The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    that's a handsome ass guitar, mike. like the browning of the back and sides and the headstock shape.

    as for the ibanez pups, i sort of don't get it. if they were that great, why doesn't everyone use them? why aren't folks rushing to swap out their stock pups with ibanez ones, they way they do with gibson, duncan, dimarzio, lollar, throbak, et al? they are available, right? i've hardly heard a thing about them, and nothing at all outside of here. and ibanez certainly isn't doing themselves any favors, either.

    i've never played them, and am not questioning the quality, it just seems odd to me. if they have been around that long and are that good, you'd think they'd have a real following by now. even a sort of niche one, like dearmonds, old guild pups or goldfoils or whatever.

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  3. #27

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    Feet,

    Thanks for the compliments on the AR680 copy (that's carved spruce top, solid sides and solid carved mahogany back). Nice guitar, $500.00 shipped in a nice hard case (buddy of mine used to buy in bulk from Yunzhi for years, gets a "lot price").

    And those Super 58s do have a real following, just not here because guys are more into Jazz. Now you hit the Ibanez Collectors World Forum or Greco forums and they're quite desirable there. For a while Ibanez and Greco were using a pickup that was stamped Super 58/Z - Z as in Dry Z - the Greco holy grail pickup. They're essentially the same pickup, came off the same assembly line and used sell for at least $150.00 in good shape.

    Short story is that the Ibanez pickups, though probably able to order thru a Authorized Ibanez Dealer (like Guitar Center) it isn't that easy a process. Heck I can find 50 examples of Seth Lover 4 Wires on eBay for $105.00 and up shipped. The Super 58 is kind of a dirty little secret. But most smart dudes leave them in the guitars they came with and being it isn't THAT easy to order them (assuming Ibanez has them in stock) they become sort of collectable. Any guy trying to restore an older Ibby that came with Super 58s stock would want vintage and usually if they are around they sell for $150.00 each easy. Rare finds for less but that's a rare occasion. All that being said the easier to find Seth Lovers, Lollars, 36th Anniversary and Classic 57s put you right in that warm fat woman tone zone without a lot of the horsing around.

  4. #28

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    There was a period where Ibanez had guitars made in Korea and in the better models like the AS120 they had Super 58s made for Ibanez in Korea by Mighty Mite... There's countless stories like that, I'm just finishing my first double espresso so can't recall more of them at the moment. LOL

    If you're a long in the tooth Ibanez fan like myself (got my first Ibanez in '65) you know some of the hidden gems. Some of the guitars being made in China right now for Ibanez, the upper tier models, are really fabulous and have truly great necks and amazing fretwork. Some of the best I've seen. Those will go down as true gems, they're very affordable but really are a lot nicer to play with a total replacement of the electronics. I have this AS103bmnt12, got it used for $900.00 but it had been gutted and the pickups are Classic 57s, the wiring all shielded and CTS pots and caps, new output jack. Big difference. (gotta go find a photo on my iPhone.).

    The Myth of Super 58 Pickup-10013589_10152125503772239_10318398_n-jpg
    Last edited by BigMikeinNJ; 01-11-2016 at 11:14 AM.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by m_a
    The AM83. No frills, no bling... looks just right IMO Yen equivalent of about $400. Why won't Ibanez sell it in the US and Europe, because it would be too cheap?
    To get one of these you would have to find one in a store in Japan, that's not an impossible task, just take some searching. When I was hunting for my first AS103s in burled and spalted maple (the models with the flame maple binding, rosewood pick guard and knobs and Super 58 Customs) I had to go through about 17 pages on Google and found an ad in their cache, a kid in Alaska had a brown burl, decent price. Scored that, then a week later still searching again on Google I found another ad about 25 pages back, in their cache, for a new AS103sm (spalted maple) natural finish. A music store in Bozeman Montana had the AS103, the highly desired AWD102 (in natural, think PRS hollow clone) and a number of burled and spalted AF105s in floating and set pickup configurations. Once I had mine in hand I let the guys on ICW know and the dealer got cleaned out. Somehow these made for Japan and Europe models made it to stores in Fairbanks Alaska and Bozeman Montana...

    For a few dollars more if you don't mind the bling the AM93 is real sweet. Though I can truly see why you like that AM83 so much. Simple, clean, sexy. Like a hot woman that doesn't have to show cleavage to get you looking twice.

  6. #30

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    Something like that 😎 Old post of mine. I'm not a fan of the bling on my AM93 which I m keeping nonetheless. Had I been aware of the 83 I would have bought it instead.If the bling accounts for the $100 difference with the 83, I'd rather Ibanez focused on more essential upgrades in hardware for the 93.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigMikeinNJ
    [B]There was a period where Ibanez had guitars made in Korea and in the better models like the AS120 they had Super 58s made for Ibanez in Korea by Mighty Mite... There's countless stories like that, I'm just finishing my first double espresso so can't recall more of them at the moment. LOL
    If you're a long in the tooth Ibanez fan like myself (got my first Ibanez in '65) you know some of the hidden gems. Some of the guitars being made in China right now for Ibanez, the upper tier models, are really fabulous and have truly great necks and amazing fretwork. Some of the best I've seen. Those will go down as true gems, they're very affordable but really are a lot nicer to play with a total replacement of the electronics. I have this AS103bmnt12, got it used for $900.00 but it had been gutted and the pickups are Classic 57s, the wiring all shielded and CTS pots and caps, new output jack. Big difference. (gotta go find a photo on my iPhone.).
    Big Mike, truer words are rarely spoken. Once upon a time in the late 60's I was an ibanez player then I moved onto other brands. In the past several years I've re-discovered them and some are truly gems.

    I'm one who goes in big time for appointments. Gibson figured out how to add $500 for a bound neck, another $500 for bound "F" holes, yet more for a bound head, forget about a bound pick guard, 5 piece neck, BEAUTIFUL sunburst, wood bridge and TP.

    With some Ibanez that beautiful maple binding is spectacular. My Chinese made AF125AMB is an example, one that even Ibanez is hard pressed to equal today, let alone anyone else for less than an order of magnitude more buckazoids. My AF125? Less than $500 with case? Delivered? Value? Incalculable to me.

    As far as pups go, whatever pickup that is in an Ibanez and sounds good in a particular model is OK with me.

  8. #32
    I emailed Hoshino USA about Super 58 Customs last year. Here are their responses:

    "For all intents, they are the same pickups. They are wound the same, use the same type of magnet, and share the same tonal characteristics.
    However, the materials used in the Japanese line are going to be more high end as far as durability and quality (better covers, magnets, coils, etc.)"

    Then when I specifically asked about Alnico III

    "
    They’re actually going to be Alnico III. Any current Super 58s will have IIIs in there.

    Thanks again!"

  9. #33

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    However, the materials used in the Japanese line are going to be more high end as far as durability and quality (better covers, magnets, coils, etc.)"

    As I've stated many times you get what you pay for. Also as I stated above if you want a great warm classic PAF tone grab a set of Duncan Seth Lovers, Lollar Imperials, Classic 57s. Hard to go wrong. A set of Seth Lovers will cost you about $216.00 shipped on eBay. Well worthy the investment. Having the pleasure of owning AS103's with the Super 58 Customs and an '80s AS200 side by side comparisons TO MY EARS the original Super 58's won hands down. Now if you are saying you think the Super 58 Customs will work for you, go well run with it. Just don't try to spew some nonsense about they're Super 58s or just as good. They're not.

  10. #34

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    That's the clearest explanation of the differences I've read so far. Thanks for posting this !

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by HCarlH
    When in doubt, I just switch out with Seymour Duncan. I know what I'm getting and 95% of all my guitars have Duncan's in them.....even my Ibanez AM93. The difference between the SD and Super 58 Customs was noticeable.
    Ibanez is spinning caca to it's customers. I had this great AS103 with the Super 58 Customs stacked against an AS200 with Super 58s, may I call them THE REAL DEAL, and there was noticeable difference. I live for my guitar sound so I do not scrimp. I suggest if you want to buy a Chinese made Ibanez do, they make really fantastic guitars. Especially anything in the AS103 and above for Semi-hollows. The Super 58 Customs are OK, but do not kid yourself they are NOT the Super 58s. Take my advice buy the guitar and save a little money, say $300.00 or so, grab some Seth Lovers, Or Lollar Imperials or 36th Anniversary's or Classic 57s. Then take all that to your trusted tech, have him gut the cheap chinese caca pots and wires and install good shielded wires, CTS pots, caps and output jack. Man oh man YOU WILL be glad you took my advice. I don't dicker around or debate. I have had IN HAND EXPERIENCE comparing them. So please take agrouchy old mans' advice. Ibanez is not doing itself favors spinning this vague "it's almost as good" nonsense. They're not as good.

    In theArmy they taught me "almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades"...

    Welcome to the Jazz Guitar Gear Page...

    Big

    The Myth of Super 58 Pickup-p3180106-jpg



    Trooper the cat says "hey mister, watch out, my old man knows his stuff"
    The Myth of Super 58 Pickup-1397590_10151908161577239_1090379851_o-jpg

  12. #36

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    In my Am93 the parts under the vol/tone knobs read made in Korea and don't look shabby. Which is pretty irrelevant as the guitar's neck just gave up on me, it's going back to ibanez under warranty.

  13. #37

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    m_d

    Very sorry to hear that you are having a problem with that AM93, any chance you can finagle up enough bread to get say a used AM200 ?? Those were really nice instruments, I used to work not far from a music store that was an authorized Ibanez dealer and they had a number of especially fine AM models come through there. Same mantra, much better pickups and some doggone nice wood. Very nicely built.

    Again my regrets that your guitar is giving you fits.


    And a Blessed Easter Weekend to you all,

    Big
    Last edited by BigMikeinNJ; 03-25-2016 at 08:24 PM.

  14. #38

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    That's what I would like to do in fact when it returns, new or repaired... sell it immediately and find a used better AM or AS, or Yamaha SA, the 22OO is going for a very good price new these days and I like it a lot. Because I didn't like how it happened, all it took was a quarter of a turn of the truss rod, I would be worried about durability long term. I might ask for your advice if I decide to go for the used option. The one in your link is super sweet.
    Many thanks Mike, and a happy Easter to you too.
    Last edited by m_d; 03-26-2016 at 12:42 AM.

  15. #39

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    m_d

    I will be more than happy to help. Also a wise move would be to get registered on the ICW (Ibanez Collectors World) site, once you join you can look in their Free Classifieds. You start dealing with anyone that wants a reference tell them BigMike sent you, if they're not sure I'll be glad to answer any inquiries they may have. And it is also a great place to SEARCH any time you want info on an Ibanez model, look there. Of course there are a lot of other options for you aside from Ibanez. In that AM size would be the Eastman T184MX models. A little different in that they are CARVED SOLID tops and backs with a small block only under the set tailpiece and bridge. Newer examples have Duncan 59 or Seth Lover pickups. Little touches like flame maple binding. A bit more than an AM93 but doggone nice. The Eastman's don't really translate their understated quality in photos so you might drop jaw when you see one in hand, they are quite nice.

    Big

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by seanmo
    You DON'T get what you pay for. That myth was exposed in the 19th Century You pay what the manufacturer sets as the price.
    LOL!
    I don't completely agree. In actuality, I believe that everything is negotiable. "You don't get what you deserve. You get what you negotiate".

    My business mentor was talking to me about negotiation. He commented, "If the other side doesn't storm out of the room at least twice, you've left too much on the table".

    I negotiate every major purchase (most marketers define a major purchase as anything over $500). I don't pay full retail for anything over $200, especially musical gear. I am reminded of a quotation from a Micro Economics textbook that stated:

    "In a given market segment where there exist multiple substitute goods (goods which fulfill the same or similar need) , these goods will be reduced to the status of commodities and the purchase decision will often be based solely on price."

    I believe that this is particularly true in cases where the products are "in distribution". That is to say, where the exact same product is available from multiple vendors.

    Specific Example:

    A few years ago I was browsing on Musician's Friend.com, when I noticed that the Ibanez AF-125AMB had just been discontinued. I called MF and was told that while they were out of new stock, they had two that had been returned. They were "AS NEW" and would sell one to me for $799 (The MAP on the AF125 was $995). I replied that while $799 was a good but not great price on a brand new instrument, these instruments were effectively "USED" and therefore were not worth that much. I got the guitar for $699!!! A very nice MINT condition instrument at a very fair price

    Question: What is the definition of the Yiddish word "Schmuck"?

    Answer: A Schmuck is someone who has lived in a town for more than two weeks and still pays retail!

  17. #41

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    I've had the opportunity of playing, repairing and modding dozens of Ibbys with the various versions of the so-called "Super 58".

    Vintage or new, ceramic or alnico, all of them had one thing in common: they all sucked, specially the neck p'up! And some cases I even got paid to properly dispose of'em!

    And no, I'm not joking.

    I consider'em one of those urban legends that are hardest to die.

    You can fire away; I put on my asbestos suite!

  18. #42

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    Hi to all, I'm new in this forum.
    I guess most of the guitars' sound comes from the pickups. (I have an old Ibanez 2350 with old Super 70 pickups and they sound great)
    I want to buy an AS153 (wich costs around 600€, 645 $).
    As an alternative I could buy a used AS93 (I just found one for 100 €) and replace the original ACH or Super 58 custom pickups with 2 Super 58 (price: about 250 €).
    What do you think is better to do?
    Thank you
    Paul

  19. #43

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    Paul,

    First off welcome to the family.
    Finding a true set of Super 58s isn't easy or cheap sometimes.
    You can likely find their sonic equal pretty easily: the Duncan Seth Lover on eBay in your country. Here in America the 2 wire configuration with gold cover sells for around $105.00 american shipped. The 4 wire configuration sells for around $116.00 to $120.00 in gold shipped. Gotta remember Seth Lover designed the original Gibson PAF back in the day, and that was the pickup that Ibanez so carefully copied when they came out with the Super 58... You can't go wrong.

    If you are doing the work yourself or having a tech do it the 2nd most important thing to do is gut harness and have shielded wire, CTS pots and caps and output jack installed. It helps. I know I've done this very exercise with Eastmans and Ibanez guitars. I think it's worth the money. I don't like cutting corners on my morning coffee, shampoo or the pickups I put in my guitars.

    Good luck with your experiment and again, WELCOME

    Big

  20. #44

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    Thank you for your answer and your welcome, BigMikeinNJ.
    I will probably buy an AS153, which has a warmer sound than AS93 (but uses Super 58 custom, not Super 58) with no need of pickup substituting.
    Another possible substitution is replacing the Super 58 pickups with Classic 57, like in this video


  21. #45

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    I have owned both the AS93 and the 153 in the past. I swapped the ACH pickups in the 93 for Seymour Duncan's - great improvement. A couple of guitar swaps later, I bought the AS153. Even with the standard pups I liked this much more than the AS93. It is altogether a much nicer guitar - the neck and fret treatment were outstanding. I think you are right to go with the AS153 - but play it for some weeks before deciding whether or not to swap the pups. When I first got mine, I believed I would do a swap, but in 3 years of ownership the desire was never strong enough - the Super 58 Customs were great.

  22. #46

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    Thank you, newsense, for you opinion. But the answer is: can you imagine if an AS93 with Classic 57 or SD Seth Lover can sound better than an AS153 with original Super 58 custom pickups?
    I like very much the sound of the AS153 (I tried it a couple of times in a shop) but I cannot really image what kind of sound can come from an AS93 with better pickups. My opinion is that pickups are 90% of the sound of a guitar.
    Last edited by paulmartini; 01-29-2017 at 07:49 AM.

  23. #47

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    What do you mean by sound better ?

    In my experience, the most obvious change when swapping out Ibanez pickups, has been in the harmonic content of the Bridge pickups. Here you can get some major changes (improvements ?) when playing rock, blues or fusion, depending on the replacement chosen. However I suspect that as this is a jazz forum, you are probably more concerned with what change you can get in the neck position. In the neck position the Super 58 family have great clarity, some may say delicacy. Its a matter of taste: you may find other pups suited to your taste, but you probably need to listen to the 153 for a period and then compare how the after-market pup sellers (Seymour Duncan, DiMarzio, Bare Knuckle) describe their offerings.

    I did once swap the S58C neck pup for a Classic 57 in an Ibanez AFJ91. I have to say that the change was not so noticeable. This was one of the reasons, when I came to the AS153, that I kept the stock pups.

    I would therefore say that if you decide to swap the AS153 to Classic 57s, I'm sure they won't sound bad, indeed you may feel they sound better, but you also may wonder whether it was really worth the effort.

  24. #48

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    I think that the acoustic properties of a guitar likely affect the sound as much as the choice of pickup(s). A guitar that has a more rigid neck (laminated maple for instance) would likely be brighter than a similar guitar with a one piece mahogany neck. I have observed this when comparing an Ibanez JSM10 vs an AS153. The setups were about the same as far as pickup distance to the strings, etc. The JSM10 had a one piece sapele neck while the AS153 has a 3 piece laminated neck of maple and mahogany. The AS153 sounds brighter than the JSM10, and it is also brighter when played acoustically.

    In general, the lighter the weight (which usually equates to a less rigid guitar) of a semi hollow body guitar, the greater the ratio of low frequencies to high frequencies (that it produces acoustically), and that sound is transmitted to the pickups which results in a warmer sound. Even a pickup with a good high end response like a Super 58 (low DC resistance) will sound warm in a lighter weight semi (which would tend to damp the higher frequencies), whereas an overwound hot pickup in a heavy (and rigid) semi hollow body guitar will not be as bass "heavy" as one might expect because the weight (and the usual resulting rigidity) of the guitar will have allowed much more high frequency content to reach the pickups (frequencies that the pickups won't be able to totally suppress). I'm guessing that the frequency spectrum of the guitar's body and neck is transmitted to the pickups via both the strings and the guitar body, though the pickup springs might be a limiting component on how much high frequencies reach the pickups from the body itself.

    I know some of my theorizing is just conjecture, but I have observed that lighter weight guitars usually sound warmer than heavier ones, regardless of the pickup used, though the pickups obviously make a difference in how much high end they can transmit.

    I also recently asked Ibanez support about the difference in the different recent model Super 58 pickups (the Custom made in China, the non-stamped Super 58 made in China, and the Japanese made Super 58). The rep I talked to said that both Chinese versions were pretty much identical as far as specs went (just made by a different supplier, and one was stamped while the other was not). He also said that they were the same as the Japanese pickup spec wise, thought the materials used (and quality of construction) was probably higher in the Japanese pickups, though of course that might have to be said to justify the much higher price, true or not.

    What do you all think about the contribution of the guitar's acoustic sound to the resulting amplified sound? I'm curious if there is agreement on how much a factor it plays (I'm thinking it plays a big factor).

  25. #49

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    I should add (to my theory about weight and rigidity affecting the sound of a guitar) that lighter weight usually results in a louder acoustic sound (less mass will vibrate at a greater amplitude for a given amount of energy input via picking the strings), but if the reduced mass is accompanied by lower rigidity (which is often the case), then the louder acoustic sound will be lacking in higher frequencies compared to a more rigid guitar.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    When the S58s have S58-N and S58-B engraved in the bottom right-hand corner, they have Ceramic magnets. I have them in my SV500VLS and I'm not complaining. Sounds warm and clean and nice.
    Are ceramic and Alnico 5 same thing? News to me.