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Thanks for mentioning Mambo - another jazz amp I have never heard of! I'll take a look and listen.
Bill
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11-27-2014 12:06 PM
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I have a 70s Polytone with the baxandall tone knobs, an 80s with the same configuration and a 90s with bass, mid, treble. The 90s still sounds great...not like the sonic circuit stuff, but different than the early amps.
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I like the video of the Dutchbopper's guitar with the three amps. I have that model Polytone, too. Great amp. My older Polytones are warmer sounding--I think all Polytone owners would likely agree. The old, diamond boltaflex wrapped ones with only two tone knobs are dark, warm sounding. There is also just the slightest bit of hair in the sound of the old ones, too--largely a function of the preamp ICs that were employed in the design. The op-amps used weren't the cleanest ones around...but they contribute to the overall tone of Polytone amps.
I like the sound of the Henriksen with the 12 a lot. The Mambo with the 10 _really_ sounds good in that demo.
I always thought that the Polytones that had the 10" speaker and the ones that had the 8" speaker were the very best in the MiniBrute line. (The Teeny Brute and the Baby Brute)
At this point, though, I cannot help but to recommend that people buy silver face, hand-wired Twin Reverbs. They are priced at a point such that you expect to find them at the Goodwill store. Folks are so determined to only carry dinky amps that they have given up on the venerable old Twin Reverb. Well, it is virtually THE best sounding jazz amp of all time. They are nearly indestructible, and they are indefinitely repairable. At current prices everybody should have one. I had one in my basement for about ten years until about five years ago. Time to get another.
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At 65 lbs, someone would have to pay me to take a Twin Reverb off their hands.
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I own Polytones from 8 through 15...though my Baby Brute is disassembled on the bench currently. The Baby Brute is the best sounding amp.
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What exactly do you prefer about it? I would think it would be too thin for my taste (or is it not because of the flat tone stack?), love the "thud" the 15 gives each note. Would love to hear one someday.
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There is nothing thin about the tone of the Baby Brute. The 8 " speaker is very full range sounding. Lots of bass frequency. If anything it has slightly less treble (as does the 12 ) than the 15.
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Polytones are a rarity in Australia and there are issues with the voltage on most models. You need an external step down transformer or you have to to have a tech rewire and add a new internal transformer for 230 volts. I only ever see them on local eBay listings every blue moon. Honestly there is nothing better sounding for any sort of clean tones than a Twin. The S/Fs are pretty amazing but you can pickup the red knobs two channel models from the early '90s for next to nothing too although they are pc board construction they're still a great buy. I wouldn't want to take one on public transport but if you have vehicle I can't see what the issue is with the weight. A lot of people today talk like they cant lift anything greater than 10 kilos. I like the Roland Cubes if I'm using the train or bus. The old ones from the '80s can be had for a song.
Last edited by wildschwein; 11-27-2014 at 08:23 PM.
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Originally Posted by Greentone
That is odd, my 12 inch poly has more treble than either of my 15 inch. Not sure what brand speaker is in yours, one of mine is stock and another has a weber speaker.
I checked out a couple of videos of the little ones, they sounded mostly like I expected them to.
Thanks for the reply.
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Mine are stock. It is a matter of vintage. The early period 12s are somewhat darker than the later period 15s, to my ear.
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Ok I am totally with you now. I agree.
I can't seem to find a schematic for the newer models, I wonder if they are a true baxandall eq?.... When I open mine up to find out I will start a thread here.
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I had a new Polytone MB3, and I prefer my old orange Cube60.
The Cube eq is a Fender eq modded, but the buttons are more efficient for jazz, particulary the mid button.
On an audio-electronic forum, it said the old Polytone are better than the new ones because of the OP-amp RC4739.
This op is discontinued because it was considered bad. But, the defects are sometimes a good thing in an amp guitar.
The old ones don't have integrated-circuits in the power amp section, too.
If I need to buy a new amp, I'll go the mambo amp.
It's lightweight, loud, with a good sound, and one can talk with the builder to have some custom things.
I believe he's registered member on our forum.
Does the BabyBrute is loud enough to play in a quartet setting (dr, dbass, gtr, sax) ? Originally Posted by Greentone
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No it is not. It sound nice at low volume and gets to much mid compression if you turn it up. The new Polytonea are way diffrent from the old. When they introduced the sonic surcuit and swithed componets the magic was gone. Originally Posted by nado64
As to the question, what sound like a Polytone from the 70-80 ? The answer is, nothing does. More importantly , nothing responds to your guitar signal as a ploytone does. If you like it, then thats it !
/H
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Sound of The Current Model, Mini-brute ?
My settings for '67 ES-175DN V8, T10, SEG-1040ML, Belden 9778(3m)
1. Listen to the direct sounds at the front of the speaker units.
2. Guitar ; Volume 8. Tone 10, Neck end Picking, Testing phrase and chords.
3. Master (if has) ; Max
4. Volume ; 2.2?3 (Minimum 1 type)
(some types by GAIN, ex ; Peterson P-100G ? Gain 1?2, Polytone Mini brute ?Sonic Circuit Mode Gain 1?2)
5. Bass ; Turn up to the moderate fat, not too much. ex ; '65 RITR 3, '74 SFTR 1(Min), JC-120 0, '66 BFVR 3.5
6. Middle (if has) ; 6
7. Treble ; A touch for coloring, ex ; Fender 1?2, JC-120 2
Guitar:Gibson '67 ES-175DN V8 T10
Strngs:Gibson SEG-1040ML
Shield Cable:Belden 9778
"Amps & Settings" Amps were tilted by legs or stand.Sound check point was flont of speaker(Mic set point)
Fender '66 Vibrolux Reverb(Speakers Jensen C10NS):T2 B3.5
Fender Twin Reveb 100W(Speakers:Rola): T1?2.5 M6?8 B1?2 Master Max(Equal to without master)
Fender Twin Reverb '65 Reissue(Speakers: Eminence):T1 M6?8 B3
Peterson P-100G-Mk?(Speaker:Eminence ME-10):Gain 1?3( Volume use) L/MIn M1/Min M2/-4 H/-2 Master/Max(Equal to without master)
Polytone MIni-Brute?: Master/Max B/+1 M/+2 T/+1 Gain/2?4(Volume use) Contour/10?11( O'clocK) Program/edge Tone color switch/
Center
Peavey Envoy 110(speaker:Bule Marvel)(Ser.G0113936):Modern mode B3 M2 H0
Important things: Balance for solo tone and backing tone.
Like to guitar,not like to electric piano.
(from #1051 "Good Sounds")
Polytone Mini brute 2, Setting Test
Mini-Brute2, Serial Number P-29428
Inst : '67 ES175DN V8 T10, Belden 9778/1.5m(guitar?Sw-box), 2m(Sw-box?Amps),Amp Stand/Ultimate AMP-150
Reference Amps ; '65 Twin reverb and '66 Vibrolux Reverb(C10NS),the two amps switched by footswitch in quickly for comparsion and close match.
The both amps tilted and listen the front sound directly from about 1.5m distance posision.
Setting : Master/Max(Normal Way for Master VR Type, Equal to Without Master VR.
Tonal Color Switch/Normal(Center Posituon)
Gain/3(Use to VR)
Contour/9?11 O'Clock Position
Program/Edge Position
Treble/+1
Mid/+2
Bass/+1
Results : Excelent Jazztone by use to "Sonic Circuit"
Impression : 1E and 2B's traditional Polytone rounded tone by special Eminence.
3G,4D and 5A's 5flet area tone is thin. Dynamics and rezonant are little less, then I try the Sonic Circuit and got the good sounds .
Notice !!! : Side Handle Design !!! , Prevent for the reverb unit troubles,
As well as keeping the "Upright" (in the car etc)
The any good amps has good characteristecs, pull up the goodness and don't over demands.
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Last edited by kawa; 11-28-2014 at 08:05 PM.
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Well virtually the best is of course subjective... without mods I am not a big fan of the stock blackface sound, not enough mids. Easy to mod though. Originally Posted by Greentone
And basements are perfect for Twins. If you gig, they're impossible to use.
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C'mon Jorge, that's not quite true. I used a Twin once for a gig in 1982. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
In fairness, yes they are great amps, and can sound good for jazz if set correctly. Anthony Wilson sounded great with D Krall through one. What should happen is that venues should each buy a twin and bolt it to the floor...
I agree with GT about the 80s diamond poly baby brute being the ( subjectively of course) 'best' sounding poly. It's counterintuitive maybe, but the 8" really does punch through the mix. And it's tiny. Great for duos etc. I like mine so much that when it finally got too tired I had Jon Shaw put a mambo power amp section in. Now it can hang with a quartet.
I think GT is also right that the early RC4739 opamps add a sort of attractive 'warmth' ( probably slight distortion) to that particular circuit. They became obsolete because they were relatively noisy. I found nothing special about the later polys; got rid of them quite quickly.
The closest thing I have found to the older polys are the modern mambo amp, which I'd say is much improved, far more portable and with more power.
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Chris I meant impossible to carry... of course if a club has one they can sound excellent. But gigging with one - taking it out of the house to the car and from the car to the venue and then all over again at the end... It's pretty crazy! I never saw a guitar player entering a jazz club with a Twin under his arm
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Of course I was joking Jorge - although actually, I did once carry a Super Reverb up a flight of stairs to an upstairs wine bar. And down again. We were young, and we were desperate to play anywhere that would let us. I remember the bass player had a huge Acoustic folded horn cab that took 2 people to even lift.
I have a bit more sense now...
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Well, if you're over 50 and have a bad back like me (herniating disc), hauling an 80 lbs amp up and down stairs is a no go. Most of us in the forum are over 50. Originally Posted by wildschwein
I have a SF pre-master volume Pro Reverb, which is tone wise a better choice for jazz to my ears than a Twin which is just radically overpowered for jazz, with two JBLs and it weighs 80 pounds. I couldn't pick it up on a bet without hurting myself. When I was in my 30s I'd haul that amp in and out of 2nd floor apartments, carry it two blocks to the gig from my car, hauling it up or down stairs, etc., without a hint of a problem. in those days I worked in a produce warehouse and hauled 50 lbs sacks of onions and potatoes up and down stairs all day long. Now I spend weeks at a time in pain if I do something dumb. The joys of being an old fart!
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Re: is the Baby Brute loud enough? The power amp is the same as that in the other MiniBrutes of the period. The difference, of course, is that the cabinet is only one cubic foot and the speaker is a high power 8" Eminence driver. At high volume the speaker does indeed compress. I prefer using the amp for club gigs in a trio or quartet setting--or, especially for solo guitar work. I vastly prefer the sound of this amp to the others when the volume is set at or about 4. There is no master volume on the old BabyBrute amps, of course. That's the way I like them, as it happens. I am old school and don't care for master volume knobs.
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I was talking about jazz musicians since this a jazz forum... a Twin is overkill for home use and unpractical to carry to most jazz players I know. A great amp if a club has one (and if you can add some mids for my taste). I also have played hundreds (thousands?) of gigs in my life... some rockers do carry heavy amps. Not jazzers, in my experience
Preventing injury yes, staying healthy is the key (and doing exercise is a big part of that, but there are many other factors like nutrition, breathing, etc...). If you already have your body highly damaged (as so many musicians have) you have to be very careful about any extra pressure you add. I run a lot but some strength exercises only worsen my problems. And I have seen specialists, of course.
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I'm in Melbourne and this year imported 2 Polytones from the States. A Mini Brute 15 and a Mini Brute 12. Originally Posted by wildschwein
It's very easy to rewire the transformers on Polytone's. It is a matter of changing 2 wires on the transformer. Took my tech 20 minutes to do both. No step down tranny required.
I just sold the 12 on Ebay for $800 AU.
I might even sell the 15.
I'm after a tweed type amp.
I have a DRRI but it's not quite what I'm after.
Oh I have a Mambo as well…..on EbayAU
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This is true if you approach the tone stack as something even vaguely approaching 5,5,5 equals flat. That setting actually has a -15 db notch in the frequency response centered at the 500 hz frequency. That is about half-way up the neck on the first string (high E)--mid-range. So, 5,5,5 produces a HUGE mid-range notch--an apparent lack of mids--that you correctly identify. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
OTOH, if you set the Twin Reverb tone stack at 0.5, 8,0.5 you get a truly flat frequency response with rich bass, abundant mids, and ample highs. This setting is so radical, however, that almost no one ever thinks to use it. Try it sometime. It gives the Fender Twin Reverb an Ampeg-like or Polytone-like frequency response, coupled with the Twin Reverb's sonic strengths. A silver face TR has maybe THE richest reverb in history. Its two speakers produce an amply dispersed roomful of rich tone. The headroom of clean sound is legendary, yet there is a tube-associated warmth in the sound that makes most solid-state amps sound clinical by comparison. Finally, the TR can be turned up to fill almost any size venue with great jazz sound.
One more plug: the Twin Reverb sounds like an instrument of the gods when driven by an L5CES.
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I will try it but I boost mids on polytones or ampegs so... I do like mids
I tried a Fender once with a 22n cap and a 50k pot in the mids and it was much better than stock, for my taste.
Anyway I like Twins and L5s but don't think of them as any sort of holy grails... I have other favorites
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jorge,
FWIW, my personal amps of choice are Polytones, a Gibson Lab Series L-5 (made by Bob Moog), and tweed Fender amps. The reason I play tweed amps, these days, after years and years of playing black and silver face Fenders, is that the tweed amps systematically have more mids. The Fender Deluxe (tweed), for example, is just full of mid-range. It sounds great when played with a jazzy archtop guitar.
Still, it is possible, without much knob twisting, to get a warm, jazzy sound from any good black face or silver face Fender amp. You just have to remember that (1) the knobs are highly interactive, (2) they are _not_ a baxandall setup, and (3) "flat" settings (5,5 or 5,5,5) are going to give you the famous mid-range notch associated with the Fender sound. This can be dealt with. On a Deluxe Reverb, for example, just turn the bass to 0.5 and the treble to 0.5. There is a resistor that effectively sets the mid-range as if the mid-range knob were at about five or six. Just cracking the bass and treble knobs will give you a flat setting with lots of mids.
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