useful understanding of latency I heard is; the speed of sound in air is about 1 foot per millisecond so 10ms latency is like standing 10ft away from your amp. Bearable for me, 20, not so much.

    Suppose most of you knew this.

  5. #29

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxTwang
    Your numbers include latency from the VST synth, the comparison isn't affected but absolute latency is overstated. Are you using one of the included synths or something with lower latency?
    Yes, I think I was clear about what I was measuring. Sound you play is audiable at least 10ms earlier than measured all around latency, while pitch is recognized even earlier, but those values are the same for both paths and do not influence the difference. So we agree on that.

    For the second part, the answer is also yes. I thought it is fair to use what developper provided with own free demo.

  6. #30

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxTwang
    Yes, works just like a MIDI keyboard with Sibelius. Also works well with Band in a Box where you can record your guitar as audio and MIDI simultaneously.Sibelius on a Mac: In Preferences/Input Devices select "MIDI Guitar Out" (look closely as the check box is really light and hard to see). MIDI Guitar has to be running for the MIDI Guitar Out driver to be discoverable, if you don't see it - click 'Find new input devices' or restart Sibelius. Then under Note Input click Record and start playing your guitar.If you're using Band in a Box and don't see the 'MIDI Guitar Out' as a MIDI In option you probably didn't have MIDI Guitar running when you started Band in a Box. Start MIDI Guitar then restart Band in a Box.The MIDI Guitar demo should work fine with Sibelius.
    Hi, I've downloaded the trial version, but am on an old macbook pro and using internal audio input (no external unit). It's working ok, but not tracking very well, regardless of all the combinations of settings I try. It must be because I'm not going through an external unit? Anyway, my main question concerns recording the midi out data onto BIAB on the same computer. Having no luck. Where do I see the Midi in options on BIAB? I'm using the 2014 version for mac. Should I be able to record midi to BIAB without an external device? Isn't that what the "virtual midi" setting is all about?

  7. #31

    User Info Menu


    This clip gets a little closer to the signature sound. (patzag axefx forum)
    Last edited by Eric Rowland; 01-30-2016 at 02:37 PM.

  8. #32

    User Info Menu

    ...just to add what was stated by Jack, the JO software is probably targeted for people who don't play #4's #11's b13's etc etc.

  9. #33

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Hi, I've downloaded the trial version, but am on an old macbook pro and using internal audio input (no external unit). It's working ok, but not tracking very well, regardless of all the combinations of settings I try. It must be because I'm not going through an external unit? Anyway, my main question concerns recording the midi out data onto BIAB on the same computer. Having no luck. Where do I see the Midi in options on BIAB? I'm using the 2014 version for mac. Should I be able to record midi to BIAB without an external device? Isn't that what the "virtual midi" setting is all about?

    You might be able to improve your tracking with the built in input. Try adjusting your input level: Open OSX's System Preferences then Sound and adjust Input Volume up/down for the Line In port while playing MIDI Guitar. You should get a nice strong Waveform in MIDI Guitar like this:

    Best Midi Guitar Tracking I've Found-screen-shot-2016-01-30-10-45-07-am-png


    Adjust the Noise Gate in MIDI Guitar and select "Monophonic" if you don't need polyphonic.


    I'm using BIAB 2015 for Mac, hopefully this helps:

    In BIAB you have to set the MIDI In to 'MIDI Guitar out'. MIDI Guitar has to be running before you start BIAB or BIAB won't see the MIDI Guitar Out driver. Click the MIDI button at the top of the screen then "Select MIDI sound/driver [Built-in or Core MIDI]", select "MacOS X CoreMIDI" from the following screen

    Best Midi Guitar Tracking I've Found-screen-shot-2016-01-30-10-50-00-am-png

    Click OK and you should see the following screen. If you don't see this screen click MIDI then "Choose Core MIDI Drivers [Advanced Only]".

    Best Midi Guitar Tracking I've Found-screen-shot-2016-01-30-10-47-47-am-png

    On this screen select "MIDI Guitar Out" for Midi In. The instrument ports can be set to whatever you currently use.

    Click "Record MIDI" and start recording. Click Stop when your done.
    Last edited by MaxTwang; 01-30-2016 at 03:06 PM.

  10. #34

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Rowland

    This clip gets a little closer to the signature sound. (patzag axefx forum)

    The entire guitar synth & processor industry has been collectively saying "Damn you Pat Metheny for recording that song and giving us 30 years of people demanding the ability to get that sound without a GR-300 & G-303/808".


    That is pretty close to a GR-300. Even with a real GR-300 you need reverb and delay to fatten it up and make it usable.
    Last edited by MaxTwang; 01-30-2016 at 03:18 PM.

  11. #35

    User Info Menu

    From a technical point of view JAM Origin has done an outstanding job with MIDI Guitar - other guitar to midi devices use a hex pickup which is actually 6 pickups, one for each string (part of the reason for the 13-pin cable). Your Roland device processes each string separately so it is 6 monophonic pitch to midi converters in a single device. MIDI Guitar is pretty amazing as it is a real time polyphonic pitch to midi converter, and even if the latency doesn't quite measure up to some of the others I find the 'feel' of MIDI Guitar to be more natural than the Roland & Axon pitch to midi systems I've tried when used with a low latency soft synth (the GR-300 and SY-300 are not pitch to midi and are also great feeling).
    Last edited by MaxTwang; 01-30-2016 at 05:25 PM.

  12. #36

    User Info Menu

    I/ve used all Rolands synths,Sonus etc...time for JAM Origin.

  13. #37

    User Info Menu

    Installed the app on an iPad pro. The latency is too much for quick picking. The tracking is... Must be me but it seems to only have two note polyphony. Arpeggios are fine but finger style chords are missing notes. Time to practice and adjust my playing style.

  14. #38

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxTwang
    You might be able to improve your tracking with the built in input. Try adjusting your input level: Open OSX's System Preferences then Sound and adjust Input Volume up/down for the Line In port while playing MIDI Guitar. You should get a nice strong Waveform in MIDI Guitar like this:

    Best Midi Guitar Tracking I've Found-screen-shot-2016-01-30-10-45-07-am-png


    Adjust the Noise Gate in MIDI Guitar and select "Monophonic" if you don't need polyphonic.


    I'm using BIAB 2015 for Mac, hopefully this helps:

    In BIAB you have to set the MIDI In to 'MIDI Guitar out'. MIDI Guitar has to be running before you start BIAB or BIAB won't see the MIDI Guitar Out driver. Click the MIDI button at the top of the screen then "Select MIDI sound/driver [Built-in or Core MIDI]", select "MacOS X CoreMIDI" from the following screen

    Best Midi Guitar Tracking I've Found-screen-shot-2016-01-30-10-50-00-am-png

    Click OK and you should see the following screen. If you don't see this screen click MIDI then "Choose Core MIDI Drivers [Advanced Only]".

    Best Midi Guitar Tracking I've Found-screen-shot-2016-01-30-10-47-47-am-png

    On this screen select "MIDI Guitar Out" for Midi In. The instrument ports can be set to whatever you currently use.

    Click "Record MIDI" and start recording. Click Stop when your done.
    Hey Max, I owe you a beer! Thanks to your very clear instructions I got it going, the trick was changing midi to core instead of built in. So with the beta 4 demo, how is it different to the beta 12 I'm considering purchasing? Is the tracking pretty much the same?

    Finally, as I'm using the in built mini jack audio input on my laptop (on the end of a well shielded regular guitar cable), is there any improvement to be had (as the manual suggests) by using an audio interface? I don't understand why it would. The signal, as is , is clean and strong, especially after boosting from the preferences window as you suggested.

  15. #39

    User Info Menu

    princeplanet, glad you got it working. I haven't used every beta version but I would say the tracking is pretty similar.

    An audio interface would probably reduce latency, but how much is hard to say - Apple's audio input is much better than what we used to see on PCs running earlier version of Windows (which has also improved). If your midi notes are consistently behind where you play them then an audio interface might help, if you're fine with the performance you're getting - then use what you have.

  16. #40

    User Info Menu

    I know it is not a guitar, but... YouRock Guitar in Tap mode. Feels like a keyboard, 100% accurate and fast tracking. Cheap on the used market. I have(had) most 13 pins Roland GS. GR1 had good tracking on some presets. GR20 too. I keep having glitches with the GR55. Shame Roland does not produce the GI20 anymore. I tried the software a few years ago, should give it another try.

  17. #41

    User Info Menu

    Have been a guitar MIDIot for close to 30 years. MIDI Guitar is not as fast as the Roland GK system, but it is amazingly fast for what it is. MIDI Bass is also surprisingly useful, what with the pitch-to-MIDI challenge with lower frequencies, and it's currently free with MIDI Guitar. When I think of the many thousands of dollars I've put into guitar MIDIocy, the $100 I gave for MIDI Guitar/Bass is a very small investment, and a lot of fun.

  18. #42

    User Info Menu

    Although I am using a Godin LGX-SA guitar through a Roland GR-20 (perhaps five years old now or so), my problems involved latency of response in the hardware, especially in terms of the bass strings. The other issue is I have tried to use the LGX for note input in real time with an old legacy version of Sibelius G7 with relatively poor results.

    So I am thinking strongly about selling both the LGX and the Roland GR-20 towards a trade in or buy of a new archtop electric guitar. I think I'm losing interest in the whole technology area here for now.

  19. #43

    User Info Menu

    After a couple of hours of practice I'm much happier with Midi Guitar 2 on iOS.

  20. #44

    User Info Menu

    One thing I discovered using Tripleplay (and guitar rig) on my computer is that latency is noticeably decreased when I turn off the wireless and any internet connections. You might try that along with maximizing buffers and rates.

  21. #45

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamScott
    One thing I discovered using Tripleplay (and guitar rig) on my computer is that latency is noticeably decreased when I turn off the wireless and any internet connections. You might try that along with maximizing buffers and rates.
    IOS devices should be in 'airplane mode' when using MIDI Guitar, DAWs, soft synths, etc.

  22. #46

    User Info Menu

    what is the best computer for fast tracking midi guitar?

  23. #47

    User Info Menu

    The one that comes out a month after you buy your computer

    Most current computers are sufficient to handle Jam Origin's Midi Guitar. Running a lot of soft synths is where there could be issues; but, running 1, 2 or a few soft synths is also within the capabilities of most computers.

    More important is your audio interface these days.

    Best course of action is to download the free trial of Midi Guitar and see how it works with your system and audio interface. If you can monitor CPU and temperature on your computer then you can see if your computer is the limiting factor, if there's unacceptable latency or crackling (without high CPU or temps) then the audio interface is likely the limiting factor.
    Last edited by MaxTwang; 11-08-2016 at 01:09 PM.

  24. #48

    User Info Menu

    Incidentally, it was Jan 2016 when I submitted the support request for the following issue:


    • Glitchy on certain chords containing #4. it gets a bit confused and renders bad notes. For example, if you play a C half diminished voiced with C Bb Eb Gb, it will render a B natural as the bass note!


    It took weeks for them to get back to me and they said it would be a while before it was fixed and they would get back to me.

    Now it's Nov 2016 and I still haven't heard back. In the meantime, a buddy of mine bough the Fishman tripleplay and is totally gassed with how great the tracking is.

  25. #49

    User Info Menu

    Hi. I'm using Jam Origin's MIDI Guitar 2 and it's pretty amazing. So much so that I'm wondering whether Triple Play really offers anything better - your thoughts would be appreciated.

    I'm not fussed about wireless and I won't be splitting my fretboard into zones in a hurry. The only thing which springs to mind is that the hex pickup would at least allow me to easily dedicate a couple of strings to play an octave lower.

    Even with a fairly modest processor & soundcard I seem to be able to get latency down to 1.5ms (as reported by MIDI Guitar, Reaper says audio latency is 3.9ms) reasonably easily and pitch bend tracking seems great too.

    thanks,
    Mark
    Last edited by jazzaxe; 11-01-2017 at 05:39 PM.

  26. #50

    User Info Menu

    I have both and find myself only using Midi Guitar. As far as tracking is concerned, they both work very well, but Midi Guitar works with any guitar I want to plug into the system. I almost always blend in some sound from the guitar itself so the wireless aspect of Triple Play means very little since it is only wireless for the midi aspect.