The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx

    Ben Monder who is now endorsed by Ibanez now also plays a AS153

    In this clip in what looks like his home his also sounds metallic.. mine has this exact same sound.

    But in live performance it has a totally different tone... smooth, warm, soft and sweet.


    Just to make the point - a lot of players will be very happy to achieve the sound that Monder has in his home performance. A nice, quasi acoustic tone, with lost of overtones and possibility of differentiation. The sound at the beginning of the video (taken from a live performance) is more of the 'one tone fits all' kind of thing. Not that I want to criticise it, sounds great, but I doubt that this tone is necessarily the prototype of a jazzy sound that trumps the other.

    Its all a question of personal likes and dislikes of course, so no offence

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
    A lot of your sound in solo guitar comes from the way you use your right hand. I know your gear well enough to know that I could get a comfortable solo sound out of it with out too much trouble and probably the only change I'd make would be to lower the neck pickup a bit. If you're looking for starting point in the process, my suggestion would be to leave the gear alone and experiment with different right hand techniques and positions and just listen to how they change your sound and then start refining your playing. Once you get that a bit more together, then changing your gear starts to make a lot more sense.
    +1.

    To the OP:

    Where do you pick? Picking somewhere over the neck pickup will give you a jazzy mellowness whereas picking closer to the bridge wil give you more rock and roll like tone.

    What pick do you use? Experiment with various picks. D'Andrea ProPlecs give a smooth and soft attack. You may like them.

  4. #53

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    Just play music and do not look at Monder sound...
    I am not looking for a Monder sound, or anyones sound for that matter. I just used him as an example (and more to prove to myself) that a sweet sound can be obtained with this particular guitar. To me there is no real Monder sound even. It's just a standard jazz tone that thousand of players have. It's pretty common.

    Again I refer to my very first post where I am simply looking for a sweet warm smooth velvety tone. It's a pretty basic request to ask of this set up. Fow now it alludes me.

    Maybe you're getting a bit of fret buzz? Try jacking the bridge up a 1/4 turn of each thumbwheel and see if that helps.
    I have been setting up my own guitars for 30 years. No it's not fret buzz. It's not in specific locations either but on every note on every fret, even on open strings. it's in the sound itself.

    My guess is either it's the strings or the pickups are causing it.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxx
    I am not looking for a Monder sound, or anyones sound for that matter. I just used him as an example (and more to prove to myself) that a sweet sound can be obtained with this particular guitar. To me there is no real Monder sound even. It's just a standard jazz tone that thousand of players have. It's pretty common.

    Again I refer to my very first post where I am simply looking for a sweet warm smooth velvety tone. It's a pretty basic request to ask of this set up. Fow now it alludes me.



    I have been setting up my own guitars for 30 years. No it's not fret buzz. It's not in specific locations either but on every note on every fret, even on open strings. it's in the sound itself.

    My guess is either it's the strings or the pickups are causing it.
    I don't think there's any problem with the Super 58 Custom. I played this with the same pickup (but different guitar).



    And Mark Lucas (who's a great player) has the same pickups in this demo

    Last edited by Jim Soloway; 03-08-2014 at 05:30 PM.

  6. #55

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    Max if Monder is a reference, you should know he uses rounds. I don't think flats will help you honestly... Rolling the tone knob a lot and pro plecs will put you much closer to that sound. I don't think it's the pickups...

    Most recent fenders have that metallic sound to my ears, specially the HRD. It comes from the 800hz area and you can't touch it with the amp's eq... that's why I suggested getting an eq pedal. If you know someone with one to lend you just try it, something like a Boss GE-7 will be enough.

  7. #56

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    Thank you Jim for sharing your clip. You have a lovely sound indeed sir. Gorgeous in fact! I enjoyed that.
    I'm familiar with that Mark Lucas clip too, must have listened to it 20 times and almost bought that guitar as a result. Again very sweet.


    @ Jorgem

    Aha so we seem to be getting closer to the issue. But again I have a real dirt embarrassingly cheap old bangd up Strat copy that sounds just lovely through the Fender amp with round wound strings that are even newer than the strings on the Ibanez with none of that metallic stuff going on using the neck single coil.

    Maybe it's as someone commented on earlier that Fender amps + the Ibanez humbucker or humbuckers in general is what's making the hocus pocus here.

    I'm baffled.

    Here's another jazz guitar (Gibson) with a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe that sings real nice as well.. (no effects)

    Equipment used:

    1974 Gibson ES-175 Hollow Body Guitar
    Shure SM57 Dynamic Mic
    Audio Technica AT4040 Condenser Mic
    Fender Hot Rod Deluxe Amp
    M-Audio Profire 2626 Audio Interface / Preamp
    Logic Pro 9




    Hasn't the AS153 got a series/parallel switch, does it sound the same in both positions?


    It gives a whole bunch of different tones (15 in fact I think) but still not what I seek.


    Jazz Guitar Sound?-ar_hh_3waytog_trisound_2v2t-jpg

  8. #57
    just one more comment - the tone also depends very strongly on the player. Eg, the angle and mode with which the pick touches the string makes a huge difference. Such, the same instrument / amp can sound with one player warm and jazzy, and with another metallic and cold. These differences are the bigger, the more body the guitar has. A solid body guitar will react less on players tone skills than a Gib super 400.
    This is not to say that the issue is your fault, its just to open the equation, its axe, amp, pick and player.

  9. #58

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    I just got a response from Ben Monder by the way. What a gentleman.

    ------------

    Dear Ben,

    I have only recently discovered you as a guitarist and am really enjoying your playing.
    After seeing your video with the Ibanez AS153 I went out and bought one plus a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe III
    Both items are beautiful especially the guitar. But I have noticed that the sound and tone is rather metallic in every pickup configuration.
    I noticed too that in your video clip that your AS153 also sounds metallic.. but in the video when you are playing live with the same guitar it sounds a sweet as honey!!
    I bought this semi-hollow body because I was hoping for the best of both worlds with the mellow warm jazz tones.. (Benson, Abercrombie, Martino) and also more modern fusion sounds (Scofield, Yourself)
    The guitar came with regular round wound strings which could be part of the problem.
    I would be so grateful if you could give me a few pointers in the right direction and tell me how I can get a warm authentic jazz guitar sound and tone from this instrument?

    Thank you so much in advanced Ben.

    Regards and best wishes,

    Maxxx

    -------------------------

    Hi Maxxx

    I do think the Artstar is a great guitar but to be honest I pretty much always use my much older AS-50. This is just to say I don't have a ton of experience manipulating the sound of the AS-153, but if you want a rounder tone I would suggest rolling the tone control all the way down to zero and obviously just using the neck pickup. Also, amp settings, reverb, and delay have a lot to do with it, so use a dark reverb if possible. And of course the thicker the strings the fatter the sound. I use 13's. Finally, sometimes a guitar just has to be broken in, so give it some time.


    I hope you get what you want out of it!


    Best,


    Ben Monder
    Last edited by Maxxx; 03-09-2014 at 06:51 AM.

  10. #59

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    I always thought that in the video Ben was careful to avoid saying that he would be using the AS153 exclusively in the future !

  11. #60

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    Ben uses his tone pretty rolled off... Not sure it's zero but it should be close (Metheny also on some records). I guess it helps him to "hide" his strong tight hand picking? I wish he used a less dark sound sometimes. Really nice of him answering!

    Max, as you must have figured it out by now, I blame the amp. Those amps have that metallic sound with humbuckers...

  12. #61

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    Pedals and gizmos will come later. First I need a pure tone where a single sustained note sings to an inspires me. That's my core ingredient. A beautiful voice I am happy with. After that I can pull it to pieces and abuse the hell out of it.

  13. #62

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    I was just sent this from the Fender forum..

    ----------------

    Hi Maxxx,

    Try a 5751 or 12AY7 in the V1 position, and a 12AT7 in the V3 position (PI). These lower gain tubes will warm up the amp, giving you quite a bit less gain and cleaner sound. If that still isn't enough, you can lower the gain even more with a 5751 or 12AY7 in the V2 position also. In case you weren't aware, looking at the back of the amp, the tube positions start at the right with V1 counting upward toward the left.


    ---------------

    Things are looking up.
    Last edited by Maxxx; 03-09-2014 at 10:27 AM.

  14. #63

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    Fender hot Rod Deluxe III it is 40 watt tube amp about 20kg weight.
    It is really loud...I am not sure it's sounds jazzy and warm at low volume.
    There is also bright switch...do you tried it?

  15. #64

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    George Benson keeps his tone and volume all the way up.

    Do you roll the tone knob down or do you keep it all the way up?
    I have both the tone and volume controls basically all the way up. Something happens to the tone when I back up off the volume—I like to feel the bite of the guitar. Y’know, feel all the openness.


    Source:

    http://www.premierguitar.com/article...oolest_of_Cats

  16. #65
    something I wanted to express earlier in this thread...


  17. #66
    true, Morten 'has got it'... I came about him only recently but really like his effortless interaction between intellectual concepts and really cool sounds and lines...

    of course his amp vid is somehow ironic... but there is an element of truth in it...

    btw, from your samples clearly you know what a nice tone is, no offence...

  18. #67

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    Phil.. It took me over a whole full week of experimentation and endless tweaking, adjusting, more tweaking, a whole bunch of frustration, reading countless forums, reviews, methods, manuals and even emailing well known and famous jazz musicians hunting for info on tone creation and construction for my new and particular set up. (this being my first ever semi-hollow and my first ever valve amp)

    I'm not completely there yet but very pleased that I am heading in the right direction. Will add more clips as I make progress.

    It seems tone can't be bought.. but it can be carved.
    Last edited by Maxxx; 03-18-2014 at 07:21 AM.

  19. #68

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    If you surf the various guitar forums on the Internet you will run into the perception that I have encountered since I was a boy--jazz guitar tone is "dull," country and rock guitar tones are both "bright." This, presumably is why jazz players used and are using big archtop electrics and the rock/country folks are using solid body guitars.

    I think that most people on this forum realize that players like Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, Jimmy Raney, Grant Green, George Benson, Johnny Smith, Barney Kessel, or George Barnes actually had fairly bright electric guitar tones on record. True, they all used the neck pickup--compared to a guy like Chet Atkins (both pickups), or the rockers (bridge pickups)--but the sound is not one where the treble is rolled way off. Maybe Pat Martino is an exception, here.

    What does strike me, however, is that you don't hear much _reverb_ on the guitar signals of many of the jazz artists of the classic period. Compared to the fact that most everybody uses reverb in the signal chain these days, might this give rise to the perception people have that "jazz guitar tone is muffled?" Or, do you think it is principally that archtops on the neck pickup are just that much bassier than the guitars used in other music?

  20. #69

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    Here goes my take..

    First dark can mean three things: lots of bass, rolled off treble or both.

    Some of the most famous players to non-jazzers (say Metheny, Wes, Hall) have recorded fairly dark tones (Wes mainly due to the thumb).

    Also a lot of the more low profile local jazz players use the heavy pick, flats, "jazz amp" sound which lends to a very dark tone. It's not my favorite sound but lots of people associate jazz to that sound... Lots of people associate jazz to a sort of quiet hotel music despite lots of the most famous jazz drummers being loud players.

    I agree the more modern generation has a dark sound (Rosenwinkel, Monder, Kreisberg, Lund, etc...). I am not sure most people outside of jazz are aware of them honestly...

    In my opinion a lot of the Dumble blues tone players have darker sounds than jazzers (meaning less treble).

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    George Barnes
    You read my mind. Barney Kessel too. Both liked a good dose of reverb as well, but they also had feet in the pop world.

    I don't know the reason for the perception other than the fact that "muffled tone" does exist, or maybe muffled relative to rock guitar. Compared to other guitar-focused genres, it is quite different. The latent state of a guitar is a fairly bright instrument.

    Doing a search for "jazz guitar" on YouTube and ignoring the "non knowns" & lessons I found IJG of Wes Montgomery album, JG: Jim Hall album, a Jimmy Mullen video, and Russell Malone live on the first page. Compared to a Tele or Start on the neck, they sound non-bright to me. I wouldn't call it muffled but for someone used to hearing Mr. Tambourine Man, or I Want to Hold your Hand (or another era/genre), it's dark. So I think you are right: the hollowbody and mostly being on the neck does steer things towards a darker tone.

    I always figured the reason for that was jazz guitar going from an acoustic / percussive instrument more towards a melodic instrument with many players trying to emulate a horn.

    Who do you reckon is the most famous jazz guitarist that most people would have heard that don't listen to jazz guitar?

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by spiral

    Who do you reckon is the most famous jazz guitarist that most people would have heard that don't listen to jazz guitar?

    George Benson (Breezin')

  23. #72

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    I would say earlier on the Wes, Grant, and others had a brighter sound mainly due to the P90's. Post humbucker they went for fuller sound. Then record companies starting trying to get Jazz more popular with the masses and started rolling the edge off all instruments. Gear selection then was still pretty minimal and as I believe Barney Kessell said if an amp worked it was a good amp. Back then the Jazz guitarist mainly just cared about their guitars not there amps so much. Then Rock hit and guitars got brighter to stand out and get louder to keep up with drums and wailing sax. Eventually Surf music hit and the Fender Reverb unit and later reverb in amps.

    Now with Rock and R&B gaining popularity, the move from HiFi's to stereo's and better fidelity some came more highs. A lot of you Jazz guitarist were starting to become studio musicians guitar wasn't just a rhythm instrument anymore. With that studio and Rock came the telecaster as the main guitar of studio guys and we know how bright they can be.

    The 60's hits and so did the Guitar Star and Rock hero and all hell broke loose with guitars, the first pedals, and music industry seeing $$$$$$$ in their eyes. Guys started going from garage mechanics and souping up their cars to buying guitars to be a star. Since then guitar has morphed and morphed into everything and a lot of it is the guitar sounding like everything but a guitar.

    Jazz getting dark sounding to me was baby boomers who were into rock and edgy guitars heard Jazz and thought just roll off the tone and you're a Jazz player. I think the mentality stuck for a long time. The Jazz Rock came and brought Rock tone to Jazz, then Fusion so a bright sound was evolving. Another generation of rockers who are become gear obsessed are starting to get into Jazz and bringing their gear with them Jazz guitar is getting brighter the dark 60's is now more the sound of people playing legacy Jazz styles. You start getting the Sco's and Metheny's with their mixing of Rock, R&B, and Jazz music and guitar sounds. Now it's pretty much everyone for themselves.

    I hoping for at least another resurgence in acoustic Jazz like when McLaughlin did My Goals Beyond there was a resurgance then for a number of years and more acoustic Jazz.

    That's how I view things from my desert output.

  24. #73

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    tone is very personal..... and at the end of the day the player can alter it to suit their own ear

    and i know cos at the moment i play jazz mostly but also busy with a country tribute show and i take the the same guitar to gigs ....a tele with fender 51 no caster custom shop pickups for jazz ( i like Ted Greene tele tone) i roll back tone and use neck and ALSO play much softer(attack) with my fingers and for country twang i use bridge pickup and dig in to make it twang and hybrid pick with a plectrum .......

    so yes 2 distinctive , typical to genre tones easily and convincingly gotten by 1 player on one guitar

    and yes the basic stereo type idea of jazz being a dark/mellow tone and country being a sharp cutting tone definitely applies.

    i think these stereo types are accurate but a generalisation and of course there's many exceptions to this.

  25. #74

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    Most of my favourite tones from jazz guitarists are the brighter ones. The super dark tone that many of the more modern players use does not appeal to me much. I identify more with the sound of players such as Barney Kessel, Herb Ellis (especially the early stuff with the P90), Johnny Smith, Grant Green, and George Barnes. There's heaps more, but that's what's off the top of my head.

    I think what most jazz players seek is a full or rich sound. A bright sound can still be full/rich sounding. I think many people associate a rich/full sound with a dark sound- something that I believe is a bit of misconception.

  26. #75

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    Greentone,

    You identified one thing that annoyed me about early Tal Farlow, Jimmy Raney and others - and that's a lack of reverb. It took me a while to figure it out when I first started listening to a lot of Jazz guitar but that was definitely it. Some 40's and 50's Jazz just sounds too dry for my tastes. I found that even Kenny Burrell and Joe Pass had that rather dry tone on many of their albums.

    If you listen to Raney on his more recent album "The Master" (I believe that was the title), his guitar is not nearly as dry in tone.

    Great thread.