The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    After waiting over a year for a spring reverb in the Kemper and being disappointed in the effects in general with the kemper, i just pulled the trigger on an axefx II.

    I still love the kemper. Everytime I plug into it, I want to play for hours just like when I plug into a '60s blackface fender princeton or deluxe reverb.

    However, compared to the axefx, the time based effects are really poor.

    For a while I considered buying a good spring reverb and good tape style delay to use with the kemper but at the thought of having to carry around a bunch of pedals and power supply and cables turns me off.

    A digital modeler ought to handle amps and effects IMO.

    So at this point I think I'll just find out once and for all which is the better system (for me).

    Look for a review soon.


    Axe-FX II vs Kemper Modelers-axe-fx-ii-jpg

    Axe-FX II vs Kemper Modelers-kemper-profiler-jpg

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  3. #2

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    Looking forward to hear your thoughts, Jack. It is my impression that the Axe can sound amazing but it's not necessarly faithful to amps while the Kemper sounds exactly like the original amps.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
    Looking forward to hear your thoughts, Jack. It is my impression that the Axe can sound amazing but it's not necessarly faithful to amps while the Kemper sounds exactly like the original amps.
    Yep. that's it in a nutshell. The axefx is a synthesizer and the kemper is a sample player. So the kemper can sound like any amp that's sampled while the axefx is synthesizing the sounds based on circuit emulation. However, it's got more general purpose horsepower for digital effects so the time based effects such as reverb, chorus, delay and such are comparable to some of the better dedicated units whereas the kemper versions are not even as good as the better pedals.

    Only having it "in my hands" is going to satisfy my curiosity so whichever one speaks to me is the one I'll keep. As I mentioned, the kemper has that "je ne sais quoi" where it just makes me smile everytime I plug into it. I have played through many boutique guitar amps as there is a local shop that has plenty of them and in 6 months of playing through their best amps, there have only been 2 that I thought were in the same league with the kemper.

    An additional desire for me which I've never mentioned before is a huge, breathy stereo sound. This is missing from the kemper IMO. The "Space" effect really doesn't do it. If you play through two analog amps with a boss reverb pedal in stereo you know what I'm talking about. The axefx can do this. The kemper can't.

    Keep in mind that Kemper has announced and shown some new delays at Namm which will be released in February and sometime this year will be releasing some new reverbs but I have not heard them.

    One thing I do know is that both companies are driven almost exclusively by the nu-metal/thrash guitar market as it's the only really solid market for electric guitar music these days. So the majority of guys playing these units are playing 7 string 5th chords or de-tuning for the low-end grundge sound. Not many people are using them for cleans and when I listen to examples of "clean tones" in the axefx and kemper forums I'm often amused because they think a semi distorted tone is a clean tone.

    With kemper it doesn't matter because it's a sample recorder/player but with axefx, hopefully the clean tone synthesis has the "je ne sais quoi" of the kemper and from several of the better jazz guys I know with them such as Joey Goldstein, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Jeremey Poparad and a few others, it does.

    So stay tuned. And sorry to offend those who think all modelers are created equal and it's unfair, unjust and unfairly biased to compare them.

  5. #4

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    I bought my first Axe in 2009 and bought a Kemper when they came out - I spent a couple years in the Axe vs Kemper Thunderdome on The Gear Page and the respective forums. I spent a lot of time comparing by ear, comparing with spectrum analyzer, profiling, Tone Matching, making IRs, etc, etc, etc.

    My opinion: they are both capable of ALL the same amp tones, and yes, the Axe has much better selection of effects and superior effects routing.


    Some personal observations, YMMV:

    1. The Kemper is voiced more like a guitar processor: extreme highs and lows are rolled off

    2. The Axe is voiced more like a studio effects processor: Flat with extended highs and lows

    3. The Kemper can be EQ'd to sound more like the Axe

    4. The Axe can be EQ'd to sound more like the Kemper

    5. The Axe is tweak-able to an amazing/ridiculous degree.

    6. To find a compensating EQ to achieve #3 or #4: Profile the Axe then run white noise into both the Axe & Kemper then each into a spectrum analyzer, add a PEQ to Axe or Kemper and tweak the EQ until the spectrum analyzer shows a similar response for both devices. Voxengo Span is a free spectrum analyzer and allows you to compare 2 signals by overlaying one on the other.

    6. The dynamics/ADSR are a bit different (I doubt you'd hear it, but it showed up on a spectrum analyzer). Either the Kemper was a bit exaggerated or the Axe was a bit flattened, or a little of both. On the Axe you can use a Controller to exaggerate the Attack - kinda like an envelope filter, but attach the controller to a Gain or Level, instead of a filter, and use the Envelope to boost your level like it would control a filter.

    etc, etc, etc.

    My advice - Ignore everything in this post and just play the damn things and have fun. I spent a couple years fascinated with the technology at the expense of playing guitar. In the end I sold the Axe & Kemper, bought a Quilter MicroPro and have been playing more than I had for years. These days I satisfy my inner techie by writing code, and spend a lot of playing time with the lessons around here.


    If you are at all a techie - have a nice trip down the rabbit hole, see you in a couple years



    A tip on the Axe: For a good clean jazz tone you don't need to use an amp or cab block - parametric EQ (PEQ) is enough. There are some great sounds to be had by running an amp/cab parallel to a PEQ. Also try a PEQ then split - one row direct, the other through a cab block with a 15" bass cab, mix to taste.
    Last edited by MaxTwang; 01-22-2016 at 08:33 PM.

  6. #5
    Good tips but to me, not using the amp and cab give you a hi fi acoustic image type of sound. Not what I'm looking for. I love the sound of a nice tube amp like the vibroverb which is my main jazz amp on the kemper. I also tried the quilter and hated it so I think we're all different and it's hard to generalize what someone else hears. I plan to just create my own profile by selecting a fender amp, a clean 2x12 or 2x10 cab and go from there. I'm a software engineer so I'm not afraid of the tech but I also don't want to be programming and editing . I just want to find a single great sound and go from there.

  7. #6

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    Found my notes regarding the compensating EQ, these are from a couple years ago and firmware upgrades & newer IRs have probable changed the Axe's sound and may have negated these. If you find the 'feel' to be different between the Axe and Kemper try these in the Axe (or inverse of the gain in the Kemper) - it's amazing how much EQ affects perceived 'feel'. As the Axe models the circuits - placing EQ blocks before/after an amp will change the 'feel' of the amp block by changing how the circuit reacts and performs.

    Axe PEQ block (inverse gain for Kemper Studio EQ)
    Band 1
    type: Shelving
    Freq: 42.83 Hz
    Q: 0.636
    Gain: -5.2 dB

    Band 2
    Freq: 166.1 Hz
    Q: 3.895
    Gain: 3.31 dB

    Band 3
    Freq: 319.1 Hz
    Q: 10
    Gain: 1.04 dB

    Kemper Optional: High Gain .3 dB boost at 6000 Hz


    If you like amps with cascading gain then try putting a wave shaper before and/or after the stack in the Kemper. Just add a little distortion with the wave shaper. I found this gave me a more smooth, singing sound (like an old Boogie).


    I agree the Axe & Kemper are capable of much better sounds than the Quilter; but I'm a tech-junkie, am fascinated with electronics (have built quite a few amps) and the limited options of the Quiter help me focus on music (instead of staying up all nite exploring and analyzing the Axe & Kemper, as I so often did).
    Last edited by MaxTwang; 01-22-2016 at 10:55 PM.

  8. #7
    thanks max!

  9. #8
    axefx also just recently announced a soon to be released quantum 2.0 firmware update which has models of the '64 vibroverb with JBL speaker as well as updates to fender and dumble amp models which are primarily the ones I used.

  10. #9

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    I think Kurt is using the Axe here, sounds amazing.

  11. #10
    Just to make things interesting, I may pick up a line 6 Helix and do a 3 way shootout to report which one is the ABSOLUTE BEST modeler on the market barre none!

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    Just to make things interesting, I may pick up a line 6 Helix and do a 3 way shootout to report which one is the ABSOLUTE BEST modeler on the market barre none!
    Amplifire, too?

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    Amplifire, too?
    already tried one of those.

  14. #13

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    i sat with a kemper once for a little bit and aside from being a little out of my element, my one take away was this: it doesn't sound like a guitar, it sounds like a recorded guitar. which is odd, because that's what everyone is shooting for, but somehow... there was a weird little uncanny valley thing happening for me i couldn't shake. its like the real doll of amplification. or maybe like when you replace drums with samples from a library.

    still it was neat, and i wouldn't mind messing with one again, but i guess i'm just an amp guy. for now.

  15. #14

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    The Kemper & Axe sound like a mic'd amp (recorded guitar) because the profiles & IRs are captured with microphones through mic preamps. When playing the Axe/Kemper through an FRFR system you are reproducing the sound of a mic'd amp.

    A guitar cab is notoriously directional and beamy: The sound you hear directly in front of the speaker is dramatically different from what you hear standing to the side. We dial in our amp so it sounds good to our ears which are usually 6' above and to the side of the speaker - we're hearing the smooth, warm, creamy sound of our amp off-axis, while the audience might hear a shrill, harsh, nasty mess from a mic placed right in front of the speaker.

    Sounding like a mic'd amp isn't a bad thing as we are finally hearing our guitar the way the audience hears us. Modelers give us the ability to define our mic'd sound, and not leave it up to random sound guys at random gigs. In this respect modelers give us consistent sound that fits better in the mix, which may lead us to adjust our playing in a way that fits better with the ensemble.

    There have been improvements which bring modelers closer to 'amp in the room', changes in mic'ing, eq'ing, new algorithms to lessen the mic & mic preamp, etc. For now the solution to 'amp in the room' is to bypass the cabinet modeling and run the Axe or Kemper into a guitar cabinet.
    Last edited by MaxTwang; 01-25-2016 at 01:10 PM.

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by feet
    i sat with a kemper once for a little bit and aside from being a little out of my element, my one take away was this: it doesn't sound like a guitar, it sounds like a recorded guitar. which is odd, because that's what everyone is shooting for, but somehow... there was a weird little uncanny valley thing happening for me i couldn't shake. its like the real doll of amplification. or maybe like when you replace drums with samples from a library.

    still it was neat, and i wouldn't mind messing with one again, but i guess i'm just an amp guy. for now.
    Disagree 100%. I've sat down with my kemper running through an Alto TS-110A PA cabinet right next to Dr Z, Badcat, Victoria, Tworock, Allen, Vintage Fender and it's beautiful in the room and actually sounded better than the tube amps. The reason is that it's a sample player. It's impossible for it to sound like recorded guitar because it doesn't sample the guitar for it's playback. I have found that people who say that it doesn't sound and feel like a real amp are the same guys who use monster cable and insiste that they can hear the bits when they listen to a CD. And because you control how loud you play and what the tone control settings are when you record the samples, you can then get the sound and feel of *THAT* tone at *ANY* volume level from whisper quiet to 1200 watts worth.

    I was an amp guy before I tried the kemper.

  17. #16

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    Loueke is using the Kemper here




  18. #17

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    i didn't mean that, exactly. i mean it sounded like a finished product and not a work in process. it didn't sound like me laying down tracks to make a record. it sounded like a record. it didn't sound like raw material to me.

    like i said, i didn't spend an incredible amount of time tweaking and twiddling until i was satisfied with the result. i came in with an open mind, i wanted to like it and that was my take away. uncanny valley. for the money they are asking, i'm not inclined to pick one up and hope it gets better when i put in the time to program it. its too expensive of a dice roll, and i wear to many hats for that. mics and pedals are faster to me, and the sounds i want are all there.

    and apparently i'm in the minority here, but what would really interest me in a modeler would be one that just did the amps and skipped the effects, but they seem to want to go in the other direction with that. or maybe an even more stripped down version where i could just profile my amps, or just have a few in there, sort of akin to the tc electronic toneprints.

  19. #18
    I bought mine for $1500 used which is about the going rate of a boutique tube amp so I didn't think it was overly expensive considering...The atomic amplifire is $599 and from what I understand is very close to the quality of the kemper in a more stripped down pedal setup. They have an unconditional 15 day money back guarantee so it's not too much of a roll of the dice.

    I did spend a lot of time buying profiles and tweaking but in the end , I simply use a '64 vibroverb amp and don't really do any tweaking. I have 3 amps loaded into my kemper but use the vibroverb 99% of the time. The other two profiles I use are a fuchs ODS semi-clean and a two rock custom reverb for a more overdriven robben-ford tone. I find that I like the vibroverb with overdrive as well as just about anything else I've ever owned. One really cool thing is that I get the same "good vibes" feeling playing through the vibroverb setting as I did with my Gries 35 and my Plexi 45 tube amps but i don't have to turn up loud so my ears are much happier.

  20. #19

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    Jack & feet are both right.

    Something to think about: There are approx. 7,000 profiles on Kemper's rig exchange, the Kemper comes loaded with a few hundred more, and hundreds/thousands are available for purchase. Each of those was painstakingly created by someone who thought each profile worthy of being shared or sold (think about how many didn't make the cut).

    Of those 7,000+ profiles Jack uses 3. When I had a Kemper I only used 1 publicly available profile and made my own.

    The Kemper and Axe are capable of infinite nuances but if your taste does not match the tastes of the person creating the profile/patch - they're all unusable.

    The best way to test drive this gear is with someone who is adept at tweaking these devices (Scott Peterson of TPG is outstanding when it comes to the Axe).

    Then there's the adjustment to FRFR for someone used to amps ...

  21. #20

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    It's hard to believe the time based effects suck on the Kemper. <$200 will get you a really good delay or reverb pedal. Kemper couldn't build that into their box?

  22. #21

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    I think you should be able to get as raw or processed as you want. On the AXE you canary it to authentic or ideal. You can load effects or none. You can add room and a variety of distance, cabs, mics or none. You can tweak forever or not. Eq, overdrive, saturation, add two amps or none. Not sure about Kemper but I'm sure it's about as versatile. Sometimes I like processed and finished and produced. Sometimes I don't.

  23. #22

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    And i don't use "profiles" or presets unless I greatly alter them. I like having my own sounds. That's kind of why Axe Fx II suits me personally.
    Last edited by henryrobinett; 01-25-2016 at 05:44 PM.

  24. #23

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    The Kemper is also an incredible tool for us recording guys. Just straight into a good interface and you have a world of great sounds available.
    I no longer use any plugs by Line 6 or anyone else (and I think I have them all). This means that I now have to commit to sounds whereas before I would leave the plug instantiated just in case I needed to tweek for the mix, and this has worked well for me. The sounds are so good that I haven't had to tweek them apart from the usual mixing adjustments.o

    And the bass sounds!! I no longer use my Sansamp rack bass pre. The Ampeg and Fender profiles in the Kemper are so much better.

  25. #24

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    Yup. Axe Fx too. I just released a CD where all the electrics were recorded with it. Reamping is very easy. I record everything with a dry DI in addition so j can go back and change the sounds, effects, amps, clean or dirty after the fact.

  26. #25

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    Anybody try getting old school EH-150/185 or GA-50 type sounds out of these rigs? I've been looking into the Amplifire mostly because it's cheaper and I wouldn't be tweaking it a lot. Basically I'd only need a couple of tones and wouldn't need the infinite tweak-ability of the Kemper or AxeFX.