The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by entresz
    Most of my favourite tones from jazz guitarists are the brighter ones.
    Me too. Also back in the 50s adding reverb was an anathema and considered very bad form.

    Howard Roberts on HR Is A Dirty Guitar Player and Color Him Funky. Perfect jazz guitar tone for me.





    Also Johnny Smith's later recordings, which may have been brighter just because of improved recording technology



    Last edited by Flyin' Brian; 02-03-2015 at 09:24 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    I think more people apply the term "jazz" guitar less narrowly than many here. I'm sorry but I don't think the term "jazz" guitar is so easily pigeonholed. If you mean guys like Wes, Benson or Joe Beck (I don't feel he's "dark") I think you diminish the genre.

    My interpretation may be a bit wide because I would easily associate names like Jan Akkermen, John McLaughlin, Les Paul, DeMiola, Larry Coryell, Larry Carlton, or styles like fusion, and even Gypsy (Django) just maybe as "jazz" guitar... maybe? None are that dark and all seem to have made a better living at playing than I have.

    IMO anyone who wants to pigeonhole "jazz" guitar into a single style or sound is completely off track with the reality of the flexibility of your ear. I for one do not think that
    a guy in hush puppies, loose pants with a single pup guitar, tapping his foot who can HEAR the foot tapping, is playing "the" jazz guitar style :-)

  4. #78

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    I think all players make tone decisions based on how they fit in the ensembles they play in. And that changes with each performance space, mix of players, instrumentation, etc.

    Acoustic and electronic ensembles present different challenges in terms of mix and ensemble sound.

    In the end it's a matter of taste, but it's no surprise to me that a bright and biting tone is not necessarily the first choice of players working with an acoustic jazz ensemble. Or that things get brighter with electronic instruments and higher volume.

  5. #79

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    When I was in City College of New York, doing my Music Ed program, some of my friends told I should really go for a Jazz program there, with John Patittucci being on the faculty and all... I already had a degree from another college in jazz, plus I was more into rocknroll at the time, but decided to give it a try. I didnt prepare much, just went and play a few tunes, dont think i did a good job, and so I got rejected. I showed up with Gibson SG btw..

    Anyway, afterwords went to see the guitar chair guy on the faculty, asked him what did i do so terribly wrong i cant be on the program. And so he goes: "your tone is not jazz' . I asked what do you mean? He grabs a guitar, rolls off off all the treble, then rolls off all the treble on his amp. He strikes a chord, and its a muddy mess to my ears, and he says: thats what jazz guitar should sound like! I walked off thinking its probably for the better I'm not under his guidance, I really dont need this attitude from teachers.

  6. #80
    Hmmm...interesting concept. In my mind most jazz guitar players go for a natural clean sound. I find most players I like have a nice clean warm yet bright tone. I like Charlie Christian's, Jimmy Raney's, Tal's, Kenny's, Wes's, Ed's, Joe Pass's, Grant Green's, Peter Bernstein's tone. I am more of a traditionalist I too come from the old "any amp that works is a good amp" time period. Now that I have finally got a decent archtop electric I starting to experiment with my tone. I find it's pretty easy to get the tone you want by just leaving stuff alone...

    Now when I practice jazz guitar at home I have one of those Roland micro cube amps that I use in the British amp setting and a slight amount of reverb and the tone set at about 1 o'clock. I don't mess with the tone control on my Epiphone Regent. It's got a fat tone. I like fat clean and bright. Not muddy.

  7. #81

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    I guess at the end of the day it's more about the melody, harmony, and rhythm.

    Tone is icing.

  8. #82

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    Tone is definitely icing and I am by no means a tone monger. Hell, my axe is a Schecter with some high output Duncans that came stock, but last night I played out and sat next to two guys. One with an Ibanez semi, one with an Ibanez archie. One had a Henriksen amp and one had a Fender amp. My tone was pretty darn awful by comparison. I dare say, it was a bit distracting. I've got to figure that one out. I didn't have enough time to twiddle knobs, so... who knows.

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by rictroll
    I guess at the end of the day it's more about the melody, harmony, and rhythm.

    Tone is icing.
    I don't know about. tone is the first thing you hear and if you don't like the tone you probably won't continue listening no matter how good the playing is, I've certainly stopped listening if I can't stand the tone.

  10. #84

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    My idea of jazz tone is rich, but not overly bright, but with not too much bass -- more mids I guess. I like some bass, but I want it clear while the treble is singing-- that's a tough to find combo IMO. Play with some drums & everything changes -- usually need more treble & who knows what else! It's a moving target

  11. #85

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    There is a difference between what jazz tones have been and what they can be. I never thought that jazz tones have been dull - far from it - but even with with exceptions, jazz tones have generally been less cutting than rock. I suspect that the perception mentioned by the OP arises because jazz guitar is on balance played with less distortion and overtone content than rock. This generalization may be eroding, but it certainly is true of many of the iconic jazz players mentioned already in this thread.

    Regardless of that though, jazz is a spontaneous conversation among musicians, and nothing about having a spontaneous conversation requires that jazz tones remain forever as they have been. Quite to the contrary (as others have pointed out), as the gear, stylings, and tone of other jazz musicians evolve, ensemble playing with them will likely push at least some jazz guitarists to evolve their gear, stylings, and tone too.

    I confess that it is hard for me to imagine say, a Jimi Hendrix like treatment of the American Songbook <color me groaning>, but that may be just another one of my many limitations. As a rule, "stasis" and "jazz" don't go well the same sentence (this sentence hopefully being an exception ).
    Last edited by HighSpeedSpoon; 02-04-2015 at 12:46 AM.

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentwiz
    Man, that is my biggest battle! That darn e!
    Start with the top E polepiece raise it as high as you can without the string hitting it when you play then balance the volume of the strings by adjusting the rest of the pole pieces, for instance the B pole piece will need to be lowered much more than any others. If you look closely at videos of Jazz players like Herb Ellis etc when the camera zooms in to the guitar you can see the different height of the pole pieces, Barney Kessel is an exception as he used a CC pickup.

  13. #87

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    One of the considerations for the earlier dull sounding jazz tone was that guys were backing off on the treble because the combination of single coil pickups and early amp technology tended to be very noisy.

    Cutting some of the high end helped with that and later the development of the humbucking pickup removed the problem.

  14. #88

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    Hey, Flyin' Bryan:

    I never thought of that, but I bet you are right. Knocking the treble back hides some single-coil noise alright.

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentwiz
    Man, that is my biggest battle! That darn e!
    Not a problem if you use a heavier gauges of E and B strings. The high E never gets plinky or thin with the LaBella 15-56 set.

  16. #90

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    I prefer to hear the sound of the guitar, rather then have it manipulated through a series of electronic pedels
    that make the sound of the guitar exceptable.

  17. #91

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    Mr. Greentone, I would submit that Grant Green had the perfect jazz tone: sharp, well-articulated, bright but not tinny, not too sustained, just a touch of reverb. Kenny Burrell as well.

    Not much to add to the above discussion, but for the most part I think the guitar fits into mainstream jazz as either a piano-like rhythm instrument or a horn-like solo instrument. In either case, comping or solo, excessive brightness or sustain or distortion muddy things up and do not contribute to a good overall sound.

    With a few exceptions--I think Miles' various guitarists leading up to Mike Stern went toward increasingly more distortion as his sound got more bombastic and "modern", which I can accept. I like the modified sounds of Metheny and Scofield and Charlie Hunter for the most part.

  18. #92

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    I play a solid body electric for jazz and get a good tone.

    - the pickups (single coil) are set way down flush with the pick guard
    - medium soft nylon pick
    - the amp (Twin Reverb) tones are set treble and bass at minimum, middle about "8"
    - I use the amp's -3dB input #2
    - reverb is at "2" where it does not sound as reverb, just slightly ambient

    Putting the pickups further from the strings basically opens the "aperture" of the pickup - it senses more string length and provides a more complex tone. The nylon pick just works great for getting a more "flat-wound" tone from light round-wound strings. Getting the treble out of the tone allows for more of that slight "diffusion of pitch precision" that you get from a hollow body, and careful amp placement finds that nice jazz "thump" that you don't get by just boosting the bass tone control.

  19. #93

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    Johnny Smith always said that he wanted a flat tone response, and (paraphrasing) that the biggest problem was Fender amps that boost both bass and treble so much.

    IMO opinion the reason why so many folks roll of the treble, is that they are playing guitars and amps which have a natural treble boost, and they are fighting to get back to zero.

    For my jazz tone I look for the fundamental frequencies of guitar's range to all have the same volume, so that from 82.5 Hz (low E string) to 880 (A on the 17th fret, high E string) all the notes sing out clear and smooth,

    Even when I plug straight into the board, I find the high E string volume starts to drop off somewhere above the 7th fret, so occasionally I'll boost the mids at in the range 600-1000 Hz in an attempt to get back to flat response. It only takes a little if the amp / board response is already flat. It takes a struggle if the amp / board has some frequencies already notched or boosted. I fully agree that getting that high E to sound right is part of the challenge.

    When I play live, my archtops have a lot of bass and the that's the first place I get feedback, around the resonant frequency of the box, so I even cut the bass in that situation. It sounds fine, and it totally surprises many folks who think that they must roll off the treble to sound jazzy!

    For sure, the EQ equations that work for rock / blues / solid body guitars are really different than what works for our nice archtops, and that leads to lots of confusion, and unnecessary outlay of funds!

    As for the lack of reverb, Fender's first reverb amp was in '61 or something, so it's no surprise that you didn't here much on records before that.

  20. #94

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    Interesting post that makes me reflect. Just some observations:

    1) Trying to play like Wes with the tone rolled off, you can hear some transient highs that the skin of your thumb will generate that don't come out with the pick. His tone was so complex, and it depends on the recording. I love anything he did. The snappy earlier stuff (on a Fender Jazzmaster?) is way fun, too.

    2) Depending on the type of reverb and/or delay you use, the "reflections" will often result in reduced bass on the extended signal, adding back some highs to what otherwise would be a darker tone. Probably why I like to play with it on most of the time, and use several.

    3) The complete absence of reverb, coupled with a short slap back delay is one of the very cool things about Wayne Krantz' tone.

    4) I Love and admire Pat Martino, but never liked his tone. Way too muffled for me, and probably the definitive example most people think of, when they react to overly dark jazz guitar.

  21. #95

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    Wow I tried lowering my neck pickup on my telecaster flush with pickguard and really like it! Wanted to swap pickups but that might have saved it for me. Great tip Pauln!

  22. #96

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    I like Ray Crawford's tone in the Ahmad Jamal trio -- bright, but with some warmth.



    (Edit — updated the url)
    Last edited by KirkP; 09-02-2018 at 12:58 PM.

  23. #97

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    I'm an old guy and been listening to jazz for a million years, starting with my dad's big band records when I was in grade school, then in high school I discovered John Coltrane and later the great jazz sax players of the 50s and 60s.

    I separate the sounds that I like maybe in a funny way. While I like bright and lively sax music, I prefer darker tones for jazz guitar. When playing rock I prefer Vox or Orange amps, but for playing JAZZ I need a darker amp and right now I am looking for something a little more perfect. I want my jazz guitar music to be soothing and calming, not perky and energetic like I like my jazz saxophone.

    Just my quirky spin on things. .
    Last edited by lareplus; 02-11-2015 at 02:22 PM. Reason: typo

  24. #98

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    A factor in my choice of tone is what ensemble I'm playing with. E.g., for solo I'd want a good amount of both bass and treble. For duo with bass, I'd probably dial my bass knob down. With bright instruments in the ensemble I'd probably dial back the treble. The key is to find a tone that complements the ensemble.

  25. #99

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    I think all the above posts point out that everyone's idea of the 'perfect' tone differs. My take is that most players tend to try to duplicate the tone of someone else that they've heard and admire on a record but failing to take into account everything that went into producing that tone. Beyond the obvious guitar and amp, you have to think about the room and it's size, walls, floors and soundproofing and if there's reverb, was it a pedal, springs in the amp or a huge concrete chamber in the basement of the studio. There's also the mics, pre's, board and it's operator, etc., etc. When I started playing, I listened to, mostly, Chet Atkins, Johnny Smith, Wes Montgomery, Chuck Berry, and some surf groups, but since I was playing a Les Paul Jr. ('59 or '60 I found out later) with a Silvertone tape recorder for an amp, I never even thought about sounding like any of those folks - I was just glad to have something that would make my guitar loud enough to hear! I've never been a big tone fanatic - if it sounds good to me, it probably sounds OK to the audience. I played with a very good pedal steel player for years who said he liked playing with me because I matched the tone on my Tele to fit the song - mellow and rolled off for ballads and 'ice pick' for the Haggard stuff. I always took that as a great compliment. I'm also of the old school - any amp that works good is a good amp and with just enough reverb to give things a little life. I walk in to the gig, plug everything in, find a tone setting that suits me and let 'er rip. You can always tweak things a little bit if needed based on the tune. Basically, I'm just trying to say that I think it's more important to sound like yourself than a record that Grant Green or somebody else made back in 1955. Also, as I said above, I think it's important to fit the tone to the song. I guess it would be different if you were playing solo or with an artist who requires continuity, but I've always played with bands of varying sizes performing several different styles of music in one evening. Back in the 70's and 80's we had to pull out everyhing we knew for those 5 hour gigs. Even in the theater pit stuff, though, I find that a change of tone is required depending on the song.

  26. #100

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    When we talk about a "sound" of jazz guitar the discussion most often turns to the guitar type (solid, semihollow, archtop), construction (laminated, carved, etc.), tone wood selection, pickup type, pot and cap values, strings, picks, ad nauseum- and I do mean nauseum in many cases. We also talk about technique issues- picking style (Benson vs whatever else), picking strategies (alternate, downstrokes, economy, fingerstyle, thumbstyle, etc.), soft vs. hard picking, etc.

    I was listening to a recording of Ed Bickert playing behind Paul Desmond in the car today and was thinking "a lot of what makes Ed Bickert sound like Ed Bickert is not the Tele, the string, the amp or the picking style." What makes Ed Bickert sound like Ed Bickert is his musical expression. You could hand him a Martin dreadnought or a Harmony archtop and he'd still sound exactly like Ed Bickert. Why? Because of his musical expression.

    That's what's most important in a jazz guitar sound: the musical expression of the musician. The other stuff is just how others are allowed to hear that expression. The best jazz guitar will sound like crap in the hands of a hack.