The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Here's something fun - I did a guest spot at my friend Tommy Harkenrider's monthly clinic series, all about Charlie Christian. It was sponsored by Nocturne Brain and their "Moonshine '39" amp. I got a chance to test it out, as well as a Slaman DS-250 (their ES-250 copy), and both were really cool.

    Unfortunately no one took video of me playing either one, but they did take a nice video of me playing on my normal rig (ES-150/EH-185), with Tommy comping on the DS-250 and the Nocturne. (it's definitely worth clicking on the "HD" button, too - the audio is much clearer)
    http://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=365506553657685

    Both the Nocturne and the DS-250 did a great job having the fundamental character of their original inspirations.

    The Nocturne's controls are very interactive, and so I was glad Tavo, the designer, was able to walk me through the sounds. The gain and tone controls don't simply work independently, so changing one definitely effects the sweep of the other. Tavo dialed it in to be as close to my EH-185 as possible, and it definitely nailed the inherent character of the amp. Tavo's only complaint was the lack of a field coil speaker to put in the amp, and to be sure, the responsiveness of a field coil was missing. But the Vintage 47 amps also have permanent magnetic speakers, and I really enjoyed playing one of those live. More over, the Nocturne circuit is more directly emulating a Gibson amp, not a Valco, so it's definitely closer, plus it's a higher wattage power amp, so there's more clean headroom. It's definitely something I would recommend.
    Last edited by campusfive; 03-28-2015 at 03:18 PM.

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  3. #27

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    Sweet. Great sounds and incredible playing as always, Jonathan!

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by bananafist
    Reading some of the history of Ampeg on various sources, it seems that when RnR came out they thought it wouldn't last and stuck with the 'outdated' jazz type sound. Sales dived, and so on.
    I know in about 1962 (aged 18) when I was looking at different new amps in London, the Gretsch range with the 'frig' handles were available, Gibson tweeds and UK built Selmer and Watkins. Everybody wanted Fender amps, (v. expensive then in the UK and like hens teeth.) Ampeg were also available but only 'old jazz guys' bought them - no good at all for RnR and not loud enough!….
    Sorry, but this is completely wrong. The company grew like Topsy and prospered tremendously through the 1960s, despite the fact that the owner was a pompous ass who hated distortion. Ampeg, like other companies, had some ups and downs, especially during the brief Uni-Music era, which had little to do with the amps themselves, which were great. Following its acquisition by Magnavox, Ampeg continued to prosper in the 1970s with the success of its large amps (SVT/V-4/V-4B/VT-22/V-2/VT-40), despite changes in ownership and a variety of management difficulties related to ownership by a large corporate parent. What has happened to the brand following its sale in 1968 to MTI is more sad than happy, but it hasn't disappeared. Yet.

    Buy The Ampeg Book, by Gregg Hopkins and Bill Moore, for some of the real story. It's a worthwhile read and a great reference book.
    Last edited by Hammertone; 12-05-2015 at 01:12 AM.

  5. #29

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    I can't give details, but I've received a new entry into the Octal-based, EH-185-clone world. I've been asked not spill the details yet, but it's definitely really interesting.

  6. #30

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    Hammertone - yes, you are correct. I was speaking merely from my perspective as a youngster in London back in the day. My comment on sales diving again was UK related, in that period, and was not meant to imply the company went under.
    I do know that Ampeg continued and thrived, indeed the Rolling Stones used Ampeg along with many others in the 70s, and a bass player friend still has his massively heavy 300SVT bass amp from those days.

    I had a new Gibson Discoverer 2 x 6V6 amp at that time and wish I still had it.

  7. #31

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    I just fixed up an EH-125 to go with my electric L50.
    Swing / Pre-Tweed / Octal Guitar Amps (EH-150, EH-185, Valco)-eh125-jpg

  8. #32

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    The EH-125 I found has 6SJ7 and 6J5 preamp tubes. There was no available schematic, so I drew one for this model.
    This would be an easy amp to copy, (you can get the power transformer from Mercury Magnetics). However, I think most of the tone of my amp, that makes it different from my other amps, is the original speaker.

  9. #33

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    This is a sample from the above EH-125 amplifier with its original speaker.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by bananafist
    Hammertone - yes, you are correct. I was speaking merely from my perspective as a youngster in London back in the day. My comment on sales diving again was UK related, in that period, and was not meant to imply the company went under.
    I do know that Ampeg continued and thrived, indeed the Rolling Stones used Ampeg along with many others in the 70s, and a bass player friend still has his massively heavy 300SVT bass amp from those days.
    I had a new Gibson Discoverer 2 x 6V6 amp at that time and wish I still had it.
    It's all good. Ampeg did well in the '50s, '60's and the '70s. Everett Hull was a jazz guy and was not interested in rock and roll in the least. He wanted clean amps with lots of headroom. Sales literature notwithstanding, his intent was stymied - getting a blue-check Ampeg to distort is usually as simple as the turn of a knob.

    I'm sure that some of the subsequent owners of the brand made money with it as well despite their massive incompetence when it came to either marketing, management, production or some combination of the three. The current owners appear to be taking a break from the stress of producing guitar amps and are focused solely on bass gear. The SVT continues to be the iconic stage bass amp to this day.

  11. #35

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    Hey guys, we've got a new entry in the pre-tweed, octal tube amp world:

    https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guita...tml#post596647

  12. #36

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    Hey guys, after a long wait, the Vintage '47 Amps EH-185-style amp, the VA-185G, is out and AVAILABLE for order. Oh, and they're just under $1000, which is a pretty great price point considering it's handmade in the USA, and it's a pretty rare style of amp to copy - there are only 3 amp makers on earth that have bothered to try to make an amp patterned after the EH-185 (Nocturne Brain, Elektra and Vintage '47).

    VA-185G

    I've had one since November, and I've been absolutely loving it.
    Swing / Pre-Tweed / Octal Guitar Amps (EH-150, EH-185, Valco)-vintage-47-amp-jpg

    Here's one with my Benny Goodman-sextet-style band, the "Grand Slam Sextet". Guitar solo starts at about 0:59.


    Here's one with my main band, the "Campus Five" - the guitar is a little low in the camera mic's mix, but I think you can get an idea of the character. Guitar solo start at about 0:50.


    Here's a demo video I shot for a few friends before the amp was officially released. I A/B it with my 1939 EH-185.
    Last edited by campusfive; 03-20-2016 at 03:41 PM.

  13. #37

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    and tavo of nocturne amps just announced his new bettie blondeshell amp...sort of a cross between the gibby ga amps with metal octal tube driven preamps, and with 8" & 12" speaker design...with a fender bassman styled power section...but with tube options from 5881 to 6v6...and cool lookin gator skin!!

    Swing / Pre-Tweed / Octal Guitar Amps (EH-150, EH-185, Valco)-12825859_1671480269759179_1723690094_n-jpg

    cheers

  14. #38

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    there are guys making cabinets that "look" like EH-185 amps and putting a chassis in the box that is only inspired by the original. The schematic on the internet that has been used by a number of builders, is not completely correct and off enough for all these to not perform like the original. If the producer of the product doesnt care about that, then oh well what can you do?

    You can do a lot, if you care about delivering something from the past into the hands of a player that cant get a real vintage EH-185. You can give them an amp that is 100% based off the real thing. but you dont have to...
    Vintage 47 is very clear they have taken big liberties, and thus.. the consumer needs to understand they are getting an amp that looks very similar to the original but only hints in the general direction.
    This may be all the buyer needs, and to him he may find this to be great.
    Vintage 47 cannot be faulted on this, they are maintaining a bottom line. You cant build small quantities of clone EH-185 under a grand. The cabinets alone cost me $400 from a stateside cabinet builder, and you can check the prices for Merc Mag tone clone transformers. You have to use these if you want the right iron, windings, etc.. there is no other producer of clone EH-185 transformers for small production.
    I will repeat though, Vintage 47 may not be trying to do more than make a fair knod to the original
    amp and I am not slamming their fine product. Its bitchen looking, and sounding.


    In the same breath, I am going to hold up a yellow card and blow my booteek geek whistle. I'll share technicalities:

    just by looking at the pictures, he hasn't got the power supply right. The PT is too small to function like the Gibson circuit. There's no compensation for the affect of the field coil. (The required choke is almost as big as the PT since the entire current of the amp runs through it, so it's not hidden away in the chassis.) Other clues regarding the PS changes are the reported RMS and the GZ34. So all that means the voltages are different but so is the feel of the amp.
    Guess he probably has the wrong reflected impedance on the OT. Remember we measured the original, I've got 3 of the original EH185. The Moonshine is spot on in that regard.

    The reported value out on the net is incorrect.

    This Vintage 47 looks to be a single channel too. So, no it's not an EH-185.

    also..his has 3 out of the 7 the original tubes? He changed the phase inverter, rectifier, and dropped two preamp tubes from the original line up.

    I share this info for other builders that are selling versions of this amp they made from the schematics they found online. Its not right, you gotta take your cues from an EH-185 in hand.

    'm not being haughty or snotty, and I personally am not an amp builder by trade. I am a musician and product designer with an OCD affinity for making products sound as close to the originals as possible.

    Swing / Pre-Tweed / Octal Guitar Amps (EH-150, EH-185, Valco)-10268987_1432557993664042_1435772525_n-jpgMoonshine '39 TV-185

  15. #39

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    Mistakes in the schematic would possibly explain why I never could get the clone I built to work right. I know Gibson was notorious for changing stuff all the time. However, it's not possible for most people to get one in hand. It would be nice if someone could trace the circuit of a particularly nice example of the species.

  16. #40

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    Swing / Pre-Tweed / Octal Guitar Amps (EH-150, EH-185, Valco)-img_5768-jpg

    I dont think any amp should be built by a schematic alone. You have to have originals in hand, and once the sound and response is in your ear, in your spirit..then move forward from there.

  17. #41

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    glad tavo/shamblin stepped in...he's one of the most passionate guys out there about gettin it exactly right...i'm a big fan of that ethic...shows in all his nocturne products


    not to sidetrack this great thread, but just saw jason (^) combs guitars for first time...wow...killer!

    something gretsch vibey about this one...kudos

    Swing / Pre-Tweed / Octal Guitar Amps (EH-150, EH-185, Valco)-professional1-jpg

    cheers

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamblin

    I dont think any amp should be built by a schematic alone. You have to have originals in hand, and once the sound and response is in your ear, in your spirit..then move forward from there.
    amen brother!!!

    haha..

    so true

    cheers

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    glad tavo/shamblin stepped in...he's one of the most passionate guys out there about gettin it exactly right...i'm a big fan of that ethic...shows in all his nocturne products


    not to sidetrack this great thread, but just saw jason (^) combs guitars for first time...wow...killer!

    something gretsch vibey about this one...kudos

    Swing / Pre-Tweed / Octal Guitar Amps (EH-150, EH-185, Valco)-professional1-jpg

    cheers
    Oh my gosh this is incredible!

  20. #44

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    Thanks, guys. If you think that one is Gretschy you'll want to see the white falcon tele I'm about to start on.

  21. #45

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    I hope reviving this thread won’t be frowned upon. I just got a ’46 Zephyr Amp and I am pretty excited. It sounds fab, looks great, and weighs little. Did not cost me an eye either. Original FC speaker, possibly original tubes, largely original circuit (with electrolytic caps replaced).

    Details here: 1946 Epiphone Electar Zephyr Amp

    I am wondering: would I do well to hoard a little stock of replacement tubes? The power tubes and rectifier are still in production (6L6 G and 5U4 G) but the preamp and PI tubes are not (6SJ7). What do you octal amp fiends do?

  22. #46

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    Yeah, that's exactly right hoard some replacement tubes. Thankfully, those odd-ball octal tubes aren't actually very expensive, and you can expect many years, if not decades, of faithful use, so long as you aren't banging them around.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by campusfive
    Yeah, that's exactly right hoard some replacement tubes. Thankfully, those odd-ball octal tubes aren't actually very expensive, and you can expect many years, if not decades, of faithful use, so long as you aren't banging them around.
    Great. If anyone has any suggestions as to which ones to get, I’m all ears. Here in Europe I see lots of Russian-made tubes (Svetlana, RUS Tung-Sol, Sovtek…), and very little RCA, Sylvania, Hytron, Tung-Sol (US)…

  24. #48

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    I suppose these fall into the "etc." category.
    Old Bogen, Masco, Stromberg-Carlson and other ancient PA heads are very inexpensive and are certainly easy enough to get fixed/modified/rebuilt. This old Bogen Challenger CH30 was not rebuilt, just modified for guitar, and sounds pretty good through various cabs.
    Attached Images Attached Images Swing / Pre-Tweed / Octal Guitar Amps (EH-150, EH-185, Valco)-challenger-ch30-jpg Swing / Pre-Tweed / Octal Guitar Amps (EH-150, EH-185, Valco)-challenger-ch30_4990-jpg 

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone
    I suppose these fall into the "etc." category.
    Modified for guitar from its purpose as a PA head, it sounds pretty good through various cabs.
    I’d say it belongs in the "extremely cool” category!

    BTW: in my frantic search for octal tubes I’ve discovered that New Sensor (EHX, Sovtek, Tung-Sol…) still makes them as well as other old-style tubes. For instance

    - 6SJ7: Sovtek
    - 6SN7 GT: EHX, Sovtek, Tung-Sol
    - 6L6G (“big bottle”): Tung-Sol (they say it’s up-rated “for improved performance and reliability” and I am wondering whether my ’46 Zep would like it, but still…)
    - 5U4G: Sovtek

    I still look at NOS stuff as it does not cost much more, but I find it comforting that these tubes are still in production somewhere.

  26. #50

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    This thread is so awesome!
    I've been scanning ebay for quite a while now for stuff that might get me in the octal-ballpark. I just stumbled across this old amplifier, which I think doesn't look too bad, but I know next to nothing about electronics. In the description it says it needs a new power cable.
    Anyone of you have some experience with something like that?

    Alter Verstarker (Vorkrieg), Rohrenverstarker 33 cm T x 36 cm H x 40 cm B | eBay

    I think it's an old amplifier for some radio/phono application.

    Am I right assuming that's a field coil speaker inside there?

    I'm currently finishing law-school, and therefore on a really tight budget. Therefore I can't afford the "nicer" stuff at the moment.

    Paul