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>> The stronger and most accurate that [neck] joint is, the better the guitar is going to sound. That's the secret, so that when you play the note on the guitar, it's solid, it rings out better, and the reason is because of that joint. << - Jimmy D'Aquisto
In another, similar quote D'Aquisto stated that the step of fitting the neck to the body would be one of the most critical and important steps of the whole guitar making procedure.
Artur Lang knew that long before Jimmy. The question remains: why has the better part of archtop guitar makers almost been obsessed with the right coupling of the guitar neck to the body? Simple craft honor? No way. The old guitar makers knew that the neck is sort of a "tuning fork", acting as an additive to the tone, the more on steel string guitars where the neck joins the body around the 14th fret (or higher). They had always just been experimenting and soon got to know that a sloppily performed neck-body coupling would be unfavorable in relation to the guitar's tone.
Lang even knew a bit more. As a former war metal aircraft builder, he was aware of the physical laws of statics, dynamics, lightweight and stiff construction, vibrations, useful and harmful (motor) resonances, and resonance interferences. "He consistently implemented the knowledge he had gained in the construction of his guitars" (HR).
One hallmark of his archtop guitar necks is the low conicity or angle of taper - seen from the fretboard - over the entire length of the neck/fretboard, measured from the zero fret or the nut, to the last (highest) fret. This is true for all necks, no matter if these sport a 40mm, 43mm or 45mm width (at zero fret). According to HR, most values are between 5 and 8mm. In comparison, Gibson L-5 necks, in facto, most US-made guitars, show often a conicity of c. 14mm. My 1996 L-5 WM must be a better one with only 13.5mm difference.
So why did Lang stick to what he found, at first sight a quite unimportant feature for most players?
The simple physical answer is: interferences, especially destructive interferences.
Just try the following: take two differently tapered necks (or already tapered neck blanks or even tapered wooden strips meant for making guitar necks). Let's simply call one the almost parallel Lang-style, the other one the wide-taper-style.
Fix the necks/strips in a way, so that they can relatively freely vibrate, and start tapping or knocking from the nut down to the last fret. What you're going to hear or measure could look like this:
Like many small workshop luthiers are still doing, Lang made guitars in batches (mostly six guitars for Lang). The fully assembled necks (just the neck joint area still being rough) were premade in larger stocks.
Now this is what Lang did: he coupled/selected the neck to each body according to the same (or close enough) main air resonance (body) and main neck resonance. The main air resonance can couple with the main top resonance, so Lang guitars have sort of a brilliant, built-in 'triple' resonance, regularly by intention - not just incidentally to be found on some examples from other makers/manufacturers.
In the scheme suggested above that would mean Lang would have combined a particular guitar body with the main air resonance c2 with a particular neck that shows the same, or about the same, main neck resonance. Sometimes, builders talk of a specific "neck mode", but more often stay vaguely about what they exactly mean by this.
If you couple a Lang neck that generates one single defined, strong main resonance to a suitable body, destructive interferences should be expected to be way lower. Due to its shape, a wide-taper neck shows many different, though generally weaker resonances - the total energy input by the nut or zero fret splits up in multiple resonance ranges. Only one or two of the latter (around c2 in the example above) will couple with the guitar body's main air resonance - and that coupling will be weaker in comparison to a Lang-style neck.
The energy of vibrating strings is transferred to the guitar body through 1. the bridge, and 2. the nut or zero fret and the neck joint. To consider both is important in acoustic guitar making. D'Aquisto, and others, knew that they had to fit the neck to the body in a firm way, to get the "solid, ringing out" note/tone. On a Lang neck with its relatively defined resonance range, the coupling with the body will generally be stronger and more equal, no matter if you're fretting the first or the 12th fret. There are less interferences, which results in a more clear, brillant, or less hoarse, overall tone and less dead spots with consequentially changing volume issues. In short: a more balanced tone throughout the tonal registers.
Everyone can hear and feel this. Sometimes, dead spots can be heard in an unfavorable way, when the guitar is amplified (clean). Not all electric hollow-body guitar issues are a result of unbalanced string sets, string clearance, magnetic pickup properties, etc..
As a technician and engineer, HR summarized all this much more laconically, shorter and more clear (though, it seems some interested folks are still having a hard time):
- "A low neck taper creates a narrow frequency band with high vibration amplitude."
- "A neck frequency matched to the body frequency prevents interference (dead spots)."
The demonstration in practice for guitar players is easy for HR. All Langs have got that quintessential clear and well-balanced tone. If a Lang guitar - after a fine set-up - doesn't seem to have it, or has a slightly muffled or throaty tone (sometimes caused by overspraying etc., in the past), you have to identify the problem and overcome it. It can be done.
In the past, some classically oriented luthiers, who knew about the quality of Lang guitars, modified one or the other Lang by replacing the archtop-sized neck with an own, usually wider one, often in combination with a plain fretboard. Edgar Monch, a highly influential guitar maker, was just one of them. These guitars don't sound any more like a typical Lang.
HR had removed such a neck on a otherwise great large-body Lang, replacing it - the altered, sadly wide neck joint invited to do so - with a Gibson-dimensioned neck. The guitar is set-up exactly the same way as his other Langs ... but, boy, guitar players often can't believe it due to these tone differences!
Well, that wide neck taper may be one thing, but, I guess, there is another thing that the neck replacing person just forgot to do: coupling that neck to the body in a way like Lang used to.Last edited by Ol' Fret; 12-28-2022 at 06:03 PM.
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12-21-2022 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by gitman
I've played a dozen or so Langs quite a bit, and own three. I'll post some neck dimensions of interest for comparative purposes, in metric and imperial measurements, for the Langs as well as for some other archtop guitars.
Lots more to come on this fascinating topic...
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Quietly, but with an almost uncanny acuteness of mind, HR is working on the further development of his report on Artur Lang's life work. The latest update was released on March 30, 2023.
I find the new list of abbreviations used in the report impressive, not only for German-speaking Lang enthusiasts, which alone gives a good indication on the verve with which Artur Lang developed, built and refined his guitar models:
grafik.png (660×1011) (schlaggitarren.de)
For all fans of Roger guitars there is also an update (No. 4 or 5?) from HR, again with a wealth of news that is almost lost in the amount of material collected:
Roger Schlaggitarren – Herbert Rittinger
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Hello,
It's my first post here so I want to say hi to everyone.
I've just bought this beauty! Need some love and care to make it fully playable but the price was good?
Can anybody help me identify this one? Model, year, anything? Also I will definitely get rid of that bigsby. Is there a chance to get original tailpiece and tunning peg? Floating bridge might be non original too?
Anyway I will appreciate any help!
Cheers!
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Hi Milosz,
Your name suggests you're in Hungary - or just from there?
Originally Posted by Milosz
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Originally Posted by Milosz
Welcome, Milosz, and congrats for this Lang guitar!
There's only one man on this planet whom I'd recognize to be a Lang expert. HR got his first Lang from the master in 1964, and spent considerable time from 2000 until this day to play, compare, study, repair and overhaul the guitars made by Lang. You can take his studies, repairing and overhauling literally. Fortunately for all Lang guitar owners, HR published an incredible and most precise work on Lang; some obscurities or even minor errors might still be included, but get increasingly eradicated - meanwhile, there is no longer much room for such errors.
HR still gets many inquiries about Lang instruments. I know he answers most of them patiently and in a friendly way, but he is wondering himself, if these folks have delved into his work which provides (almost) all of the answers. The Lang website is in German, though this is fully negligible when using a translator like Google or Deepl. There is also a lot of detailed photos and exact data tables, comprising even most of the more unusual work of that custom maker.
So, let's classify your Lang on the fly by means of that website:
1. Measure the body width (done across the back - it doesn't include the few "extra" millimeters caused by that pronounced recurve); it should sport around 440 to 444 millimeters. That's quite big, isn't it? It's a big body model! In addition it features a Venetian cutaway and long f-soundholes. Bingo, that must be a so-called Super De Luxe, in short a SDL model (KAPITEL 02 MODELLE / SPEZIFIKATIONEN – Artur Lang Gitarren (schlaggitarren.de) , scroll down to the SDL model, look at the fotos, study the corresponding data table.
2. The build year; was quite hard to narrow down until HR's studies.
There are many minor hints, though these are hard to spot for the uninitiated. Some instruments could have had repairs, replaced hardware, and so on.
The most easy way is to be guided by the beautifully engraved metall plates on the headstocks. Contrary to the tailpieces they get hardly ever replaced. The hand-engraved motifs, made by three different engravers over the years, more often than not show individual signs, but can be divided into characteristic different groups. What do you see on your headstock? The famous round Lang sun and flowers, that's all I can see. Lang loved the sun, sun beams, smaller and bigger flowers (earth loves in flowers, doesn't it?), clouds, ancient ornamental lines - he was also an esthete because he had experienced very bad times in Siberian war captivity.
So, sun and flowers, in German that's "Motiv Sonne - floral": scroll down to "Motive Metallplatte graviert" in the KAPITEL 04 KOMPONENTEN UND IHRE SPEZIFIKATIONEN – Artur Lang Gitarren (schlaggitarren.de) . Have a look at the fotos (naturally, there are much more fotos than the few examples shown on the website). Which compares the best to yours? What do you think - remember these engravings do all differ in some points because they were made freehand by artists. Anyway, have a look at the table below the fotos: the Motiv Sonne - Floral was used on the models HLM1 / SUP / SDL between "Anfang 60 bis Mitte 60". So your guitar was made between 1960 and 1965. It's not possible to date your Lang more precise. It wouldn't matter any way; it's the best period for big-body Langs.
Now to the tuners: go again to chapter 04 above and scroll to "Mechaniken" (tuners), watch the fotos and find type 10 ("Einzelmechanik, Premium, gekapselt"). These are Van Gent tuners made in the Netherlands; they were used on SDL models to customer specification only. You might be able to find one single vintage tuner of that type somewhere on the web.
The bridge is still available: it's a Höfner or Hofner-style No. 105 E(bony) - IIRC, you have to check that number. Made by the German Teller Company. It could be now that Teller is only making them for Höfner replacement parts. Until last years or so, they offered two 105 E models which looked differently on pics. The Höfner one was distinctly more expensive, otherwise they were exactly the same. My dear Höfner friends - this won't end well for you ...
I'd immediately replace that Bigsby by ... yes, by what? Today it would be easier to win a lottery than find an original Lang V-Tailpiece with engraving by ABM. HR has maschined a couple of finest pieces for himself out of pure nickel-silver; an incredibly crazy work of 4 or more full days, would certainly correspond to €1000,- per piece - I wouldn't even ask him to get one.
Just take an old "Escutcheon" or heavy lyre style one, they can be found. Check for the tailpieces on the chapter above.
What else? Take care for this old noble lady by the best German archtop guitar maker - it will need some meticulous TLC, and it's the Crème de la Crème! Personally, I would never swap a great original SDL against any other brand, new or vintage, including the big-named D'Angelico and D'Aquisto models.
PS: it seems that the fretboard / neck on your guitar has a tapering (widening from the zero fret to the bridge end of fretboard) found only on some very late electric Langs, though it could well be just the distortion by the foto lens or the perspective. What are the data of the zero fret width and at the end of the fretboard?
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Milosz,
today HR informed me that you already received some information about the guitar from him!
I guess there isn't much more to say about this then - just one last hint: this SDL was more likely made at the beginning of the 1960s.
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Thank you for your comprehensive answer, Ol' Fret! That's a lot of information!
Speaking of fretboard width , my Lang has 43mm at the zero fret and around 57mm at the last fret. It's strange isn't it? ?
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Originally Posted by Milosz
That difference of 14mm is quite unusual for Lang, definitely the original customer's specification - and the reason why I pointed to this area above!
>> Ein Markenzeichen der Lang-Hälse ist die geringe Konizität über die gesamte Länge des Griffbretts. Der Breitenunterschied vom Sattel bis zum Griffbrettende schwankt zwischen 2 und 12mm, wobei die frühen Modelle die geringsten Maßunterschiede aufweisen. Die größte Konizität mit 11-12mm wurde an ÖKO-und SDL-Modellen nach 1970 gemessen. Die meisten Werte liegen zwischen 5 und 8mm.Zum Vergleich: Eine Gibson-L5 weist eine Konizität von ca.14mm über die gesamte Griffbrettlänge auf. <<
From: KAPITEL 04 KOMPONENTEN UND IHRE SPEZIFIKATIONEN – Artur Lang Gitarren (schlaggitarren.de)
>> Geringe Halskonizität erzeugt enges Frequenzband mit hoher Schwingungsamplitude <<
From: KAPITEL 11 SONSTIGES – Artur Lang Gitarren (schlaggitarren.de)
I briefly tried to extend HR's compact explanation in my post #101 above.
Some may think it's gibble gabble - well, they're free to "think" whatever they like- , but it's simple acoustic physics, well-known vibration theory and empirical knowledge of finer acoustic musical instrument making. There are no real "secrets" in instrument making, just knowledge, cognition and perception.
The truth is that some owners and players of early 1950's Lang models - much less on later guitars (Lang had always been a custom maker) - often complain about these guitar necks being painfully narrow for playing. That could be true, if you're accustomed to, for example, Gibson neck measures. The tone though of these early Langs is clear like a silver bell throughout the register, more than on any other rival guitars.
You could test it yourself: play your Lang guitar with your actual 14mm concity, and then put in a 8 or 10mm neck. You'll be amazed!
For all later service reason we prefer to convert - very carefully made! - glued necks into screwed-on ones on Langs, where a neck reset or other repair work around the neck foot or block had to be done anyway. If done right it's hard to spot the difference at all ... you see no screw, nothing.
Btw., the same is valid for other acoustic (carved) archtop guitars. The evidence is clear at hand and in your ears.
The best acoustic guitar makers would prefer a smaller angle of neck taper (conicity) than that, i. e., a delta difference of no more than ca.10mm (between 8 and 11mm, max. 12mm, depending also on the main resonances of the particular guitar body) between the nut or zero fret and the end of the fretboard.
So, if your zero fret measures 43mm, the neck width at the highest fret should not be more than ca. 53mm. If the zero fret measures 45mm (my personal Lang favorites), the highest fret could be ca. 55mm, and so on.
All that naturally get's less important on "acoustic" archtop guitars, where the pickup(s) produce(s) the lion's share of tone,i. e., on the majority of archtop guitar brands, especially those with set pickups; the more on mere electric guitars.
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A general warning for Lang lovers: scam with Lang guitars is increasingly severe now!
Some of the fraudsters are not just occasional crooks, but have a high criminal potential, acquired specific knowledge (also by asking specific questions of previous sellers) and are exceptionally tricky when it comes to payment methods.
The old saying <It's worth killing for a good Lang> may soon lose its humor...
The latest scam: https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/ # 2774234942 . The operators of this platform are now known for their weeks and months of slowness or even inaction when it comes to intervening even in justified cases of fraud.
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Originally Posted by Ol' Fret
It looks like that the new ownership of the platform was no improvement in terms of handling scamers.
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Originally Posted by Ol' Fret
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Originally Posted by RJVB
This website was previously owned by eBay and sold 1 or 2 years ago to the new owner from Sweden. Thats why the former adress "ebay-Kleinanzeigen" is still working and directing to the website.
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Originally Posted by bluenote61
Yes, exactly. Some wild and transnational stories, sad for the unsuspecting buyers who mostly lost their money despite criminal charges. Some fraudsters are even so bold as to set up extra accounts in the original names of previous actual owners. Beautiful digital worlds!
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A well-recorded example of an Artur Lang guitar, played acoustically.
It's just the "basic" model called Standard, yet it gives us the impression on the essence of Langs, the man's vision of how a fine archtop guitar should sound. The tone, clearness of sound and incredible balance of Langs are, IMHO, unequalled to this day.
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Not to be confounded by the Stringphonic "Lang" models
The recording above sounds great but just when I was reflecting how archtops often have something electric to their acoustic sound I noticed this one is plugged in. IMHO that's not a purely acoustic sound with some reverb and/or chorus added, I think the effect is actually the electric sound being mixed in.
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RJVB, you could be right that there is just a little (the right) amount of electricity involved - what I'd call THE (my) quintessential sound for jazz guitar: we hear evidently more of the acoustic guitar than of the magnetic pickup.
What the player wanted to demonstrate is that an archtop guitar which was primarily designed for hard strumming - like Lang's big models are - can sound sweet enough when played smooth. Just the right amount between being too closed/muffled, too bass-accented, or too open and ringy (flattop-like). I think the recording made that point. Go figure, Lang guitars are even longitudinally braced!
Stringphonic, yes - that's why I use flatwounds even on acoustic archtops - anyway a natural approach for a former violin player - at least, if the guitar shows intrinsic acoustic brilliancy itself. Langs are so resonant, picking up the smallest side tone, that it's a hard task to produce a proper and smooth home or studio recording. Go figure, the tops of these Langs are thick (a. 6.5mm), they also take the heaviest input better than most other brands!
That recording is not only a bit stringphonic, but there is also "sympathetic" vibration. Highly resonant archtops do react on the smallest input. Langs are made for a DeArmond single coil PU with control box - gone are the sympathetics! If you don't use a control box, you have to take care that the strings after the bridge can't ring so crazy. A conventional Kent Armstrong PU is hardly the best choice for a Lang, which will probably lead us again to the tenacious complaints about Lang's alleged narrow string spacing and neck width. Once again: many of the Lang models made after the mid 1950s feature really rugged and wide necks; all of mine measure between 44.0 and 45.5 mm at the zero fret. True, these necks differ from US-made necks because they show less taper / widening towards the bridge. The reason for this was explained in a post somewhere above. Being a supporter of the idea "You can have it, if you hear it", I don't care about exposing that any further.
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I'm not familiar with the adjective stringphonic, but (I checked ) I wrote the word with a capital S to refer to the Stringphonic brand, building relatively affordable acoustic archtops and manouche guitars in Japan.
Here's another-but-not-officially-in-the-same-league archtop supposedly built for (and usually used for) hard strumming, also parallel braced but this time purely acoustic and strung with brass round-wounds:
Despite the use of a pick I think I hear a lot of what I think you're saying above. Only the "internal reverb" you can get disappears here in the added effect.
I'm a former violinist too but it never occurred to me to put flatwounds on any guitar but then I played on bare gut except for the G string (which, I checked, is a polished silver+gold round wound on gut). I'm not using Pyramid's lightly hand-polised silk-and-steel strings on my archtop, they're quiet enough (and being made in Germany would be an appropriate choice for a Lang guitar )
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Thank you, RJVB, for explaining some of the terms that, because they occur in your universe of thought, can hardly be understood in context by an outsider like myself, at least, not without mental detours! I am simply mentally overwhelmed. In an attempt to better interpret the context, I like to use my mirror neurons, like many other mammals do, e.g. great apes. From the reaction to what I see reflected, I'm trying, often more or less desperately, to draw further conclusions.
While I appreciate your (or someone else's) implementations, I'm sorry I didn't fully understand the following connections you have unrolled:
1. The Stringphonic brand: What exactly do "relatively affordable acoustic archtops and manouche guitars" MIJ have to do with Lang guitars?
2. What do modern Loar guitars have to do with Langs? Do you equate them?
(Btw., Rob McKillop is, above all, a great human being, a fine guitarist, photographer, etc., probably sounding great on any musical instrument - I really wish him a complete recovery!)
3. The term "internal reverb" confuses me. I would be very surprised if a Lang player had to rely on some kind of gadget like a chorus effect. These large instruments are usually played with a "dry" sound and need nothing but a little amplification; at most - depending on the venue - a touch of reverb, which is almost inaudible.
4. Have you ever played a Lang guitar yourself? If so, which model exactly? Btw., with brass or phosphor bronze strings, IMHO, Langs could probably actually sound like cheap boxes.
5. In most violin schools, the violinists I know learn to keep as many fingers as possible on the strings, especially when changing positions - something that is diametrically opposed to playing the guitar with roundwounds because of the squeaking finger noise. This is also why, along with the use of a bow and the lack of frets, runs on a violin can sound more fluid, smooth and legato, which again is one reason, why I like to listen to a lot more horn than guitar players. Thankfully I'm not alone in this, from Charlie Christian to Peter Leitch.
6. You seem to like playing with nationalism quite a bit ("being made in Germany would be an appropriate choice for a Lang guitar"). Or in Hammertone's recent 'Glassl rehabilitation thread': "German engineering/handiwork never was what it used to be?"
Is this a pressing need? A post-traumatic stress disorder? A harmless quirk, or an expression of a deeper connection to certain brotherhoods?
FYI: Artur Lang had the German nationality (or should I say he was part of the fourth tribe of Bavarians - as Bavarian Prime Ministers used to put it). But Lang was originally a member of the Habsburg Imperial and Royal Monarchy, then a Czech for some years, and then forcibly Russified in Siberia.
Why can't people behave and act like cosmopolitans? This is not even the case in a style of music that is supposed to be international. Homo homini lupus? Ok, but that will always backfire - because counter-reactions are almost never planned for.
To put it clearly: If Germans deliver poor quality, this must be exposed. If Volkswagen believes it has to cheat on a large scale, then it must live with the consequences (for me: bye-bye!). If the French, Czechs, Italians, Americans or Asians tried the same thing: bye-bye! But that has nothing to do with nationalistic sentiments, which are usually accompanied by chauvinist and fascistic attitudes.
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Volkswagen? yeah, they did a bit of cheating, but I do love their Italian instagram account.
@volkswagenitalia
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Oh boy, I see I stepped on a german toe, though not deliberately like that time an ICE neighbour thought it a good idea to take of his shoes and use my shoulder as a pillow. Should I say sorry 'bout that?
Don't worry, I'm not a nationalist, definitely not a cosmopolitan either (yuck), just a nothing. Probably not even a human. And I'll blame your grandmother neurone for misfiringly insinuating I'm a fascist and for penance I'll accept an essay on mirror neurones with up-to-date views on the matter (I'm a little out of touch with that part of my field).
Random fun historical tidbit
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Originally Posted by RJVB
So, you're no nationalist, no cosmopolitan, just a nothing, probably not even a human?
That scares me a bit, but I see that you're obviously having huge problems at the moment. Come on, there are people who can help you!
Don't worry about my German toe, or whatever nationalities' bastard toe ... (looking down) it's probably made of steel.
This is still (or should be) a thread about Artur Lang - or has the JGF shockingly been taken over by WhatsApp in the meantime?
I really wish to read a factual post from you about the work of Artur Lang in due course.
You don't know nothing about Lang's work? Don't worry again, I was at that point too: now, a few decades later, after asking countless questions and patiently listening to what the more experienced people had to say and demonstrate, after intensive study of the subject myself, I know at most a little bit more than I did at the beginning. I can certainly understand that folks don't want to take such a course of action (blood, sweat and tears - and fun!), but there is no other way than ad astra per aspera.
Btw., I can't help with comparing Stringphonic guitars to Langs (someone else?) - if that was your intention -, but I can let you know that my Loar LH-600, as a carved guitar, doesn't quite measure up to a Lang. A few little things seem to be missing.
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What a wonderful source of information this thread has been regarding Artur Lang & the instruments he created.
An individual has contacted me about the Artur Lang Prämus below. I’ve not seen one of these with a bridge pickup or tremolo tailpiece. Any opinions on the originality of these items or how they may likely affect the instrument would be appreciated in my decision to acquire it. Thanks, Josh.
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Originally Posted by Joshk
Opinions on the originality of that pickup installation? Bwahahahahaha!!!
Well, the trem is easy enough to ignore or replace with another ABM tailpiece of the non-trem variety.
Sigh, what a tragic desecration of a fine instrument. Well, it can be restored, I suppose...
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Ok, one vote for sacrilege.
Per Ol’ fret’s comment regarding Lang not using x bracing, I was wondering if there was the slightest chance this could have been an idea acceptable to the creator. That thought has been dispelled.
When a gaping hole is introduced to a finely carved & tuned instrument, is there really any hope of resurrection?
The history of flatwound guitar strings
Today, 08:14 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos