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RP - that's a beautiful sounding guitar and you really do demonstrate well how much the sound can differ depending on the pick and picking technique - thanks for sharing.
You've settled the question for me about the Monarch, though - it's acoustic sound was awful, and that's an important issue for me.
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10-14-2011 08:57 AM
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,A real acoustic archtop is optimized with bronze strings
RPGUITAR: thanks to your advise on another thread I can confirm your statement. Yesterday stringed my L5 studio (even if it has solid top but laminate sides and backs) with a set of Gibson Masterbuilt Premium Phosphor Bronze Acoustic Guitar light gauge 12 16 24 32 42 53 and the acoustic sound non amplified or through the piezo is what I was searching for. Not to the extent that I would sound on Berimbau like you, but as others said then it is on the player´s hands, not the instrument.
Last edited by gcb; 10-14-2011 at 12:23 PM.
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Since we're discussing acoustic tone too, I've noticed that my guitar sounds much better acoustically when I keep the back away from my belly. (not always easy to do in my current physical condition)
That and playing as close to the end of the fingerboard with a fairly heavy, not too pointy pick gives me the tone I like.
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I'm glad that folks are experimenting and learning about the different ways to make an archtop sing. Lord knows it's not easy, and it's not just one fixed answer either. Some archtops, too, just have "it" and some don't.
Recently I was going to sell my '34 Reissue L-5, and yet after restringing it and giving it some dedicated play time, I'm finding that it's now my favorite guitar. Go figure. This kind of thing drives me crazy! All because of a set of strings (GHS Bright Bronze) and some good focused physical bonding. The other side is that with effort and attention, you can often make the most of nearly any reasonable set of variables (strings, amp, neck carve, scale, etc.). It pays to be flexible sometimes.
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RP,
Originally Posted by rpguitar
I think it's too true. In fact, I often use 0.60 thickness for the pick. Or a Fender Medium for more attack, though I don't know the exact thickness of those.
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Ok so I have a new Ibanez AS153 and a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe and both are very nice.
The problem is that whatever settings I use the sound is kind of metallic and a little too bright. Even with the treble on the amp set to zero and the tone of the neck pickup also on zero it's still too metallic.
I'm thinking the roundwound strings that came on it could be partly contributing to this but also the pickups.
Anyone have any suggestions as to what could be done to give this Ibanez and amp a sweeter warmer, smooth velvety jazz tone?
Strings?, pickups?, amp settings?
Thank you..
Last edited by Maxxx; 03-08-2014 at 07:31 AM.
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Put on some TI Jazz Swing flatwounds 13's
Seriously
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+1 on flatwounds 13, it is the cheapest way to get closer to your goal. I am not a huge fan of rolling off amp treble or guitar tone to 0 because I feel it puts more a blanket on the tone than anything else...
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I know exactly what you mean and the flat wound suggestion (at least 12 gauge) should help.
However, if your very sensitive to treble frequencies like I am, you will constantly hear a very metallic grating sound coming from the high E which gets worse as you go up the fretboard (Especially past the 12th fret). Like a ringing that kinda hurts your ears.
This is mainly due to the Amp. I must have tried every single amp under £1,000 especially the fenders and they all did it. What they all had in common, was they were tube amps.
Solid State amps seem to do a far better job IMO so go to your local music shop (if the problem persists after a string change) and play through as many solid state amps as you can. you might find a surprising difference.
I also tried many £2-3000 amps and they had the same issue, the only one that didn't was one called a Two Rock Studio 35. The nicest sounding tube amp I've ever played.
Good luck
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hi,
I suggest to experiment with different picks.
Try to play near the neck humbucker/righ hand/.
Try to play fingerstyle...
Change attac of your pick.
cheque your guitar on different amps with different speakers.
Best
Kris
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Agree with the flatwound suggestions. Maybe try a 15 inch speaker cab?
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Thanks for the replies folks.
I already switched picks.. I have been using the little blue Dunlop Stubbies for over 15 years but a few days ago switched to the Dunlop ULTEX Jazz III which made an immediate and massive difference in terms of a softer attack which I really like.
I will order the Thomastik flatwounds asap, have read really great reviews on those strings.
No one has mentioned pickups...
Are these Ibanez Super 58 custom (Passive/Alnico) ok for a good jazz tone or would an upgrade of some kind be in order?
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You could try to screw the pole pieces down under the offending strings and lower the treble side of the pickup. I just put a Dimarzio 36th in the neck position of my Joe Pass and ended up screwing the pole pieces of the 1st and 2nd strings down level with the cover and that helped enough so that I could leave the tone control on full on the guitar and about 3pm on my amps and the shrillness was largely gone. That pickup has alnico 5 magnets which are pretty trebly compared with the alnico 2's. I have TI flats on that one and found that Chromes are a bit less bright.
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Flatwounds >.012s
Roll back your tone pot a bit (if you have one)
Pick >1.5 mm
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I mentioned in the first post that even with tone on the amp and the guitar both set to zero the Ibanez still sounds awfully metallic.Roll back your tone pot a bit (if you have one)
The Fender Hot Rod amp is fine.. I just tried a cheap $30 Strat copy on it and it sounds sweet as hell on the neck pickup even with round wound strings on.
So I'm thinking I need to lose these Ibanez pickups. Did I buy the wrong guitar?
Any and all pickup suggestions welcome.
Last edited by Maxxx; 03-08-2014 at 10:32 AM.
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yes, that setup you have should be fine for jazz. Make sure your presence control is at 10-11 o'clock. George Benson uses that amp and similar pickups so you should be fine. The flats should make a big diff but you should be able to get a great jazz tone even without that. Try turning the tone control down on the guitar a little Originally Posted by Maxxx
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Did you try boosting mids on the amp?
Lower your pickups...heavier strings...maybe raise string action slightly if it's really low. Try running the guitar's volume a little less than full up.
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I have been playing the same guitar, an AS153, for about a year. I think it is a great guitar and love it for funk and blues, but I have also spent time wondering how to get a more mellow, less bright, tone for straight ahead jazz. I have kept faith with my normal D'Addario round-wound 11's, rather than flats. However, for the last couple of months I have been playing through, by coincidence, an Ibanez TSA15 head with an Eminence Cannabis Rex speaker. I use a Hall of Fame reverb. If I put the amp treble on around 9 o'clock, the bass at 12 and engage the clean boost, I now get what is a nice mellow "jazz tone", considering its still a thin-line semi. .
I have also been thinking about a change of pickups, but the Super 58 Customs have got a lot of supporters and I am not sure they are the main source of the brightness. The AS153 has a maple block and an ebony fingerboard - both of which are going to make it brighter than alternative materials. I may yet change the pickups for some Bareknuckle Mules, but it is a risk and the Mules are not cheap.
However, I may have now side-stepped the issue, having just purchased an Ibanez AFJ91 (last week) to develop as a conventional jazz box, and things are becoming clearer. Same pickup as the AS153, but rosewood fingerboard, 2 fewer frets and, of course, hollow-bodied (and half the price !). It came with flats as standard and sounds completely different to the AS153. It manages to sound both more acoustic and somewhat jazzier than the AS153, but is still not ultra-dark in tone.
Once I've put some new strings on it - TI Swing (flatwound) 12s, I'll see if I can summon up enough nerve to post some comparison clips of the two.
My advice in the mean time would be not to rush into too many changes all at once. There are lots of pickup recommendations on this site, some of which will give you a darker tone, but may also end up sounding very muddy if you ever want to apply overdrive to your sound.
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That's a good point Jorg but I see many pro jazz guitarists using this very same amp including George Benson who also uses Ibanez guitars with similar pickups. There very many jazz guitarists using this amp.Is fine with single coils, which most fenders are. Not fine with humbuckers, which seems to be your objective. With humbuckers
Changing the pick has already given me a better tone with much less string 'clicking and clunking that was being transmitted through the amp.
I'm afraid I have nothing to mic the amp up with.Record your sound and show us...please.
Thank you Newsense for that detailed and helpful response. I almost bought that same box Ibanez guitar that you did but I went for the semi as I thought it would give me the best of all worlds both with the authentic smooth jazz tone and also more modern fusion possibilities ala John Scofield. I also see a ton of great jazz guitarists playing beautiful music on semi-hollow body guitars so the elusive sweet tone must be possible.
Ben Monder who is now endorsed by Ibanez now also plays a AS153
In this clip in what looks like his home his also sounds metallic.. mine has this exact same sound.
But in live performance it has a totally different tone... smooth, warm, soft and sweet.
Last edited by Maxxx; 03-08-2014 at 11:55 AM.
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A lot of your sound in solo guitar comes from the way you use your right hand. I know your gear well enough to know that I could get a comfortable solo sound out of it with out too much trouble and probably the only change I'd make would be to lower the neck pickup a bit. If you're looking for starting point in the process, my suggestion would be to leave the gear alone and experiment with different right hand techniques and positions and just listen to how they change your sound and then start refining your playing. Once you get that a bit more together, then changing your gear starts to make a lot more sense.
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Hi Jim..A lot of your sound in solo guitar comes from the way you use your right hand. I know your gear well enough to know that I could get a comfortable solo sound out of it with out too much trouble and probably the only change I'd make would be to lower the neck pickup a bit. If you're looking for starting point in the process, my suggestion would be to leave the gear alone and experiment with different right hand techniques and positions and just listen to how they change your sound and then start refining your playing. Once you get that a bit more together, then changing your gear starts to make a lot more sense.
I have had the guitar a week now and am on it every day. I play with pick(s) fingers, fingernails (from my classical guitar days) and thumb. Still it all sounds too bright and tinny.
Just ordered the Thomastik Jazz Swing Flatwound Electric Guitar Strings 11-47 and I also emailed Ben Monder asking him about his tone. Fingers crossed he replies. He uses Fender valve amps too by the way so I seem to be aimed in the right direction.
'Deep and dark tone' would do just nicely.
Ben monder Gear and Playing Style
Favouring a deep, dark tone with reverb via a Lexicon LXP-1 rack unit, he often splits his signal into two Fender Princeton tube amps. Distortion is a RAT pedal and lush chordal swells are achieved with an Ernie Ball volume pedal.
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Yes I tried with mids boosted and bass and treble from low to zero. Did not help.Did you try boosting mids on the amp?
Lower your pickups...heavier strings...maybe raise string action slightly if it's really low. Try running the guitar's volume a little less than full up.
Neck pickup is already lower than the bridge quite noticeably.
Have raised the action up and down again. No effect.
Played with every possible combination of tone and volume controls both on guitar and amp which gave me a whole array of tones but again all metallic.
Flat wounds ordered from Amazon.
Last edited by Maxxx; 03-08-2014 at 01:42 PM.
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My two bits: heavier flats ( at least 12's), speaker swap - celestion lead 80 smooths out the brighter frequencies in a fender amp, and, with the heavier strings, a medium gauge pick for the Benson "snap" - .73 to 1.0. A heavier pick is nice for warmer jazz tones in general, (I usually play a 1.5) but if you want that Benson tone, it helps to have the heaviest strings you can play along with a medium gauge pick. I think Benson himself said somewhere (I'm paraphrasing) "either heavy strings and a light pick or light strings and a heavy pick - you have to have something to push into." Or words to that effect.
I have found this to be true, if I want to warm up a guitar with lighter gauge strings, or get that Benson "snap". Picks are such an inexpensive way to play with your tone.
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Giving you guitar a huge boost in substance and sweetness, you may want to try the Electro-Harmonix "Black Finger" compressor. While a compressor usually does not solve the issues that you addressed, this one might. The thing this pedal offers is the combination of 2 tubes and the effects of a compressor, which gives your tone a very long sustain, sweetness, punch, without sounding metallic. If you play around a little with the tool, you will get some of the best jazz sounds out of your box that exist.
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Using a lot of reverb can make the guitar sound thin, l have 2 Ibanez guitars one with super 58's and one with Classic 57's the pickups are very close sound wise. Are you using your amp flat on the floor if you are you will get a base smear, a lot of the base frequencies spread across and through the floor, try putting your amp on a box or something or tilt it backwards slightly you should get a more focussed sound. if you play at fairly low volumes at home you will be getting a certain amount of acoustic sound mixing with the amplified sound that can also make the guitar sound thin, as you increase the volume to gigging levels it will disapear.
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