The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    How can I get a jazz guitar sound our of my gear?

    I want to sound like George Benson / Kenny Burrell / Ronny Jordan (tonewise).

    I use an Ibanez AF75 w/ semi-flatwound strings (.11) staight to the amp.

    Do i need to use flatwounds?
    Do i need to use effect pedal, an equalizer or something?
    I play in different bars w/ various amps so how can i dial-in the same tone settings every night?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Fender Deluxe Reverb, or similar 15 -25 watt tube amplifier and a decent guitar will get you through any "bar" situation. No need for "various amps", stick with one amplifier and one guitar and learn how to control them effectively for different environments. Why reinvent the wheel every night with different equipment? Find a compact amplifier that you can carry in one hand, guitar in the other -

    As far as sounding like the guys that you mentioned, they normally play guitars that cost (in todays dollars) around $10k ... and perhaps another $2k in an amplifier. Effects not necessary for classical jazz - they didn't exist when Burrel and Benson did their best work. (Forget advertising gimmicks that may show your favorite artist playing some Chinese knock-off.)

    (Repeating) These guys carried a guitar in one hand and a Fender Deluxe Reverb (or similar) in the other hand. Any artist of this caliber could make your Ibanez sing but the best motivation for a jazz musician on the upward curve of the learning plateau is a decent guitar - look at all of the old album covers and see what the masters were playing.

    The newer models still sound just as good. Might be a little costly for a beginner BUT if you are playing "bars" frequently - as you suggest - then your income must be tax declared AND your equipment is tax deductible. That's pretty much a 30% discount on a good guitar in addition to what you can negotiate from the dealer. For Gibsons, I automatically assume that the markup is at least 20% too high ...

    If you find a new ES-175 priced at $2,500 (as an example), I would expect to pay no more than $2,000. No professional expects to pay the marked price.

    Simple advice -
    Randy C

    PS: forgot to add that the negotiated purchase price of $2,000 will be further depreciated (by tax deduction) so that your eventual investment for the $2,500 guitar will be less than $1,500. Sorry - got distracted and lost my thought regarding tax. It's unlikely that your bar earnings will contibute much to your taxable income so this is universally in the favor of young guitarists playing casual gigs. You can take this write-off for several years - even if you claim a loss on income. Spend some time on the IRS site or ask a knowledgeable person about tax law. MANY Americans lose a LOT of money every year from ignorance of their allowable deductions ..

    Cheap guitars will not be able to be deducted from your taxable income - there is a lower limit for the "capital equipment" deduction. Used to be around $500 but it's probably at least double that amount these days.
    Last edited by Dirk; 06-12-2020 at 07:14 AM.

  4. #3

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    thanks randy very helpful! im in a tight budget right now so im planning to stick with my AF75. what i mean is when i play in different bars, im forced to play with an amp the bar has to offer (be it a vox or fender and sometimes they even has marshall amps). is there a particular eq setting for this? i mean like treble, mid and bass setting in the amp?

    by the way, i also have a Fender Bullet Reverb 15 to 38 watts max. i really love the sound of it but that's too small (i guess) and i realy dont want to carry an amp w/ me in gigs. so i'll use what in the bar. is there an effect pedal to copy that sound of the fender bullet reverb?

    "Forget advertising gimmicks that may show your favorite artist playing some Chinese knock-off"
    - very helpful advice. tnx!

  5. #4

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    Boost the mids, cut a little highs, bass to taste.

    I'd only play what the bar had if I knew what it was ahead of time.

    Where are you playing jazz in bars, btw? I may have to move.

    It's never a bad idea to actually have an amp you like and bring it. Polytones will give you a great clean tone and can be found used for $300 or so.

    I've gotten into the habit of taking a zt lunchbox everywhere with me now, actually. It's not the be all end all of amps, but it's uber portable, and at least I know I'll sound consistent wherever I go.

  6. #5

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    Yes, the whole "tone" thing is about limitations of instrument, pickup, strings, amplifier and loudspeaker products of the day. With current technology, still we try to emulate 1948.

    So how have we done in the past sixty years?

    Pickup technology has been slightly enhanced due to advanced magnetic compositions (market-speak notwithstanding). Loudspeaker technology - ditto, but not by much - JBL is still the standard (my opinions about manufacturers that refuse to measure and produce specifications of their products are known here). Amplifiers? Nope - the requirement of a narrow frequency range - about 80 to 4000 Hz - didn't need improvement. The performance was always easy to obtain, even in 1935.

    So what has improved? Maybe marketing and advertising.

    G'night all -
    Randy C

  7. #6

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    My local shop just started stocking Peerless (2 guitars) and I finally got to try the Manhattan and Monarch yesterday through a twin reverb. I'm a beginner jazz guitarist but have played guitar well for decades. With the right amps, I can get a BB King sound from my ES-335, a SRV sound with a strat etc. I've been looking for an archtop which gives a sound in the woody, sweet and dark range, ala Barney Kessel, Grant Green, Kenny Burrell - anything like that. The sound that Otten gets on his Monarch is wonderful, although I don't know what amp he uses (think he actually records direct).

    To the point... I liked both the Peerless guitars as guitars, playability, quality for the price etc. But I was disappointed by the amped sound. I tried a couple of easy chord melodies, some jazz blues, a few runs etc. The store guy is a great guitarist, also not jazz, but he played some similar music and got the same sound - nothing like Ottner. Nice, but sort of acoustic, too bright, not jazz.

    What's going on here? Is it the recording techniques used on vids? Is it the amp (we tried many, many settings, and also ran through a Blues Jr)? Is it the floating pup that I was using? I realise that it could be all of those PLUS my playing :-) But I really thought that the basic jazz sound as I've described could be found with the right guitar and amp, even if the notes were played slooooowly, and the chords were three or four note voicings not bar chords...

  8. #7

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    Couple of things.
    This is from Matts website and explains his input chain.

    Videos done in my home studio involve no amp at all, I just plug into my PC (I'm currently using a lexicon USB audio interface), running Cubase, adding a very mild reverb (plugin) to remove the dryness and a very mild compression with slow attack. The amp I use for gigs is usually a Sessionette 75; it has a good clean sound, although a bit sharp, so I cut back the treble a bit. As for strings, for hollowbody guitars I use .012 or .013 flatwounds, but also regular, various brands. For semi-hollow I use regular strings, .011 sometimes also .012. The picks I use are a medium heavy, not too heavy but definitely not too light.


    Also note that Matt picks right above the last fret or thereabouts. This is part of the tone as well.
    I think he also has a very light touch.
    Just thought of another thing..............Monarchs ship with D'Addario Chrome Lights. They are reasonably "bright" for a flat wound style string. Perhaps you were hearing that as well.
    Last edited by Philco; 10-13-2011 at 06:57 AM.

  9. #8

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    The Twin Reverb stock its a terrible jazz amp IMO. And its also a "sweet spot" amp (and tends to sound much better cranked). Try it with other amp!

  10. #9

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    Philco -thanks for that information on Matt. Would the strings make that much of a difference in a simple trial? Interesting though. I don't often use a pick, but I played fingerstyle with and varying the use of nails.

    Jorge - My local shop (not bad but still in the middle of nowhere in the French countryside) doesn't have a great selection of amps, but I did try the Blues Jr. He had a ZT Club and lunchbox in the shop but wouldn't even let me try them as he said they were absolutely awful :-) I know him well enough. He agreed that everyone on the web raves about the ZTs but he was just thankful that after two months someone had bought the ZT Club and that it was boxed ready to be picked up (otherwise he'd have let me try it).

  11. #10

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    Hmmm the ZT doesn't sound very good on youtube (never tried one) but the Blues Jr can sound nice at low volumes... well Otten is a great player, hard to get his sound.. If you like the guitar you can always swap the pickup, easy thing to do! He only has Fender and ZT?

  12. #11

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    If I was looking for a guitar with that classic 50's sound I'd start by looking at an ES-175 or an ES-125 - not always easy to find in Europe I know - mahogany neck, rosewood board, rosewood bridge, laminated top, built-in pickup. To my mind - and to generalise - a maple neck, ebony board and bridge, solid top and a floater will all contribute to a brighter sound.

  13. #12

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    "Nice, but sort of acoustic, too bright, not jazz."

    We can put aside the idea that jazz is primarily an acoustic music, and jazz guitarists played unplugged at its genesis, for the moment!

    Sounds like you're playing an acoustic archtop to me. These are acoustic, bright guitars. They require a different touch and finesse than a Gibson ES-175 or even an L-5CES. Personally I think that flatwounds sound like crap on guitars with floating pickups. Try regular nickel wound strings in 12-54 or 11-52 gauge and see what you think then.

    A real acoustic archtop is optimized with bronze strings, but if you're playing it plugged in all the time, nickel wounds are a fine compromise that sound smooth and responsive through a magnetic pickup and an amplifier.

    At the end of the day, though, technique (pick attack in particular) might be the primary factor in your state of cognitive dissonance!

  14. #13

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    Bill - I started out looking for an ES-175! Yes, somewhat difficult to find and like all Gibsons, highly variable in their quality and sound. That's why I thought of the Heritage models, though they're equally as hard to find here. But I think you are right with the laminated top, built in pup though. I've always played high-end, solid wood guitars (except the ES-335) and so that's a bit hard for me to get my arms around. But it might be exactly why I was dissappointed. The last time I played a 175 was a couple of decades ago and I've been unable to find one locally to try out now. I might just have to wait a while longer. I'd thought also of the Peerless Cremona with laminated back and sides, but the top is still carved maple.

    RP - I'd agree with you except that I was really disappointed with this Monarch's acoustic capabilities contrary to everything I've read. It had decent projection but the tone was quite empty, not at all what I'd expected. On the other hand, it certainly still affected the amplified tone. I'll bear in mind what you say about strings once I actually acquire a guitar - it'll take a bit of time to find what works - and as everything in France, that's not a cheap exercise where you basic set of strings which go for $3-4 in the States sell here for $10-12!

    When you talk about pick attack, could you please elaborate? I rarely use picks now but I wouldn't mind trying again and can always accept advice!

  15. #14

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    The sound you described by naming some players doesn't depend on any particular type of pickup. Single coil, "full sized" humbucker, "mini" humbucker, suspended, top mounted...

    Every player has their own preference in strings and most adapt to whatever strings to get the sound they want...but as a starting point, I'd suggest trying strings that are capable of working the top of an archtop and that are similar to the strings available back when the "jazz sound" was becoming the "jazz sound." Nickle round wound sets, with a wound third string, running .012" to .056" E-to-E are representative of the type. Yes, it takes a day or two to play the squeaks out of a new set, but you already know that. That's only a starting point, and you might want to experiment with other gauges -- including heavier -- and maybe with flats...later on. These WILL give a jazz sound and are a good starting point.

    In most cases, if the guitar has the strings that the factory put on, you cannot expect it to sound like anything but crap.

    Secondly, I agree with another poster upthread that a Twin is a bit tough to get a good sound from at less than deafening levels. A Blues Jr. ought to work reasonably well though, so I doubt the amp is the main problem.

    Third, most people I've met who come from a blues or rock background are accustomed to picking much closer to the bridge than is usual for a good jazz sound and will sometimes let their right hand drift back to their "normal" position without realizing it. Your jazz "sweet spot" will be near the pickup, and may even be over the end of the fingerboard. A lot of this depends on the individual guitar.

    It is never going to sound quite the same when you're playing an archtop electric as it does when you listen to some one else play it (assuming the setup and settings are reasonably appropriate). You're holding the guitar as you play and you are hearing the guitar and the amp. As a listener, you really only hear the amp.

    Beware of youtube and, for that matter, any recordings. The sound coming out of your computer or stereo speakers is not necessarily a good reproduction of the ambient sound that was recorded.

    Anyhow, bottom line...start with strings and picking position. That's my advice.

  16. #15

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    I've been getting some nice sounds out of my Roland Cube 80X on the JC Clean channel. I play a Samick JZ4 (basically a L5 knockoff). I've also got a Blues Jr and while it has a good sound, it's too wimpy (15W) to gig anything more than a small club or restaurant with. And, I have a ZT Lunchbox, which is surprisingly LOUD for its size, and sounds pretty damned good with its little 6" speaker. But, I use that strictly for either practice, or rehearsals with small combos - when it's gig time I don'tmind lugging around a bigger amp, because I like the extra bottom end you get out of a 10" or 12" speaker.

    I personally think most of a player's tone is in their hands and their own personal style. I saw Jonathan Kreisberg a couple of weeks ago...he plays a Gibson ES175 through a Fender Princeton Reverb, a classic setyup, but he's also got a pedal board that I checked out - he's got a Voodoo Labs Sparkle Drive, some delay/reverb boxes, and a volume/expression pedal, but I'm convinced that he would sound like Kreisburg even if he were playing through my setup. I understand the desire to change gear to make your sound more like Kenny, or Wes, or whatever, but at some point you just have to go with what you got and make your tone your own.

  17. #16
    I play a Gibson Barney Kessel through my trusty old Polytone Mini Brute and get a tone similar to Matt Otten Used Daddario ECG25 for many years and play with a Dunlop 1.5 pick .Also your fat tone comes from picking close to the end of the fingerboard and I only use the neck Humbucker.Jamie

  18. #17

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    Hey Tony,

    Any chance there is a floater and a mounted pu guitar you can try side by side. It would be great if they were very similar except for the pu. Use the same amp and all the same settings on the guitar and amp. I had that opportunity to do just that and I tried Eastmans with floaters vs. Eastmans with a mounted pu. I was completely surprised by how much brighter sounding the guitars with floating pickups sounded. I preferred the darker sound of a guitar with a mounted pickup.

    2nd thing... A lot of players from a blues background (and rock also) use a default setting on the guitar of wide open... 10 on the volume and 10 on the treble. I found to get the sound I like, I need to roll off the volume and the tone. Usually I have the volume around 7, the tone control is variable depending on the guitar. Some guitars it might be 7 others it might be as low as 2 or 3. You just got to use your ears and listen for that spot where the tone control starts darkening your tone and adjust from there.

    For me, the above two items I discussed have the biggest impact on the tone.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by FatJeff

    I personally think most of a player's tone is in their hands and their own personal style. I saw Jonathan Kreisberg a couple of weeks ago...he plays a Gibson ES175 through a Fender Princeton Reverb, a classic setyup, but he's also got a pedal board that I checked out - he's got a Voodoo Labs Sparkle Drive, some delay/reverb boxes, and a volume/expression pedal, but I'm convinced that he would sound like Kreisburg even if he were playing through my setup. I understand the desire to change gear to make your sound more like Kenny, or Wes, or whatever, but at some point you just have to go with what you got and make your tone your own.
    Yeah when you play that good you can play with any equipment... BTW had two recent experiences with an Cube 80 and I do not understand the love for Cube amps - they do not sound good at all IMO. And I am plugging a vintage archtop to them - this guitar sounds good with any crap amp but the Cubes are SO digital to may ears... But again Kreisberg would make it so gorgeous of course!

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyknight
    When you talk about pick attack, could you please elaborate? I rarely use picks now but I wouldn't mind trying again and can always accept advice!
    This was a well-intentioned attempt I made to illustrate some thoughts:

    "Approaching the Acoustic Archtop"


    Also, my demo vid of the '34 L-5 also has a little finger style thrown in. And that guitar had 13-56 bronze strings at the time.
    Last edited by rpguitar; 10-13-2011 at 11:18 AM.

  21. #20

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    Well, you should have tried the zt. Fender amps color the sound. It can be a nice color, but they won't sound anything like a guitar being recorded direct. A solid state amp with a flat response would get you a lot closer.

    I know you like this cat, but I don't listen to anyone who says they can "hear for me." Sounds like that attitude might have cost him a sale.

  22. #21

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    All amps color the sound. There is no such thing as "pure" sound from an amplifier - I have always hated that claim, which is marketing language intended to make you think the amp is this perfect, ethereal conductor of pure acoustic energy. No; it's a mess of electronic components, and a speaker cone mounted inside a box with various hardware and materials. Of course it affects the sound.

    Only by plugging directly from the guitar to a pristine recording preamp can you approach uncolored sound (and the recording geeks will hop right on that statement and talk about how each preamp colors the sound!).

    So the whole thing is a myth. The amp is the "other half" of the electric guitar.

  23. #22

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    No doubt! Actually pickups, caps, pots, cable... all that stuff before the amp colors your sound!

  24. #23

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    rpguitar,

    I liked your discription in the video of pushing the string rather than hitting it with the pick. I've found that is the trick to rich tone from all accoustic guitars and mandolins.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramps
    I liked your discription in the video of pushing the string rather than hitting it with the pick.
    Thanks for acknowledging that. It turned out to be the minor epiphany from that video. It's especially true with archtops, and I'm sure it's because they have a relatively stiff response when compared to flattops.

    When you hit the archtop's strings with a typical flattop strum motion, the sound produced is heavily affected by the impact of your pick on the strings. When you firmly push the strings instead, you minimize that impact component of the sound, and emphasize the response of the guitar's body/top to the string vibrations and air movement.

    Now, what's interesting is that everybody swears by heavy picks for archtops. I find that with a lighter, more flexible pick (Tortex .73 is my fave), you can incorporate more strumming into your technique, because the pick yields more to the strings, reducing the impact component of the sound. Pick angle matters a ton as well in these scenarios.

    I spend lots of time on this stuff... Mostly it's good. Not always.

  26. #25

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    Great discussion, guys, I really appreciate it (and RP I'll be listening to that vid when I reboot my computer - I don't have an onboard sound card and thereforem only power up the external studio system when I need to).

    Mr. B. - yeah - this guy is interesting, nice enough at the shop but then, he's sold about 100 instruments to my students over the last 10 years! But he is (like most of us) a bit opinionated at times :-) But what cost the sale so far is rather that I just didn't get that vibe I was expecting from the guitar. It doesn't mean that it's the wrong guitar for me, but it's clear like Frank says, that I need to find a shop where I can try a few alternatives out and compare the different set-ups. But that's good news as at least I'm getting closer to the goal :-) even if I have to wait a little longer.

    It's interesting what's been said about rock and blues guitarists. I've never played close to the bridge and pretty much always use the neck pup playing as close as possible to it. I have a Tele which has been recommended, but I love the sound I get from it's lipstick pup and would have a hard time replacing it with a humbucker even it it would give me a better jazz sound.

    Anyway, all good advice here - I'll definitely look into that idea of 'pushing' the string.

    And I've told my wife that after we get the guitar sorted out, we're going to have to move somewhere with a little more culture (and a couple of good guitar shops) - after living in New York, LA, Chicago, Nashville and a bunch of other places, it's getting to be a bit hard living in a place where the biggest employer is the local pharmacy :-) Course, it has it's good points too.