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NOOOOOOOOOO. They should couple the preamp to a 300w class D power amp . Then you'd have a great jazz amp with tone controls in the right place and decent headroom. Even the minibrain is underpowered with a loud drummer.
Originally Posted by Longways to Go
Nowadays, the 300w class D poweramp will weigh less than 10oz
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06-05-2015 04:36 PM
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It would sound different.
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That's a YESSSSSSSS !! JZ. I totally agree with you (for once!) I couldn't care less about historical accuracy -- only good sound & reliability.
big class D power with a polytone pre-amp -- 8", 10", 12", 15" speaker options -- maybe some lightweight neo speakers too? Yum.
of course, I'd want my reverb, too
probably too cool to work in the real world though.
It would most likely get mucked up on the way to production by the bean-counters . . .
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I disagree. I have a poly baby brute that Jon Shaw modded with a 180w class D power amp. Sounds the same for all practical purposes; the only difference is that it's now giggable in louder settings, even with the 8" speaker. I can't see why you say it would sound different, if just replacing the power amp. Originally Posted by Greentone
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Aside from the electronics, part of the character of a polytone amp came from the speakers.
I would love to hear if you know of any speakers which sound same/similar to the original polytone speakers.
I bought a broken polytone just for its speaker. I am using it as a cabinate. It has an Eminence made speaker in it.
I also had a made in China speaker that is used in the more recent polytone. The two do sound very similar.
Thanks
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it's funny that folks are waxing poetic about the polytones. In the late '70s my dad was friend's with herb ellis' and barney kessel's agent. I got to drive them around whenever they played at the annapolis inn. I remember them both saying how they hated the tone of the polytones but loved the weight.
Now folks wax poetic about the glorious sound of polytone. I remember them being tubby and with no headroom. Very grainy sounding, broke up easily and not good with a loud drummer.
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Originally Posted by jzucker
Dont forget, those folks grew up with the holy grails of amps, super reverbs, twins, tweeds, etc etc... Hard to go from the holy grail, to a little ss amp. It is still worth noting, even though many didn't love the sound of their polytone..... They still used them.
Most people sadly don't have the experience with those amps now. I know I am not dragging my sr anywhere, even if it does sound better than the polytone. That being said, polytones are still in my opinion, the classic dark jazz tone, warts and all.
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i can't agree with that. None of the classic jazz tones in history were done with polytones! The tone joe pass got after he switched to polytone compared to his tone on the catch me and joy spring? fuggedaboutit!
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Originally Posted by jzucker
i can't agree with that. None of the classic jazz tones in history were done with polytones! The tone joe pass got after he switched to polytone compared to his tone on the catch me and joy spring? fuggedaboutit!
You either have the classic fender tube sound (really tmb tonestack sound), or the dark ss sound, which there is no better example of then a polytone.
My ears tend to like fender, my back tends to like polytone.
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none of the jazz guys from the '60s/'70s era that I talked to liked polytone's sound. Pass, Ellis, Kessel, Roberts, Martino though they all liked the portability. Benson got some good sounds out of one for a couple of his albums but he was running in stereo with a tube amp. The combination of the tubes and solid state makes for a really fat tone.
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People in the 70's -80's used Polytones because they were convenient.
People in the 90's-00's used Polytones because their heroes used them and they actually grew to dig the sound.
People in the '10's use Mambos and Henriksens because the Polytone idea has been shrunk and beefed up in power.
Says this Polytone owner/lover. They're still damn good...at what they do.
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I've always liked the dark and grainy sound of older Polytones and would pick one up if the price and timing were right -- they just don't show up in Australia that often. Importing one and rewiring the transformer is an option though. I remember Emily Remler said in an interview in the mid-80s that although she had used her Mini Brute for several years and loved the portability it only sounded 'okay' and her favourite sound was from a Fender Twin. However, she couldn't lift a Twin.
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Jim Hall seemed to like the Polytone sound, although I vastly preferred his tone with the P90 in his ES-175 and his GA-50.
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Guys...I gigged with an 80s MB II last night and will be using a 90s MB III tonight for a jazz bass gig. The 75 to 100 watt constraints are not a big deal in comparison to the tone. Are drummers that insensitive? (Not the ones that I play with.)
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if you freelance and/or play with a drummer who likes elvin or tony or tain they will be loud. Like 100db loud. Guys who never have problems with feedback or who use 60w amps need not apply. Originally Posted by Greentone
It also depends on whether you are playing jazz gigs as a featured jazz group or just playing background music. When the cleveland bop stop was around, the gigs got really loud but it was a listening club. At nighttown, it's more of a dinner club so the drummers are restrained.
Ask Paul Bollenback or Randy Johnston how a polytone works with Tain!
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Originally Posted by jzucker
I would ASSume most of these gigs where you are not background music, have a sound system and capability to mic an amp, no?
Second, my minibrute iv is pretty damn loud. Certainly louder than I would be able to use with a hollow body without massive feedback. Certainly louder than a piano or other acoustic instrument. Which brings me back to point 1.
Lastly, if you are playing a setting where massive volume is required, bring a twin reverb and make everyone within a thousand feet pay for your back pain!!!
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I owned 6 mini brutes, 2 from the 70's, 1 from the 80's and three from the 2000's (with the sonic circuit). Until Rich Raezer brought his cabinets to the market, I thought Polytone was it. Great jazz guitar sound with save your back portability. that said, I found Polytones to lack headroom and to be unreliable. Cabinet rattle, reverb tank failure, speaker failure and even electronic component failure all took place on the six Polytone combos that I owned. I think that we have better choices today. You can no longer buy a Polytone speaker today ( an integral part of the sound IMO) and I am not so sure that cloning the circuit or making a Polytone pedal will get that classic sound.
Many of the existing vintage Polytones have replacement speakers and other components and no longer sound like the originals.
Along with Fender, the Polytone amp sound is a classic jazz tone. I have a 2008 Polytone Mini Brain that I use as a backup for my Acoustic Image Clarus. I do like the spring reverb in the Polytone better than the digital reverb in the Clarus, but the Clarus is lighter, more reliable, has more clean headroom etc.
For sheer portability, the AER Compact 60 beats the Polytone hands down.
For Tone and relability, the AI/RE combo beats the Polytone hands down.
A Fender Tube amp is the standard that Polytone was after. Vintage examples of Fender Tube amps are available and rebuildable ( if you want to carry them)
For all their faults, I have fond memories of my Polytone combo amps, but I have moved on. If somone ressurects Polytones with a more reliable build, I would welcome that as an additional choice.
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Agreed. There was a period when I wouldn't consider showing up without a Twin Reverb. Nobody try to tell me that a Twin and a Polytone are comparable because the wattages match. In practice, I have to say that a Polytone is half as loud.
Still, I used to gig with a drummer who learned by sitting in front of Elvin and Tony every night in NYC. He was later in a band with Jaco. Still, the guy is sensitive and can be heard over with a Deluxe Reverb. Been there.
Oh, I tired of the loud gigs and stopped taking them. I don't mind a big band at full, acoustic cry, but I prefer not to play jazz at rock volumes.
I guess in Wonka land I'm Grandpa Joe, not Charlie.
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This reminds me, you can get a massive volume boost out of a polytone by hitting the front with a boost or eq pedal. Btw if you haven't played with an eq pedal and a polytone, you may be surprised.
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
to your point about reliability, your comparing amps that are 35 years old with amps that are new. Have a good tech recap and tighten up the insides, replace the reverb tank while your in there. You will be good for another 35 years.
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Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Originally Posted by jzucker
Yes, Jack, I think we're in agreement, that's exactly why I'm building the preamp.
I'm sorting out the cap values for the three pots in the Baxandall tone stack.
Treble about 5000Hz
Mid about 500Hz
Bass about 100Hz
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There are a few but in most of the clubs around here and in DC, the band provides their own mix. I'm not sure about the IV but the mini brain wasn't clean enough even with 2x12" 4 ohm cab. Originally Posted by vintagelove
Also, remember that some of us play fusion and other styles, not just standards. I've been to plenty of gigs where a twin didn't have enough headroom. Twins have great headroom with a strat but bring a hollowbody with .014 strings and it's a different story. Again, dinner club 50w is fine. But not always.
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also, i'm not necessarily talking volume. I'm talking pure clean tone. The ability to play above a loud band hitting block chords and/or octaves and not having any distortion. There's a reason benson uses a hot rod deluxe *AND* a polytone even when he's mic'd at a concert setting. It's important to have that loud presence on stage. Get the mix right on the bandstand. It's impossible to play when you're not loud enough onstage even if it can be fixed in the mix. At least that's my experience.
I'm not a beginner. I've been gigging for 40 years.
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re: hitting the Polytone with an equalizer--here is the one I used to use:
No wall wart! Built-in AC power supply.
jzucker: you are correct about the MiniBrain not being that clean. None of the Polytones are particularly clean. There is something about the old, first-generation preamp ICs that is a little gritty (and noisy). The grit is, in part, what folks were going for with _that_ sound. Generally, when you modernize the preamp ICs to lower the noise floor, you lose the grit.
People complain about the newer Polytone amps not having the soul of the older ones. What they are actually complaining about is Gumina and company switching over to modern ICs in the preamp--the old ones were no longer available. They sound too clean.
However, if you want the 21st century "hi-fi" guitar sound, you should probably go with the AI--pristine preamp/high-power, class-D power amp. It's a completely different philosophy. Gumina was intending the MiniBrute to be worked HARD--3-ohm load, and all that. Those 300-watt, class-D amps are loafing, most of the time.
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the grit is *NOT* what folks were going for. Definitely not true. I was using polytone amps in the early '70s . My dad was one of the first polytone users in DC. I can tell you that *NONE* of the guys using them in our area wanted grit. They all wanted a lightweight, clean amplifier for club-dates. That's what the amp was invented for. Maybe years later, folks waxed poetic about the sins and wanted the newer amps to have the sins of the old but I can tell you that none of the guys I played with wanted a grainy tone. Just about every polytone player I knew hated that and tried replacing the speakers to get it to be cleaner.
I guess you can talk about vintage transistor tone in the same way we talk about vintage tube tone but none of the guys I knew wanted that.
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