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  1. #126

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    I had no idea UPS demanded the new Judge. UPS has a set of balls on them, huh.. Wow.

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  3. #127

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    Best of luck, Vinny. I hope sanity prevails. Lots of people pulling for you!

  4. #128

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    I report, you decide. Vince Margol is my source on that re: Heritage and shipping insurance.

    In a related story, Heritage has been ghost building for D'Angelico again in very small numbers. Several of these were returned to Heritage, one with a broken headstock and one with a broken neck pocket. The way the damage looked suggested it was sabotage, so I'm told (not by Vince).

    That opened a surprising conversation. It appears that some who receive guitars have buyer's remorse and break them upon receipt in order to return them. Sometimes it's obvious, others it is questionable. Apparently this is not a new problem for guitar builders.

    The guy I talked to had to reneck the two D'Angelicos, which was heartbreaking. These are hand built and labor intensive.

    It's a sick world.


    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven

    If heritage ship guitars and cant claim the insurance then they are absolute fools or dont care about money, one of the two.

  5. #129

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    Vinny, you've taken it farther than most, for sure. I admire you for that. And I know how you feel. At a certain point it is not about money. It's principle. And when you get some people pissed, they become relentless.

    If I were your lawyer, and I'm not one bit qualified, I'd suggest that you discuss a settlement with "the good cop" at UPS, if you know one. They know you're serious and should be ready to get rid of this matter.

    But I'd love for you to prevail in court.

  6. #130
    Marty no "good cop" to be found. Believe me I tried. It has now gone far beyond any monetary compensation for me now. I just cannot let a company like this get away with blatant criminal behavior stepping on the little guy like crushing a unwanted bug on your kitchen floor. Plain and simple I am 100% in the right on this matter and I must at least give it my best fight to try and get justice to prevail. What would happen if your parked car got smashed by someone driving by and your insurance company said we are not paying because you shouldn't have parked your car. Ludicrous.

  7. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    Here's what I do (again) which should make it almost impossible for the shipping company to get out of paying.

    When I pack a guitar, I take a video of the guitar in its condition whilst I pack it. I then whilst filming distinctly use the buyers name as this dates the video conclusively (no phone software tampering can be used to wiggle).

    So now you have the condition it was sent in a date time the video was taken because you used the buyers name. They can see the whole packing process on film.
    but you've a gap in your evidence trail.

    I appreciate the video effort in an attempt to document your guitars actual condition prying to packaging. Unfortunately for you, the shipper merely has to claim your guitar was damaged by you after you packed it and before it was delivered to the shipper...and the shipper can, and likely will, argue that while they have no proof of their claim that you damaged your guitar prior to it being delivered, but nor do you have proof your guitar was damaged while in transit with the shipper. And the shipper knows there is no such evidentiary trail in court that proves a shippee's, my word, case.

    We're all up against the 8 ball with shipping, and shippers, and the only way to truly protect oneself is to pay for independent insurance by common insurers of guitars, or to contact your agent for your homeowners policy and cover it on that end...I think Patrick mentioned. he has done this several times with actual success.

  8. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    Vinny, you've taken it farther than most, for sure. I admire you for that. And I know how you feel. At a certain point it is not about money. It's principle. And when you get some people pissed, they become relentless.

    If I were your lawyer, and I'm not one bit qualified, I'd suggest that you discuss a settlement with "the good cop" at UPS, if you know one. They know you're serious and should be ready to get rid of this matter.

    But I'd love for you to prevail in court.
    At some point, UPS is going to weigh the cost of this litigation against a settlement offer. Vinny needs to keep hammering them. And, just like the UPS guy told vinny, that he'll never get a dime . . . vinny needs to make it clear that he ain't goin' away any time soon and he ain't goin' away empty handed. Make it clear that after a final decision is made by whom ever is mediating this now, if it's not to his liking . . . he's fully prepared to take it to the next level. Then, make it clear that he'll be all over social media sharing how unfairly he was treated. Risk management at UPS will dictate any further actions. Sooner or later they'll tell the UPS person in charge to just give the guy his due so he'll go away.

  9. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
    Marty no "good cop" to be found. Believe me I tried. It has now gone far beyond any monetary compensation for me now. I just cannot let a company like this get away with blatant criminal behavior stepping on the little guy like crushing a unwanted bug on your kitchen floor. Plain and simple I am 100% in the right on this matter and I must at least give it my best fight to try and get justice to prevail. What would happen if your parked car got smashed by someone driving by and your insurance company said we are not paying because you shouldn't have parked your car. Ludicrous.
    I wish it were a "crime" to pull this Goliath versus David stunt, but companies do this because they know it's not "criminal behavor" they're doing and often times the consequences for them is nil in civil court litigation. Just the same, I applaud you Vinny for giving it your best shot and being heard in open court.

  10. #134

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    I find it interesting that UPS decided to vigorously defend this small potatoes case. I would have to think that attorneys fees and court costs will total more than the original claim amount. It leads me to think that they may be trying to defend this case in order to protect precendence against larger cases. We have all seen the videos of UPS drivers chucking packages over fences and I'm sure their legal teams are panicking.

    This is such a cut and dry case of negligence. Common sense would lead me to think that UPS would want to try to reach a settlement which would include a confidentiality agreement. Instead, they are going to lose the case and will lose exponentially more revenue due to the damage done on social media. Plus, what kind of moron would try to intimidate a guy named Vinny?

  11. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    I report, you decide. Vince Margol is my source on that re: Heritage and shipping insurance.

    In a related story, Heritage has been ghost building for D'Angelico again in very small numbers. Several of these were returned to Heritage, one with a broken headstock and one with a broken neck pocket. The way the damage looked suggested it was sabotage, so I'm told (not by Vince).

    That opened a surprising conversation. It appears that some who receive guitars have buyer's remorse and break them upon receipt in order to return them. Sometimes it's obvious, others it is questionable. Apparently this is not a new problem for guitar builders.

    The guy I talked to had to reneck the two D'Angelicos, which was heartbreaking. These are hand built and labor intensive.

    It's a sick world.

    I've been a little concerned about this myself although it is high paranoia for sure. Lets not forget your story is anecdotal and we know where that can get us.

    Thats why whenever pos, I get he buyer to arrange shipping. I explained this to a guy recebly who bought my AR305, I said to him

    "You have to arrange postage"

    Buyer'

    "Why

    Me'

    "Because it encourages good behaviour on the buyers part. Do you get what i mean?

    Buyer'

    "No"

    Me'

    "oh, well it stops you from intentionally damaging the guitar (not that you would want to of course) as the insurance claim will be on you".

    Buyer,

    "Oh but hmmm"

    "Me"

    Ok I'll do it this time :-(

    lol

  12. #136
    All the wonderful support I have received from all of you has completely outweighed this UPS nightmare. I feel very blessed and thank you all from the bottom of my heart. I feel now that this is our fight and I am going into the ring for all of us. United we stand and UPS will fall.

  13. #137

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    Martygrass and Archtopheaven
    i assure you in this case, the buyer didn't break the guitar.
    Joe D

  14. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
    Joe, just be clear the judge didn't punt. He wanted us to come to some sort of a meet in the middle agreement which UPS refused to do. I would have agreed to that. The judge was being very fair and professional and knew the law very well. It was then that UPS demanded a new judge for our case and refused to discuss our case with this judge. So back we go again on the 24th with a new judge. I don't know how many times UPS can demand a different judge but I would suspect if they do it again it will anger the new judge and the court greatly.
    Interesting feature on being able to 'demand' a new judge. Any of the US lawyers know what the conditions for such application would be? This feature appears odd from a civil procedure perspective, unless the judge's independence is compromised.

  15. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
    Joe, just be clear the judge didn't punt. He wanted us to come to some sort of a meet in the middle agreement which UPS refused to do. I would have agreed to that. The judge was being very fair and professional and knew the law very well. It was then that UPS demanded a new judge for our case and refused to discuss our case with this judge. So back we go again on the 24th with a new judge. I don't know how many times UPS can demand a different judge but I would suspect if they do it again it will anger the new judge and the court greatly.
    Well, make it clear that they will be paying court costs and all of your legal expenses as part of the settlement for negligence and wanton damage of property entrusted to them as a common carrier. They, of course, are fighting establishment of precedent.

  16. #140

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    I am assuming that on Vinny's first appearance, he and the UPS representative appeared before a pro tem judge (this is not an actual judge, but a local attorney who volunteers his time to hear these cases (attorneys do this to gain judicial experience, hoping to one day become judges). Both sides have to agree to let the pro-tem judge hear the case if no settlement is reached. Either can ask to have the case heard by a real judge (I assume that the UPS rep wants a real judge and that is why the matter was continued, along with being the usual delay tactic, which sometimes frustrates a plaintiff enough to give up).

    If Vinny Wins in Small Claims Court, UPS can appeal. If Vinny loses, the case is over. Plaintiffs have no right to appeal Small Claims cases.

    No Attorneys are involved in a small claims matter, nor are attorney fees awarded to the prevailing party.

    The next appearance should end this, unless Vinny wins and UPS appeals.

    Then it will take a bit longer for Vinny to win, but win he shall, for justice is on his side.

    I'm still betting that this case settles on the next appearance date.

    Vinny, this is better than watching Perry Mason. We are all waiting on pins and needles....

  17. #141

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    I wish that the styrofoam packaging that Yunzhi and Mr. Wu guitars are shipped in was readily available here. Addresses some, not all, of the potential for damage.

    Really hope this plays out on the side of justice Vinny. We're all rooting for you.


  18. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
    All the wonderful support I have received from all of you has completely outweighed this UPS nightmare. I feel very blessed and thank you all from the bottom of my heart. I feel now that this is our fight and I am going into the ring for all of us. United we stand and UPS will fall.
    Would it help for the forum to assist?

    I mean as in a petition or charitable donations for legal aid?

    I'm not sure how the legal system works in the USA but over here in the UK there have been cut backs in legal aid for people not able to afford legal help.

    Well in any case keep on mate and more power to your elbow.

  19. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    but you've a gap in your evidence trail.

    I appreciate the video effort in an attempt to document your guitars actual condition prying to packaging. Unfortunately for you, the shipper merely has to claim your guitar was damaged by you after you packed it and before it was delivered to the shipper...and the shipper can, and likely will, argue that while they have no proof of their claim that you damaged your guitar prior to it being delivered, but nor do you have proof your guitar was damaged while in transit with the shipper. And the shipper knows there is no such evidentiary trail in court that proves a shippee's, my word, case.

    We're all up against the 8 ball with shipping, and shippers, and the only way to truly protect oneself is to pay for independent insurance by common insurers of guitars, or to contact your agent for your homeowners policy and cover it on that end...I think Patrick mentioned. he has done this several times with actual success.

    I think there gets to a point where you have so much evidence, that the sheer weight of it, makes your case one they wouldn't waist their time fighting.

    Thats the point.

    What motive would you have for breakage the guitar once packed? How would you break the guitar if all it has to do is go from the place you packed it, to the door for collection?

  20. #144
    Martygrass and Archtopheaven
    i assure you in this case, the buyer didn't break the guitar.
    Joe D
    Joe don't even go there bro !!!! Everyone here "KNOWS" you are a stand up guy and I know how much you wanted to have that Tal. You are a good man Mr.D and everyone knows it.

  21. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
    Martygrass and Archtopheaven
    i assure you in this case, the buyer didn't break the guitar.
    Joe D
    Joe don't even go there bro !!!! Everyone here "KNOWS" you are a stand up guy and I know how much you wanted to have that Tal. You are a good man Mr.D and everyone knows it.
    Vinny, I appreciate you saying that. I wasn't sure why it was brought up, not once but twice. I think Marty was bringing up a hypothetical situation. Archie might not have known that I was the buyer.

    In any case, What your post has done is it has made all of us aware that this can and will happen if we don't take precautions. We can't pack guitars and ship them the same exact way Gibson does. We have to build a cocoon around them that can withstand drops that create whiplash and leave no obvious signs of damage on the outer carton. We need to tell our buyers that 5 days on a truck will create 5 times the likelihood of damage that one day on an airplane will. We've learned that UPS takes your money for insurance - with no intension of giving you any insurance what-so-ever.

    You've done a lot for a lot of good for people with this post Vinny. Can't thank you enough brother.

    Joe D.

  22. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
    Martygrass and Archtopheaven
    i assure you in this case, the buyer didn't break the guitar.
    Joe D
    Oh I never made any assumption that was the case, in this regard.

    I thought we were taking about the pros and cons of shipping. nothing to do with this :-)

  23. #147

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    Thanks Archie.


    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    Oh I never made any assumption that was the case, in this regard.

    I thought we were taking about the pros and cons of shipping. nothing to do with this :-)

  24. #148

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    I am very surprised to read this thread.

    Over the past dozen years or so I have purchased several guitars via the Internet. All were delivered in pristine condition by UPS. Never had a problem of any kind.

    Lucky, I guess.

  25. #149

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    I'm glad for you. I can attest that there are not many worse feelings then the feeling that comes over you when you open a case, peel back all the careful wrappings and lift one the most beautiful guitars ever - and you see it's head is broken at the neck. If you love guitars, the feeling never quite goes away.

  26. #150

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    Dear UPS:

    We are all watching how you handle this.

    Love,

    The Internet

    P.S.
    We are on Vinny's side.
    Last edited by Flat; 07-18-2015 at 06:31 PM.