archtop.com

[jads57]

I think it's time we all get some coffee...............

[va3ux]

Interesting and somewhat related to the recent posts on marketing and the better mousetrap : back in the mid 80's I was on a sales training course, which is basically marketing. The instructor used type writers as an example. At that time (before the proliferation of PCs and 'word processors', although they were starting to appear), any office you went into had secretarys and type writers - lots of them. If your company had deep pockets, they bought IBM Selectric type writers, perceived to be the best in existence.

To make a point the instructor asked what everyone thought the most popular type writer in the world was and the unanimous response was 'IBM'. 'Correct', he said. He then asked what the best type writer in the world was and the unanimous response was 'IBM Selectric'. 'Wrong' he said. The best type writer available was actually made by Olivetti and it was far less expensive than the IBM. Yet none of us could ever recall seeing one during our visits to customer sites or our own offices. So how could the best type writer be so seldom seen and be so obscure, while a slightly lower quality and much more expensive type writer (IBM) be present every where. The answer was 'Marketing'.

Just a few years later at a similar course, a similar example was made using MS Word, Wordperfect and Lotus Ami Pro. Today MS Word is probably the standard through out the world but there was a period of time when Word Perfect and Ami Pro were way ahead MS Word. Brute force marketing wins out. Who even remembers Ami Pro and when was the last time you heard mention of Wordperfect.

[Stringswinger]

Marketing in most products is usually done by the firms wishing to sell a product. Firms selling guitars do quite a bit of that and small businessmen like JV and Archie do some as well.

The best marketing for guitars is done by having the best players play them. That is why endorsement deals are an important part of selling guitars.

Had Joe pass played that Fender Jaguar for his entire career, the price of pre CBS Jags would be way higher....

[oldane]

The best marketing for guitars is done by having the best players play them. That is why endorsement deals are an important part of selling guitars.

Leo Fender absolutely hated the way rock musicians some smashed their instruments and he never understood it (neither do I, but that's another matter). Whatever, there's a saying that Fender actually provided some Strats for free for Jimi Hendrix despite their knowledge that they would only be in one piece till the next concert. But Hendrix "sold" more Strats than Fenders whole advertizing program.

[jazz.fred]

I teach Marketing Communications at a University. So I know a lot about branding. I know that the "added value" of brands is mostly, if not entirely, psychological. Simply put, people will buy your stuff because they:

know it (brand awareness)
believe it delivers some kind of benefit (brand attitude)

So the brand's value is predominantly about extrinsic value. About reputation. It's a fuzzy thing. Not that the intrinsic value is not important at all - there is a minimum quality for A brands - but for marketeers it's all about creating extrinsic (psychological) value as the real "salesman." This is why a pair of 10 dollar Nikes (that's what it costs to produce them) can be sold for 100 bucks. People believe they are worth that because they believe in the reputation based on an advertising budget that is created around them. It costs years to achieve that and millions of dollars spent on advertising. I'm not saying Nike is selling bad shoes but what I AM saying that what you are paying for is mostly "psychological" value. This applies to branding strategies in general. That's why a house label is cheaper than an A brand.

Of course the price differential for "mythical" brands such as Fender and Gibson is way bigger even than for supermarket products. We all know that a local no name luthier can build a custom order handcrafted guitar for about 4k. Yet an L5 costs 10k easily. Why? Because it carries a hefty psychological price tag called. Not because it's twice as good. That's pretty irrelevant in branding.

Same for vintage guitars. The pricing is entirely psychological and not based on the intrinsic value of these instruments.

I'm not saying that expensive or vintage intruments are crap. I am not saying these guitars are not worth it. Not at all. I love Gibsons. I love vintage guitars. But there is simply little connection between intrinsic (specs, materials, production costs) and extrinsic value (the mythical added value of the brand name). That's simply how it works. This is what books about branding will tell you.

Branding is about creating added value. That added value is psychological. And that's what you pay for. Not for the thing itself (specs, color, materials, ingredients, materials etc.)

DB

P.s. Blind product tests have shown over and over that even the most brand loyal of consumers do not experience much differences between different brands on an intrinsic level (taste wise). Funny, huh.

Greetings Colleague,

I concur wholeheartedly with your excellent and insightful post.

[Cunamara]

"Extrinsic value" = "mojo."

[2bornot2bop]

Thats very cynical of you. I am a member here first and foremost. I have had direct and anecdotal evidence of the sellers behaviour. Nothing is being made up here.

The reality is some sellers don't make enough money to do what this guy does because we don't get involved in shady deals in order to pay the bills. Some of us are happy to cover shipping both ways if we make a mistake and not dump it on the buyer because we couldn't slip something past them. And some of us, dont like to see if happen to others especially when going through such pains ourselves and hardship to not do it.



Besides I'm small fry, this is more of a hobby and something I do to build up a collection of pictures of archtops, which is my real passion. I am not in competition with Archtop.com at all but thanks for the compliment I guess.

I always speak out on this forum on the side of me/us the members. I do sell guitars but 99% through ebay or Gumtree (local site) and always for more than I advertise on here, even after fees. I have almost no financial upside to selling through here.

I speak here always first and foremost as a member, please don't get that confused. I am archtop heaven because I am passionate about archtops coming from a players side first. This is an archtop forum, where else would I be?

Which is why I posed the ?

ATH is "competition" for archtop dot com

[2bornot2bop]

Greetings Colleague,

I concur wholeheartedly with your excellent and insightful post.

Any used car salesman will tell you to be a successful salesman you must first build, read create, "value" in the mind of your prospective buyer, BEFORE attempting to make a sell.

That's sales 101

[jazz.fred]

Any used car salesman will tell you to be a successful salesman you must first build, read create, "value" in the mind of your prospective buyer, BEFORE attempting to make a sell.

That's sales 101

Agreed.

[Jabberwocky]

Which is why I posed the ?

ATH is "competition" for archtop dot com

2bop, isn't that a little rich? Aren't you a trader too on the scale of ATH? And you're based in Seattle.

When someone wrote "there's more than one" in a previous post, whom do you think was the "more than one" he was referring to?

It just ain't cool to call out each other. I don't seriously think that either you or ATH qualify as traders; you are both a couple of hobbyist-sellers. Nothing wrong with that in my book, and certainly does not qualify as "competition".

[jads57]

Wow maybe we should change the title of this thread to "As the Guitar Turns" The problem w/ the internet is we don't have to be accountable for our comments face to face. I'm guilty of this as well, but I think a little more thought before posts might be called for. On the bright side it does show how passionate about our guitars we really are!

[Thelonious1]

Im surpised by this whole conversation... i really value all this feedbacj as a possible client of archtop. It makes me feel like I should ask for futher photos and more information about what im looking at.

[archtops]

Thelonious,

Please feel free to request high-resolution camera original photos of any instrument here at archtop.com. (Display resolution is limited by necessity online, to optimize page loading time.)

We're always happy to demo any guitar over the phone, but we strongly encourage Skype or Google chat video calls, so we can provide much higher quality audio, as well as a detailed video description of the instrument in real time. It's by far the most efficient way to get all your questions answered at once. Please do let me know anytime you have any questions on an instrument, and I'll be more than happy to get back to you asap.

Best Wishes,

Joe Vinikow
archtop.com

[Ken Olmstead]

I know there are always folks that have a negative experience, but I just sold an ES-175 and purchased an L-5CES very recently from archtop.com and I was extremely satisfied on both counts. It was a pleasure doing business with Joe and I felt like everything was on the up and up. I would/will use him again!

[mercosound]

I sold an ES-175 to Joe, and purchased a Goodall from him a couple of years later. No problems...

[Top of the Arch!]

No. Top of the Arch

What the hell does THIS mean????? Ive never posted in this thread until just this moment. How am I involved?? Bob

[jads57]

I have never bought anything from Joe Vinakow but my phone interactions were a bit less than stellar. Nice enough guy but hard to get information about neck specs. The website tends to use boiler plate language for each of the popular models he advertises for sale. Gently flattened D shape, Gentle Rounded C shape,etc. would be nice to include actual specs ex. .8301st to.960 12th, etc.
I will say 2 dealers that are without ? the most honest brokers I have the privaledge of knowing and doing business with are Peter Waggoner Lavonne Music Savage,Mn. and Dave Rogers Dave's Guitar La Crosse, Wi. You won't find 2 more honest people who have extensive knowledge of their wares~

[jazz.fred]

Bob,

Sorry. Got confused with another member. Has nothing to do with you. It was so long ago that I don't remember the context of the post.

Regrets.

[Top of the Arch!]

Ok, just wondering what was going on. Thanks for making it clear! Carry on. Bob

Bob,

Sorry. Got confused with another member. Has nothing to do with you. It was so long ago that I don't remember the context of the post.

Regrets.

[Jazz_175]

I think I know whom he was referring to.....Just read carefully the previous page of the thread.

[Drifter]

I have never bought anything from Joe Vinakow but my phone interactions were a bit less than stellar. Nice enough guy but hard to get information about neck specs. The website tends to use boiler plate language for each of the popular models he advertises for sale. Gently flattened D shape, Gentle Rounded C shape,etc. would be nice to include actual specs ex. .8301st to.960 12th, etc.
I will say 2 dealers that are without ? the most honest brokers I have the privaledge of knowing and doing business with are Peter Waggoner Lavonne Music Savage,Mn. and Dave Rogers Dave's Guitar La Crosse, Wi. You won't find 2 more honest people who have extensive knowledge of their wares~

The discription sometimes is goofy and makes me wonder how trustworthy the provided information is. Joe clearly uses older discriptions with cut & paste for other offers. Want an example?

This wonderful looking 1982 Guild Artist Award in sunburst suddenly is a blonde natural in the discription.

The neck profile is a comfy gentle D shape, action is smooth and low, and the tone is as rich and warm as the deeply ambered natural blonde finish.

https://www.archtop.com/ac_82AA_.html

[HeyNow]

I've bought 2 guitars from archtop.com this year. Relatively smooth. I wouldn't hesitate to buy from again.

Both guitars made it fine but the first was packed with an assortment of pieces of paper goods like old gift bags. Seemed a bit unprofessional for selling a $5k guitar, but I suppose paper padding is paper padding. There was a typo in the ad about the year of make - really didn't matter, but as others have said, there is copy-pasting going on that results in error.

The guitar also had the worst setup I've ever encountered from a guitar not bought from a private party. My luthier had to add a block of ebony beneath the ebony string holder on the bridge (not the bridge base). Otherwise, he couldn't notch the string notches deep enough w/o risking structural integrity. But, 1) I don't expect a guitar to fly 2500 miles and be setup well when it arrives and 2) the bridge issue could be considered a builder issue.

The second guitar transaction was pretty flawless. Joe got me the guitar's info very quickly. Small cardboard boxes were used for neck area side padding for shipping. Guitar was very much as described. The guitar even arrived in 1 day even though that's not necessarily promised when he ships to the East coast.

[HeyNow]

The discription sometimes is goofy and makes me wonder how trustworthy the provided information is. Joe clearly uses older discriptions with cut & paste for other offers. Want an example?

This wonderful looking 1982 Guild Artist Award in sunburst suddenly is a blonde natural in the discription.

The neck profile is a comfy gentle D shape, action is smooth and low, and the tone is as rich and warm as the deeply ambered natural blonde finish.

https://www.archtop.com/ac_82AA_.html

Wow - that is a gorgeous guit. Back seam looks a bit scary though.

[jazz.fred]

I think I know whom he was referring to.....Just read carefully the previous page of the thread.

Thanks, I did not remember the particulars of my post. Having re-read them, I stand by my comments.

[jasonc]

Wow - that is a gorgeous guit. Back seam looks a bit scary though.

It's not an open seam. Guild used to use a walnut(?) strip down the center of their backs. That's what you're seeing here. Just google "Guild Artist Award back" and you'll see several pics of blonde guitars that show what I'm talking about. I'm not sure why I keep coming to the defense of other makers seams lately haha.