The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by supersoul
    I really enjoy all of your posts, and I hope that a few jerks don't ruin it for the rest of us. German archtops are relatively unknown, at least to me, and I've learned a lot from all that you have shared.
    Indeed! Please, do continue sharing your vast knowledge! There are some of us that are here to learn and appreciate even more these amazing guitars. Thank you, as always!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  4. #53

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    I posted the CL because it's for sale locally, I had already read all the threads, and I hoped someone could offer more insight.
    It's not my guitar.
    Who knows why the seller is selling it? Many around here have not worked much or had reduced hours since March.
    If people feel these Langs are good, let's discuss.

  5. #54

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    Anyone who does not consider background information to be significant will certainly not be very interested in the background and specific construction secrets that Lang used - and which differ in a positive way from the usual well-known brands. Of course there are no secrets in guitar and violin making, only builders with more or less knowledge and skills. In the end, Artur Lang, like Lloyd Loar before him, used the knowledge of centuries-old violin making in transferring it to archtop guitars.

    While the vast majority of American archtop guitars moved away from acoustically designed construction by the early 1950s at the latest, with a few exceptions such as D'Angelico, originally a violin maker, and his disciple D'Aquisto, Lang - also trained at a violin-making school - developed his own instruments in the direction of an uncompromising up-to-date electro-acoustic guitar, which shows all the advantages of an acoustic archtop even more intensely: high acoustic volume (if desired) while reducing susceptibility to feedback, excellent projection, maximum dynamic range, very pronounced balance and eveness across the entire register, and all of this with a pleasant rich and warm sound. Here you don't just hear the sound of the respective pickup or amplifier!
    In archtop guitar making, starting with the handful of Super Special models that Roger launched at the end of the 1940s (and the guitar on offer is still quite reminiscent of its role models), in his later life Lang laid down a steep learning curve and knowledge that is unlike any other guitar maker I heard of.


    In an earlier forum I once pointed out the difference between American and German music listeners in terms of sound perception in the post-war decades. You might have to know that German recording technology had produced some extraordinarily good results up til 1945 ... companies like Neumann and Telefunken, and others ... and that the Americans had not only confiscated all the millions of German Reich patents in Berlin, but also, as one of their first actions in Munich, recording devices with newly developed oxide technology, a milestone back then.
    In post-war Germany, many were fascinated by American jazz music, which finally revealed a touch of freedom, democratic society and coolness. Well, the preceding Weimar Republic had already been a democracy with almost unheard-of personal freedoms, at least in the capital Berlin. During the Third Reich some art forms were arbitrarily declared as 'degenerate', and for years brutally suppressed and defamed.
    The sound ideal of the war winner - and after the war most Germans just wanted to forget and live again, rather belong to the winner than to the humiliated loser - consisted of the AFN broadcasting in my youth: only to be heard louder, extremely bass-heavy, the mids not resolved very finely, the highs not pronounced, the sound character anything but clear ... as I said, not all older people, but young people loved this, it was their sound of freedom and a new age.

    I still remember how amazed I’d always been to listen to the old SABA tube radio when visiting my grandparents, the sound of which embodied the opposite of AFN: very balanced, transparent and crystal clear with fine resolution even at low or high volume, and this with a pleasant basic warmth of the sound. Later I learned that many American jazz musicians valued the MPS Records (MPS Records - Wikipedia ), the successor of the SABA Records label, for exactly the same reasons, and that the Blue Note Records founders had always placed above-average value on sound quality.

    What does this have to do with Artur Lang's archtop guitars?
    Well, his instruments in their class embody all of these latter sound virtues, which have now almost died out in the digital constant swirl: transparency, good tone selectivity and projection, pronounced mids and clear highs with a pleasantly warm and balanced basic sound across the entire fingerboard. If you are looking for a pronounced bass range and the moldy thunk or mushy sound that some people adore so much, you are wrong with Lang guitars! And even with the Langs you often have to turn the bass back further.
    Some here seem to keep asking themselves why their electro-acoustic guitars sound so standardized and undifferentiated, with little individuality of the instruments and lacking acoustic dynamic range. The obvious answer is: it can only be due to the construction of these guitars and / or amplifiers.


    There is also a lot to explain regarding the tube amplifier construction. In America hardly ever fabulous ECC808 were installed in the pre-stage and EL503 in the output stage (Telefunken, Siemens, Valvo, Lorenz). Admittedly, these tubes are precious, and some only use them in the studio or at home. But this is exactly what they have in common with Lang guitars: anyone who has ever played an excellently tuned Lang on a corresponding Hohner Orgaphon MH amplifier, and does not necessarily want to belong to the group of thunk and mud supporters, can really only wonder why his mind hasn't already be open much earlier to constructions that could open up another world of sound. Btw., some of these 1960's Hohners had an "American" sound switch, so its developers must have been aware of the basic sound preferences.

    One question has occupied me for a long time, especially as an outspoken fan of bebop and hardbop, and not only with the ears of a saxophonist: why do so many players go to great lengths to acquire a vintage guitar, not just in financial terms, but also subsequent mods and pickup changing, just to come close enough to the sound of their great musician role models - yet under the above-mentioned sound aspects it must be classified at best as so-so?
    For the rare Lang players (sometimes their scarcity looks like a blessing, sometimes a curse) the most understandable thing would be the fact that the hero musicians in jazz could hardly earn so much money to be able to afford other guitars, and were often dependent on endorsement contracts from the manufacturer. But today, in the 3rd millennium with - compared to the 1950s - for many residents of western countries globally so immensely expanded opportunities, in an on average far more affluent generation of heirs, shouldn't we think more, instead of less, of the bigger picture? Instead, in some places there is more and more omphaloskepsis, self-deception and purely commercial considerations as real interest, and, although the general interest in archtop guitars fortunately seems to be growing again: the knowledge about the application of violin making to the acoustic optimization of (electro) acoustic archtop guitars beyond the rusty rails has always been limited; it seems to be stagnating at best.


    Discussions about Lang Guitars? Yes, please, I like to listen - but please not under the aspect of the two and a half most frequently asked questions: What do I have, what is it worth (and how do I best turn it into money)?
    According to many years of experience, web pages and fora are, IMO, completely unsuitable for discussions going into constructive finer details. Such matters can only be discussed in face-to-face meetings under the desirable civilized and friendly conditions.
    Last edited by Ol' Fret; 09-02-2020 at 04:13 AM.

  6. #55

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    Thanks, Ol' Fret, for the insight into post-war music and sound reproduction. I had no idea about any of this.
    However, the odds of me flying to Germany are pretty slim right now so I'll have to rely on internet discussions.

  7. #56

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    Some may have noticed: the gradual publication of a masterpiece of its own is under way.

    Artur Lang Gitarren – Herbert Rittinger

  8. #57

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    Hooray for Google Translate!

  9. #58

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    Thanks for mentioning this, Ol’ Fret!

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmajor9
    Thanks for mentioning this, Ol’ Fret!

    You're welcome, cmajor9!


    An English translation by ... uh, oh ... will follow around the 50th anniversary of Lang's death.
    According to the importance of Artur Lang as the best German archtop guitar maker, I tried to type this translation in a posh accent, but somehow it doesn't work out. Brian Sewell (RIP), the most famous and controversial British art critic, was always my role model when it comes to English accent - hehe:

    Last edited by Ol' Fret; 10-03-2020 at 07:19 AM.

  11. #60

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    In all of my 35 + years as a pro player I have met only ONE fellow pro player who actually uses a LANG archtop. He had ordered it from the man himself, a long time ago and interestingly enough, the guitar has undergone several modifications in it's lifespan all in the attempt to get it to sound more like an electric archtop ... the owner even had the top routed out for a large humbucker at the neck, along with holes for the volume and tone pots. These mods have since been revoked, the holes have been plugged and the guitar now has a Johnny Smith style floating pickup attached to the fingerboard. We always referred to this guitar as "the layer cake" due to the decorative stripes of binding on the rims ....

    I kick myself for having passed up several occasions where I could have bought such a guitar for a reasonable price - I could put it to very good use now in just the way it was meant to : as an acoustic rhythm guitar in an Old Time/Swing setting. With a floating pickup / mini-microphone combo into my Bud amp it would easily cover all the bases ....
    Attached Images Attached Images Artur Lang Archtop-bildschirmfoto-2020-10-03-um-12-51-37-jpg 

  12. #61

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    << In all of my 35 + years as a pro player I have met only ONE fellow pro player who actually uses a LANG archtop. >>


    Most German jazz guitars pros have never hold a Artur Lang archtop in their hands; quite a few have never heard of this name.
    The number of those pros who once owned and played a Lang in order to swap it for a model with the big G in the 1980s is increasing inexorably - and who would do nothing better than to undo it. Most of them are old though experienced geezers now.

    Gunter 'Ruit' Kraus has always been an exception in the German area: Gitarren | Jazz for You

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' Fret
    << In all of my 35 + years as a pro player I have met only ONE fellow pro player who actually uses a LANG archtop. >>


    Most German jazz guitars pros have never hold a Artur Lang archtop in their hands; quite a few have never heard of this name.
    The number of those pros who once owned and played a Lang in order to swap it for a model with the big G in the 1980s is increasing inexorably - and who would do nothing better than to undo it. Most of them are old though experienced geezers now.

    Gunter 'Ruit' Kraus has always been an exception in the German area: Gitarren | Jazz for You

    I consider myself experienced but in NO WAY am I a geezer .....
    Been playing with Gunter off and on for close to 30 years now.....

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by gitman
    I consider myself experienced but in NO WAY am I a geezer .....
    Been playing with Gunter off and on for close to 30 years now.....

    Bwahaha - we could well be in the same age group, and I'm definitely an old geezer! What a tender word of endearment, so much better sounding than the corresponding German "alter Knacker".
    According to the poll about the average age of the forum members, I'm not alone in this ... other wise this would be a topic of the next song to be written entitled: Where have all the geezers gone?!




    << I could put it to very good use now in just the way it was meant to : as an acoustic rhythm guitar in an Old Time/Swing setting >>

    Um, well, a bit frowning here. Even most Lang big-body flagship guitars originally came with a pickup supplied by the master himself. Lang's small body models (shorthand symbols given by HR: HMS1, HML1, HMDL, HMDK) are the epitome of fine electric thinline or semi-acoustic guitars - not only in Germany.



  15. #64

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    Man, I love looking at these old Langs.

  16. #65

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    Perhaps one of our German-speaking members would be kind enough to post a simple English translation/summary of Sonntag's comments in the clip between 7:50 and 9:34. I can slowly stumble my way through written German, and Google Translate is pretty good these days, but I can only pick out a few words from the clip - I hear several brand names and would love to know what was said.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone


    Perhaps one of our German-speaking members would be kind enough to post a simple English translation/summary of Sonntag's comments in the clip between 7:50 and 9:34. I can slowly stumble my way through written German, and Google Translate is pretty good these days, but I can only pick out a few words from the clip - I hear several brand names and would love to know what was said.
    The video link has disappeared...

    but if you click on CC at the bottom of the video window it gives you some sort of Google automatic transcription. It only works ok, but it did help me to understand a few more of the words. Any little bit helps for me with German!

    Did Lang ever build guitars with two humbuckers and the electronics mounted directly to the top?

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by supersoul
    Did Lang ever build guitars with two humbuckers and the electronics mounted directly to the top?
    Rittinger's articles has pix of a few Langs with pickups and electronics mounted directly to their tops. Whether any of these left his shop this way is a good question. I suspect that this one did:
    Attached Images Attached Images Artur Lang Archtop-lang-doublecut-jpg 

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone
    ...a simple English translation/summary of Sonntag's comments in the clip between 7:50 and 9:34...
    The short of it would be that Lang's guitars were built using "the German carve" which makes the tops and rims thicker, while the central part of the top remains pretty flat, which is good for stability but not so much for the sound. He prefers Hoyers, when it comes to German-made archtops.

    The heart of his comment, however, is not in the description of the build method (that was summarized earlier - there could be more to Lang's builds than simple German carve) but in his description of the result - to Sonntag, Lang's archtops sound nasal and top-heavy.

    Oh yes, the link:

  20. #69

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    If that is what Sonntag is saying, then he is at least showing his ignorance, since Lang’s are not made with the German carve technique (most Rogers, some Musimas, and some smaller makers are). The comments about sound are more subjective; I wonder if he is comparing to later archtops that are electro-acoustic?

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmajor9
    If that is what Sonntag is saying, then he is at least showing his ignorance, since Lang’s are not made with the German carve technique (most Rogers, some Musimas, and some smaller makers are).
    Somebody even mentioned in the comment under the video, that Sonntag often mixes Roger and Lang - "Wenzel Rossmeisl was the inventor of the German Carve for Roger guitars, Lang carved normally. This is confused in the video."

    Quote Originally Posted by cmajor9
    The comments about sound are more subjective; I wonder if he is comparing to later archtops that are electro-acoustic?
    Some common ground can perchance be established here - earlier in this thread there were mentions that Langs sound clear and more defined than those "muddy" American archtops. Perhaps it can be stated, as a neutral generalization, that Langs tend to be on the bright side of the tonal spectrum. Judging by their recordings, I'd agree.

    But subjectively? One man's "clear" is another man's "piercing", and one man's "muddy" is another man's "warm". It can be like Stradivarius vs Guarnerius - a lot of people prefer the latter because of the more "melancholy", "dark", "gutsy" tone.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket Roll
    Somebody even mentioned in the comment under the video, that Sonntag often mixes Roger and Lang - "Wenzel Rossmeisl was the inventor of the German Carve for Roger guitars, Lang carved normally. This is confused in the video."



    Some common ground can perchance be established here - earlier in this thread there were mentions that Langs sound clear and more defined than those "muddy" American archtops. Perhaps it can be stated, as a neutral generalization, that Langs tend to be on the bright side of the tonal spectrum. Judging by their recordings, I'd agree.

    But subjectively? One man's "clear" is another man's "piercing", and one man's "muddy" is another man's "warm". It can be like Stradivarius vs Guarnerius - a lot of people prefer the latter because of the more "melancholy", "dark", "gutsy" tone.
    I think you can say objectively that Langs typically have more “top end” or “headroom” than many other archtops. Whether this is perceived as a bug or a feature is, as you say, more subjective.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone
    Rittinger's articles has pix of a few Langs with pickups and electronics mounted directly to their tops. Whether any of these left his shop this way is a good question. I suspect that this one did:
    In the Rittinger article it says that that one is a semi-acoustic, so I guess there's a center block inside the body. Another one has what looks like a bolt on neck along with the mounted pickups, knobs and control plate:

    Artur Lang Archtop-hoe-01-jpgArtur Lang Archtop-hoe-04-jpg

    It also mentions models that Lang built for other makers such as Gustav Glassl, Alosa, Mastro Arturo. At least that Lang supplied the body, neck and parts for them to put together. Another model looks like a Neubauer, with the slanted fret markers.

    Interesting to research a guitar maker whose guitars I'll probably never get a chance to play!

  24. #73

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    The year is getting old - just like us.
    Fortunately, there are some things on which age has very little, if any, impact. I'm talking about some NOS Alpine spruce and maple archtop plates shaped according to Artur Lang's original specifications.
    While the vast majority of Lang's large full-hollow body models (> 17") show a side depth of c. 8 to 9.5cm, he certainly didn't make more than one single batch of large-body thinline models. Some call thinlines "semi- hollow" body guitars, though the term "semi" would often imply a larger wooden block inside the body, comparable to ES-335 and similar guitars, a different construction. Lang's thinline guitars, the smaller (15.5 to 16") single- and double-cutaway archtops, as well as the extremely rare large-body (single-cut) guitars show no such 'sustain' and 'feedback-fighting' blocks. They were built in the same way like Lang's "big boys", though he used pressed solid plates (made by the Kollitz company) just on some of the smaller thinlines.

    A more than striking feature of one surviving Lang large-body thinline (sides 5.5cm), saved by HR, was it's balanced sound in direct comparison to its better-known full-hollow body siblings: it's really hard to hear more than just a subtle difference of the acoustic tone. Surprisingly, the thinline bass range isn't compromised in any hard way. We have had a different experience with any tested carved thinline guitars so far, no matter which brand.


    Meanwhile, the third large-body thinline is ready (two Supers, one f-hole SDL). All of them are c. 5cm deep and were made by using original NOS Lang plates. And all of them show by far most of the same great and balanced acoustic voice of their full-hollow-bodied siblings. Well, you know, any electric or electro-acoustic guitar will mainly boast the corresponding pickup and amp sound - unless having that great and balanced acoustic voice in the first place. The fine playing (and recording) of so many Tele guitarists prove that - definitely great guitars of their own.

    So, little surprising, for making great sounding archtop guitars you need
    the ever same old ingredients:
    a fine and time-proven guitar design, well selected woods, neat work, and, obviously, plates with the right arching curves, heights and gradation pattern. The last factors could define the real "mind" of such arched instruments - making the actual guitar side depth much less important.

    Artur Lang Archtop-dscf6453c-jpg

  25. #74

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    Welcome back, doc.
    "Meanwhile, the third large-body thinline is ready (two Supers, one f-hole SDL). All of them are c. 5cm deep and were made by using original NOS Lang plates. And all of them show by far most of the same great and balanced acoustic voice of their full-hollow-bodied siblings."
    Hollenbach plates? Who is the builder? More pix!

  26. #75

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    That looks VERY interesting - please tell us more about these models !