The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Wow, a lot of replies to this thread. I guess that's to be expected and everyone's touting their current amp or "the one that got away." Heck, I'll bite and throw my two cents in, too.

    Equipment is easy to recommend to someone else but real hard to buy based solely on someone else's verbal or written endorsement. After 45 years of playing I understand that completely. Forgive me for using a cliche but I don't know how else to put it. That is, I've owned and played through most everything. Jazz amps? I have a bunch of Polytones and old Fender stuff but for the last 10 years I've used an Acoustic Image 2R with a Raezers Edge "Twin 8" cabinet.

    The AI is great. I love it. It is so nice. It's XLR out is really handy, too.

    Some don't like RE cabinets. I'd just caution making a blanket opinion about them based on a single model's use. The different models all sound different. The Twin-8, Stealth 10, Stealth 12 and New York 8 that I own all sound different with each having its own characteristics. That opinion is made using the same Acoustic Image through all of them. I just tend toward the Twin-8.

    Thanks for letting me get my 2-cents in.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    ArchieTop,

    The OP asked which amp sounded most like the Polytone. We have wandered a bit from that.

    I don't think that the AI/RE Twin 8 sounds much like the Polytone, as it happens. However, in many ways I think it sounds _better_ than the Polytone. The AI is an excellent amplifier. I think you are correct about some people's views concerning the RE cabs, but I suspect that the binomial distribution of views is due to the old vs new cabinets experiences. The old ones sound amazing...the new ones, not so much. This being said, I think that the Twin 8 is the best sounding stand alone guitar cabinet for jazz in the business. It might be the best sounding stand alone cabinet for jazz ever made. Your rig is simply outstanding with an archtop. +1

  4. #53
    Thanks to everyone who replied to my post! I learned a lot and the information helped me to narrow my search.



    A few highlights for me were the Mambo Amp sounds good—but unfortunately not easy amp to audition on a gig here in the USA. Maybe an Evans amp or Wholetone 80—but again a bit hard to audition.



    I was surprised to learn about the Fender Twin tone controls (and other Fender tone controls where setting all controls at 5 does not give you a flat response!). I have played through a Fender Twin and agree it is an awesome amp—but aside from the weight it does not fit into my car. BTW somewhere on YouTube a guy did a compilation of about six different jazz amps in actual live performances—the Fender Twin really sounded nice—wish I could find that video again!


    I think an Acoustic Image with the Twin 8 Raezer Edge might be worth a listen – I think a fellow guitarist in my area has one.



    In addition to the above the Polytone still is high on my list – sounds like the favorite Polytone with the group are the Mini Brutes with the Diamond Tolex. But I still like my Mini Brute V – has the metal grill.

    Again thanks to everyone!
    Bill

  5. #54

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    I think you are referring to the mini S12L. I have just bought one today and hear some people feels it gives a tighter, better sound to the mini brute even though it has the same preamp/power amp and reverb. It looks like it has 2 tweeters in the cab that may make a difference but I'm not sure whether the other models have that too.

  6. #55

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    Hi everyone!

    Today I use a small solid state amp and want advices from you about how to achieve the sound of Polytones. Generally, what amp settings will be useful to sound like Polytones?

  7. #56

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    What amp are you using?

  8. #57

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    Hiwatt Maxwatt G20R. Originally a british-voiced amp but still works great for jazz.


    What amp has the closest sound to a Polytone?-hiwatt-g20r-jpg

  9. #58

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  10. #59

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    I have no experience with Hiwatts, but their tone stacks look similar to Fenders with a lot of emphasis on bass and treble, and where the mid control only serves to cut the mids even more. Polytones and Ampegs have Baxandal tone stacks, which jave a fairly flat response at mid position. Try starting with bass and treble set to zero and mid set to ten. Set your volume where you want it, then dial in a little more bass and treble to taste. If bringing up the treble and bass still leaves you with too much mid, try dialing the mid control down a little at a time. The mid control may tend to reduce some of the bass and treble as well, so you might need to raise your volume control a little as you reduce the mids.

    Speakers can make a huge difference though, and I have no idea how your Hiwatt speaker might compare to a Polytone.

  11. #60

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    0,10,0 is flat on a Fender, Vox,Marshall. ..just like 5,5,5 on a Polytone.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    0,10,0 is flat on a Fender, Vox,Marshall. ..just like 5,5,5 on a Polytone.
    I have seen this many times and it just always makes me wonder how Fender amps are so ubiquitous. Just seems like a terribly limited “starting position” because you can only adjust in one direction. I’ve seen so many “ how to tame the brightness on my blackface” threads across the internet it just astounds me. That along with having no mids control is for me a recipe for an amp I can’t work with. I’ve had one blackface amp and realized it was the antithesis of what I want in an amp.

  13. #62

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    On Fenders with only bass and treble controls, the flat position is bass just a hair above zero, and treble just a hair above zero. There is a middle fixed resistor on these tone stacks that takes care of "mid on ten."

    Try it. It really does put you in the ballpark of an Ampeg or a Polytone on 5,5.

    If you set a Fender Deluxe Reverb on bass = 5, treble = 5, you get a big "smile," i.e., a bass hump and a treble hump. It's not displeasing, but it's the classic "Fender sound."

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    On Fenders with only bass and treble controls, the flat position is bass just a hair above zero, and treble just a hair above zero. There is a middle fixed resistor on these tone stacks that takes care of "mid on ten."

    Try it. It really does put you in the ballpark of an Ampeg or a Polytone on 5,5.
    This is why I eventually gave up on Fenders 20yrs ago. In college, I used to set the treble and bass at around 2, and volume under 3, for Princetons, Deluxe Reverbs, etc, to get what sounded to me to the cleanest and closest to “true” sound of my guitars without knowing much about the circuit design.
    As much as I liked many BF/SF amps in these settings, there was just no headroom for gigs, especially with inefficient speakers.
    When I tried a Mesa Mark I Reissue, I finally was ready to dump the last Fender I owned (a ‘66 Showman Head).
    Now, my Ampegs....that’s a wholenudder story.

  15. #64

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    Yes. In comparison to Fender, Mesa amps are much more midrange oriented. I used to think MB (Mesa Boogie) also meant midrange bark.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    On Fenders with only bass and treble controls, the flat position is bass just a hair above zero, and treble just a hair above zero. There is a middle fixed resistor on these tone stacks that takes care of "mid on ten."
    Deluxe reverb mid resistor is 6800ohms, which amounts to mid control being around 7.
    Attached Images Attached Images What amp has the closest sound to a Polytone?-tone_stack_calculator-jpg 

  17. #66

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    Here's the same tone stack calculator set for Fender, with the bass=0.5, middle = 7 (fixed resistor), and treble=0.5. It is virtually a flat response, i.e., like an Ampeg/Polytone on bass=5, treble=5.
    What amp has the closest sound to a Polytone?-fender-070-jpg

  18. #67

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    Tone stack is flat but I think negative feedback ads some scoop later in the signal path. Speaker is another factor. With a mid-emphasized speaker, it's possible to get a flat eq on a DR. Of course there is always an eq pedal option.

  19. #68

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    Many people speculate online that Fender didn't add mid control on their lower powered amps to cut costs. That doesn't make any sense, there's not that much difference in price between Princeton, DR, Vibrolux Reverb, Super Reverb and Twin. Not a difference that can't be explained by power difference alone (and shipping costs due to size and weight increase).
    I think the reason Fender didn't put mid control to lower powered amps can be easily seen with the tone stack calculator. Turn bass and treble to 0, now adjust mids. You'll see adding mids is just increasing the signal level across the board. It's a headroom issue. Lower powered amps just don't have enough headroom to push the mids higher at reasonable volumes.

  20. #69

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    Sure, you can change the speaker or use a pedal. However, it's pretty easy just to roll the bass and treble controls back. This actually works. Doesn't cost a penny.

    Of course, the bass=5, treble=5 "Fender smile" sounds nice, too.

  21. #70

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    I didn't realize that I had chopped off so much frequency bandwidth in my first pic. Here is the Fender "flat" setting from 10-20KHz. You can see that there is no "scoop" to speak of. The result is achieved by setting the Deluxe Reverb at bass=0.5, treble=0.5.
    What amp has the closest sound to a Polytone?-fender-flat-jpg

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Tone stack is flat but I think negative feedback ads some scoop later in the signal path. Speaker is another factor. With a mid-emphasized speaker, it's possible to get a flat eq on a DR. Of course there is always an eq pedal option.
    It’s true that a tone stack with a flat response doesn’t necessarily mean the amp’s response is flat, as there are other ways to affect frequency response. I guess scooping could be done via negative feedback if the feedback loop filtered out the highs and lows so that only the mids were subject to negative feedback, but I doubt Polytone did that.

  23. #72

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    Among my 6 amps are a Polytone, a Fender and a Mesa. Using the tone controls on the amps I can get a great jazz tone at any volume with all three. The right speaker is an important part if the equation to be sure.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhahn
    This is why I eventually gave up on Fenders 20yrs ago. In college, I used to set the treble and bass at around 2, and volume under 3, for Princetons, Deluxe Reverbs, etc, to get what sounded to me to the cleanest and closest to “true” sound of my guitars without knowing much about the circuit design.
    As much as I liked many BF/SF amps in these settings, there was just no headroom for gigs, especially with inefficient speakers.
    When I tried a Mesa Mark I Reissue, I finally was ready to dump the last Fender I owned (a ‘66 Showman Head).
    Now, my Ampegs....that’s a wholenudder story.
    The Fender tone stack achieves the scooped response by severely attenuating the signal after the first stage of amplification, then allowing treble and bass frequencies to bypass that attenuator via the treble and bass pots. If you prefer low treble and bass settings (for a fairly flat response) but you feel the preamp is lacking in gain, you can remove a lot of that attenuation by increasing the value of the resistor I’ve highlighted below.

    If a Fender amp has a mid control, you could achieve a similar result by putting another resistor in series with the mid pot. The effect of the treble and bass pots will be reduced, so you might find yourself using higher settings than before.

    You could even remove all attenuation by snipping the connection of that resistor to ground (infinite resistance). Then you’d have nearly flat EQ (at that stage, not necessarily the entire amp). The treble and bass controls would then have no effect, so I wouldn’t recommend going to that extreme.

    I should mention that while removing attenuation from the tone stack increases gain in the preamp, it doesn’t necessarily increase headroom. The power section puts an upper limit on headroom. Once the power stage goes nonlinear or clips, more gain in the preamp won’t add headroom.
    Last edited by KirkP; 07-12-2019 at 07:02 PM.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    Among my 6 amps are a Polytone, a Fender and a Mesa. Using the tone controls on the amps I can get a great jazz tone at any volume with all three. The right speaker is an important part if the equation to be sure.
    I agree.
    The cab design and speakers are crucial. I’ve played polytones for a couple of decades, but found them to be usually boxy and, some times too low-fi. Had an old head that was great with a 15” cab till it died on me sometime in the 90’s.

    It’s a dance where every aspect of your entire rig works in harmony to produce your sound: just like playing jazz, the more you understand and can hear, the better you sound.

  26. #75

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    Hi everyone again!

    For two weeks ago I got advices from you about how to achieve a Polytone sound with my Hiwatt solid state amp. I’ve tried several different amp settings this afternoon and feel that flat EQ (0, 10, 0) sounds closest to a Polytone with my amp.

    Thanks everyone for your contributions to this thread,

    Bbmaj7#5#9