Ms Lora/Mr Wu Special Project

[BigMikeinNJ]

​I too am sorry to hear that is an overlay, being you started the project thinking it was a cut into the wood inlay. I'd be disappointed if that was my dream project and found that out so late in the process.

Still for the money paid you're going to be getting a remarkable guitar that will give you many years of playing satisfaction.

[yolandateam]

Hi, Everyone,

I think some one still not understand the logos.

Lora is here now for explaining the logos questions.

The logos on headstock and inlays on fretboard are made from genuine mother of pearl or ablone (not plastics stickers)

The inlays on fretboard is inserted into the wood, You can see it when the guitar is in your hands. and the logos on head ,most of time, it is sticking on the the head by nitro-lacquer if customers requests. not by glue. I think you can see that the head will be painting by lacquer.

Even Mr Wu worked in Yunzhi, they did the logos in same way.

Just I checked Mr Wu why he didn't insert the logo into wood. He said 1) it is really need skills make the wood out and fix the logo especially letters,and Wasting time. 2) after finishing the guitar, you couldn't tell any differences from 2ways for the logos. 3) if the logo position is not correct, we can adjust it easily.

Here I made a logo steps for your understood easily.


If you have have questions, please leave message and I will try to answer you.

Yours
Lora

[BigMikeinNJ]

.
Thanks for explaining how it's done.

You learn something here all the time.

Mike

[Archtop Guy]

Ms Lora,Thank you for your excellent response to this problem. You and Mr Wu are doing a fine job on the guitars and with customer questions and desires.Keep up the good work!

[yolandateam]

Ms Lora,Thank you for your excellent response to this problem. You and Mr Wu are doing a fine job on the guitars and with customer questions and desires.Keep up the good work!

Hi, Archtop Guy,

Thanks for your encouraging words. Yes, I will try my best to do better.

Yours
Lora

[Archtop Guy]

Good luck with your mother,the animals and the move Mike. You won't be any further away from us as we'll all still meet here on the forum.

[iim7V7IM7]

Apologies in advance for raining on the collegial enthusiasm and celebration going on here, but I feel like I have to chime in.

I have seen much derivative work displayed in these build threads where various design features of guitars made by individual luthiers (or companies) both living and dead are requested to be implemented in commissions on this forum by Mr. Wu/Yolanda Dream etc.(and others). But putting the actual logo "MCampellone" on the peghead has taken "derivative" to bordering on "counterfeit". You also are referring to the guitar as a "Campallone Special" throughout this posting. I did read that they will be putting stickers on the inside, so upon careful inspection, assigning the correct provenance of the guitar is possible to Mr Wu. But honestly that really doesn't indemnify the situation in my view.

I suppose we all have differing borderlines of moralty based on culture when lifting others designs when patents or trademarks are not in place to protect the originator. Some folks feel it is ok to lift an element (e.g. A headstock shape, an f-hole etc.) others go so far as lifting many combinations of elements. I have made my disapproving views on this in the past here on the forum before. But to use the actual name/logo of a living builder on a guitar NOT MADE by him, is a new low in my view (it is bad enough after they're gone). I am frankly surprised that no one else has said anything as we have watched the guitar progress. I was at first pleased to see you put the name of Mr. Wu in Chinese on one of your commisions, but putting Mark's on the peghead has soured me on this whole venture.

Are we so enthusiastic at getting what we want that it is now "OK" to do this? A living craftsman's name is all they have. Perhaps I missed it, did you ask Mark if it was OK to use his name on a peghead of a guitar not made by him?

[BigMikeinNJ]

Bob,

You're a respected member here and I like you and what you stand for.
And when I ordered MY guitar I chose Mr Wu's name on the headstock for some of the reasons you just stated, my guitar is not a counterfeit but a tribute if you will the the Gibson influences that many great american arch top builders have used in their designs that have their name on them. I refer to my guitar as a Special copy, and it is. Just like the great Ibanez arch top copies of Gibson's classic designs that they did in the later 70's before coming up with their own designs. I don't hear you preaching about those, the name on the headstock is Ibanez, not Gibson.

That photo is of a guitar that a wealthy individual ordered, "money was no object" and this guy was such a difficult customer that repeatedly he told Mr. Wu it still had issues and Mr Wu bent over backwards to satisfy this guy that had never played it but based his complaints on photos alone. Eventually this tough customer walked away leaving Mr Wu holding the proverbial bag as it were. Eventually the guitar made it's way to Ms Tillie (an associate of Mr. Li) and was offered to a guy I know on Long Island who buys guitars in bulk orders from Yunzhi, bulk meaning 20 or more at a time. This friend of mine paid $900.00 for the guitar EMS'ed. Before he closed the deal he called me asking my advice. Once I saw the photos I thought, OK really sweet guitar. Wouldn't have worked for me because of the M Campellone name on the headstock. I contacted Lora and asked if Mr Wu could make one like it but with his name on it. And that's how mine started. So my only association with that piece is thru my friend.

So that's it... sorry you feel so angry about the other guitar that is not mine.

[BigMikeinNJ]

[iim7V7IM7]

Mike, first off my name is "Bob", not Jim... Thanks for clarifying the origin of the guitar and that it is not yours. I was unclear about that. I hope that you can understand my confusion. My comments regarding it, still stand true; they are just not pointed at you. I was just surprised that no one in this community had commented on it.

Jim,

You're a respected member here and I like you and what you stand for.
And when I ordered MY guitar I chose Mr Wu's name on the headstock for some of the reasons you just stated, my guitar is not a counterfeit but a tribute if you will the the Gibson influences that many great american arch top builders have used in their designs that have their name on them. I refer to my guitar as a Special copy, and it is. Just like the great Ibanez arch top copies of Gibson's classic designs that they did in the later 70's before coming up with their own designs. I don't hear you preaching about those, the name on the headstock is Ibanez, not Gibson.

That photo is of a guitar that a wealthy individual ordered, "money was no object" and this guy was such a difficult customer that repeatedly he told Mr. Wu it still had issues and Mr Wu bent over backwards to satisfy this guy that had never played it but based his complaints on photos alone. Eventually this tough customer walked away leaving Mr Wu holding the proverbial bag as it were. Eventually the guitar made it's way to Ms Tillie (an associate of Mr. Li) and was offered to a guy I know on Long Island who buys guitars in bulk orders from Yunzhi, bulk meaning 20 or more at a time. This friend of mine paid $900.00 for the guitar EMS'ed. Before he closed the deal he called me asking my advice. Once I saw the photos I thought, OK really sweet guitar. Wouldn't have worked for me because of the M Campellone name on the headstock. I contacted Lora and asked if Mr Wu could make one like it but with his name on it. And that's how mine started. So my only association with that piece is thru my friend.

So that's it... sorry you feel so angry about the other guitar that is not mine.

[BigMikeinNJ]

​See you guys in a couple weeks, I got packing to do and things to square away prior to my move. I'm sure you all will take care in the meantime.

Big

[BigMikeinNJ]

Bob,

Sorry I didn't know your given name. With my poor eyesight I took what I thought was the Jim part of your handle and addressed you as Jim, I updated that post just now.

Mike

[MaxTwang]

Mike, first off my name is "Bob", not Jim... Thanks for clarifying the origin of the guitar and that it is not yours. I was unclear about that. I hope that you can understand my confusion. My comments regarding it, still stand true; they are just not pointed at you. I was just surprised that no one in this community had commented on it.

There's a cultural thing going on here, in Mr. Wu's culture it's generally not immoral to make a something that already exists (a 'Campellone', 'Microsoft', etc) but in western culture it could be considered counterfeit or copyright infringement. Property rights are different in different societies.

There are those on this forum who have issue with D'Angelico's made in Korea by a company with the legal right to do so (yet nobody seems to take issue with Fenders made in Mexico or China?).

I do understand wanting a 'tribute' instrument with some of the characteristics of a Campellone, Gibson, etc.

If I do a Mr Wu build I would do a unique headstock and after the inlay kerfuffle, which has been gracefully handled by Ms Lora, I was thinking of something simple and contemporary - maybe a few simple geometric shapes inlaid into the wood. I love math and architecture so the challenge of the layout of simple shapes as art interests me and execution should be within the abilities of Mr. Wu.

We all love guitars and have our own reasons for a custom build.

[aboutIt]

Cultural differences aside, a craftsman who would put another's name on the outside of his wares is as likely to be a craftsman who would put another's name on the inside, as well. Yunzhi what I'm getting at?

[Hammertone]

Just to clarify the comments, and further clarify the photo: On the left is a shot of a genuine Campellone headstock/1st fret taken from a for-sale advertisement for a Campellone. I don't know the source. On the right is a cropped shot of the headstock/1st fret of a fake Campellone guitar with Campellone-style inlays, Campellone-style headstock shape , and the MCampellone wordmark inlay, built by Wu.

[iim7V7IM7]

Perhaps I was a bit unclear in my comments. My critical comment's were less directed at the Chinese builder who was fulfilling the requests of their client. I think you correctly pointed out that they may have different cultural norms governing what is or is not considered acceptable to do. I hope their respect for intellectual property develop and I suspect this cultural norm will change with time as they further integrate into the World economy. My comments were directed towards the clients located in the West and us as a community who should know better. In an age where downloading a stuggling musician's music for "free" has become the acceptable norm, I still optimistically hope that there will be a moral compass to guide us moving forward.

There's a cultural thing going on here, in Mr. Wu's culture it's generally not immoral to make a something that already exists (a 'Campellone', 'Microsoft', etc) but in western culture it could be considered counterfeit or copyright infringement. Property rights are different in different societies.

There are those on this forum who have issue with D'Angelico's made in Korea by a company with the legal right to do so (yet nobody seems to take issue with Fenders made in Mexico or China?).

I do understand wanting a 'tribute' instrument with some of the characteristics of a Campellone, Gibson, etc.

If I do a Mr Wu build I would do a unique headstock and after the inlay kerfuffle, which has been gracefully handled by Ms Lora, I was thinking of something simple and contemporary - maybe a few simple geometric shapes inlaid into the wood. I love math and architecture so the challenge of the layout of simple shapes as art interests me and execution should be within the abilities of Mr. Wu.

We all love guitars and have our own reasons for a custom build.

[Hammertone]

...My critical comment's were less directed at the Chinese builder who was fulfilling the requests of their client. I think you correctly pointed out that they may have different cultural norms governing what is or is not considered acceptable to do. I hope their respect for intellectual property develop and I suspect this cultural norm will change with time as they further integrate into the World economy. My comments were directed towards the clients located in the West and us as a community who should know better. In an age where downloading a stuggling musician's music for "free" has become the acceptable norm, I still optimistically hope that there will be a moral compass to guide us moving forward.

What a lovely and restrained post! I also hope that their respect for intellectual property develops as they further integrate into the World economy.

Just some useful information:

In trademark law (not patent law, not copyright law), passing off goods using someone else's trademarks and "trade dress" is illegal. Putting together a partscaster with Fender markings and selling it as a Fender guitar is a good example of this. Same as building a guitar with Gibson Les Paul markings and selling it as a genuine Les Paul.

This is pretty important stuff in the lives of some businesses. It has its upsides and downsides. I spent a couple of fun years in a consumer packaged goods environment figuring out how to get very close to competitor's trademarks without infringing on them. Trademark law is typically national in scope, although there are "famous" trademarks that are international in scope - Coca-Cola, Apple, Nestlé and the like.

The guitar in question is marked in a way that is clearly illegal. It happens to be a bad counterfeit, because it is clearly not a Campellone - different in every way except for the headstock shape, inlay shapes, and the explicit use of Mark's name. But the traditional test in trademark law is not how good a copy it is, but whether it can be passed off as the real thing - would "a moron in a hurry" be fooled by this? The answer is yes. I suppose we could argue about the correlation between people who purchase jazz guitars and morons but that's another story.

[BigMikeinNJ]

Well I can see this thread is gonna be at the top of the heap a long time...
You guys are gonna beat this horse a long time.

Again my headstock says WHAT ?? on it. Mr. Wu in Chinese characters, and it is not a drop dead copy of a Campellone in so many ways. It clearly is labeled inside and signed by Lora, Mr and Mrs Wu and in no way suggests it is a Campellone.

Perhaps you should take Mr. Campellone to task for borrowing the general shape of the Gibson headstock, or using the body shape and pickup placement of an Ibanez JP20, or the F holes reminiscent of a D'Aquisto in this guitar... Hmmm ????

I'm sure you'll go on and on for some time. No one here is gonna debate with you. Have fun.

[mr. beaumont]

There's a difference between borrowing a similar shape and making a counterfeit.

I hope they do figure this out. I'd love to consider a Wu/Yunzhi build, but as long as those shops are churning out counterfeits, some of them of guitars by builders I've met personally and who I have great respect for--then it's a no go.

For the record, I'm not anti Chinese guitar. I've owned several and am looking at one right now (a cheaper gypsy jazz guitar)

Bummer too, these latest 18" guitars look fabulous...they're getting really good at those bursts.

[2bornot2bop]

Morality police. Uh oh. Here we go!

[abelljo]

In western culture people are mainly watching their profits and safeguarding from competition. I don't know if this is immoral or moral. People have been observing the ideas of others, copying or improving upon those ideas for centuries. Every company in the planet at some point has done it. Some examples, the 1911 pistol, the hot dog, soda, furniture, vehicles, etc, etc, etc. But in the guitar world everyone is very protective and are be willing to stand behind the brands they love and protect them. I for one get nothing from the Gibson's of the world. When they start paying me royalties then I'll care. I don't work or represent any of them and as long as they charge as much as a car for their instruments I'll keep shopping around for better deals that fit a starving jazz guitar enthusiast like myself.

BTW, who has the money for the real deal will pay for the real deal and will not settle for anything less. Does not matter if they make a reasonable facsimile in Asia or not. There are a lot of great players that had to settle for the Ibanez, Burny and Greco copies of the great archtops because like many here were starving musicians.

[MaxTwang]

BigMikeInNJ (soon to be Chicago),

I don't think anyone is taking issue with your build, I certainly don't, as it clearly has Mr Wu's name on it. Your guitar is not a copy of anything, but honors some design elements of other builders. I think it is a beautiful guitar and inspired me to think about what I would want in a custom build.

The issue is with the 'M. Campellone' guitar - it may be a good example of Mr Wu's work, but to me putting 'M. Campellone' on it just isn't right.

Hammertone makes a good 'moron' argument: If I saw that guitar on eBay or Reverb I might not study the pics close enough to see the inconsistencies with the original and buy it. An unscrupulous seller can make it difficult to get a refund (if you caught it in time); I've been there on a 'condition not as described', it took sending the guitar for an appraisal to get eBay/PayPal to refund. That takes time and money you will never get back.

[mr. beaumont]

No, I said I won't be ordering, didn't say anything about anybody else. Do as you please, I do not judge. If you lived closer, I'd invite you over to play that beauty you have coming in, as a matter of fact.

[mr. beaumont]

BigMikeInNJ (soon to be Chicago),

I don't think anyone is taking issue with your build, I certainly don't, as it clearly has Mr Wu's name on it. Your guitar is not a copy of anything, but honors some design elements of other builders. I think it is a beautiful guitar and inspired me to think about what I would want in a custom build.

The issue is with the 'M. Campellone' guitar - it may be a good example of Mr Wu's work, but to me putting 'M. Campellone' on it just isn't right.

Hammertone makes a good 'moron' argument: If I saw that guitar on eBay or Reverb I might not study the pics close enough to see the inconsistencies with the original and buy it. An unscrupulous seller can make it difficult to get a refund (if you caught it in time); I've been there on a 'condition not as described', it took sending the guitar for an appraisal to get eBay/PayPal to refund. That takes time and money you will never get back.

My like button is missing, so I'll just quote it and say so.

Big Mike, what part of town?

[iim7V7IM7]

We all know that your commission does not say "MCampellone" so please let's put that to rest.

But you were showing another person's Mr.Wu commision and did not seem to have any concern that it was a "counterfeit" copy. Your last post also confused me a bit. Are you suggesting that it is "ok" to put another builder's name on a guitar that they did not build because much of Mark's design language is derivative of Gibson?

Perhaps there is a different point where something "crosses the line" for you in a spectrum of gray? As I stated in my earlier post, there is a difference between differing levels of "derivative" and "counterfeit". I watched these images go up for a few days and I was frankly surprised that no one commented.

Again, I am happy for you and your excitement regarding your custom commission. It is not my intent to rain on your parade.

Well I can see this thread is gonna be at the top of the heap a long time...
You guys are gonna beat this horse a long time.

Again my headstock says WHAT ?? on it. Mr. Wu in Chinese characters, and it is not a drop dead copy of a Campellone in so many ways. It clearly is labeled inside and signed by Lora, Mr and Mrs Wu and in no way suggests it is a Campellone.

Perhaps you should take Mr. Campellone to task for borrowing the general shape of the Gibson headstock, or using the body shape and pickup placement of an Ibanez JP20, or the F holes reminiscent of a D'Aquisto in this guitar... Hmmm ????

I'm sure you'll go on and on for some time. No one here is gonna debate with you. Have fun.