DeArmond Rhythm Chief 1100 original vs remake

**pingu** · 08-14-2014, 10:38 AM

hello guitarists

anyone been able to compare these two ?
and anyone know where i could
get hold of a reissue 1100 yet ?
(maybe they're not gonna sell these
separately ever .... silly they'd sell a bunch
of these if they were say 80 or 90 bucks)

**pingu** · 08-14-2014, 10:40 AM

ps I like the sound but I don't wanna pay out for an original ...
they're too rich for my blood !

**Greentone** · 08-14-2014, 10:48 AM

Second-best pickup ever made (for archtops), IMO.

First: 1937 Seth Lover cobalt magnet pickup we now know as the "Charlie Christian." In good shape (some of them have weak magnets, at this point, which can be remagnetized) this pickup sounds sublime.

I, too, would enjoy a comparison of the new and old 1100.

**entresz** · 08-14-2014, 09:23 PM

I wish they would offer the reissues separately. They're the perfect aesthetic and sonic match for a 40's or 50's style archtop.

Pete Biltoft at Vintage Vibe guitars is making a DeArmond style floating pickup for me- it's in a Johnny Smith style cover, but internally its like a DeArmond. I'm looking forward to get that. It's going to be put on my Gretsch G400 Synchromatic.

**Archtop Guy** · 08-14-2014, 09:59 PM

Entresz, I thought I saw a reissue on Feebay last week. New for like $500.

**Danny W.** · 08-14-2014, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Worth over a grand today.

I probably paid $25 for it and maybe $100 for the guitar. Might have sold them both for $300.

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Well, not so sure about the pickup. But you certainly should have done a better job preserving the photo!!

That was from a Polaroid "Swinger," the worst camera they, or anyone for that matter, ever made. It likely came out of the box looking like that.

Danny W.

**pingu** · 08-15-2014, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Archtop Guy

Entresz, I thought I saw a reissue on Feebay last week. New for like $500.

crazy price ..... did it sell for that ?

**pingu** · 08-15-2014, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by entresz

I wish they would offer the reissues separately. They're the perfect aesthetic and sonic match for a 40's or 50's style archtop.

Pete Biltoft at Vintage Vibe guitars is making a DeArmond style floating pickup for me- it's in a Johnny Smith style cover, but internally its like a DeArmond. I'm looking forward to get that. It's going to be put on my Gretsch G400 Synchromatic.

I believe the 1000 non adjustable red PU
had two coils , one covering the six strings
and an extra coil covering just the top two
strings , to give more ooph to the plain strings
Which could mean they're difficult to
re-manufacture now
but I could be wrong on the detail of this
and I don't know if the Guild recreations
have one or two coils
........
anyone got good info on this ?
.......
I read somewhere that the adjustable 1100 had just one coil

**snoskier63** · 08-15-2014, 08:58 AM

As Guild was recently sold to Cordoba they are currently working on getting production up to speed, which should be very soon based on everything I have been hearing on LTG COM. As an owner of several Guild guitars, including the new Artist Award with the 1100 Rhythm Chief, I feel that Guild guitars compare favorably with any other guitar at the same price. I have been in contact with Cordoba regarding their plans to continue Guilds custom shop line of American Patriarch guitars, and was assured that the line will continue, although the specific models that will be made were not specified. If Guild/Cordoba continue to produce the Artist Award, which I hope they do, I would bet that the Rhythm Chief 1100 will be offered for sale. Those with a vintage pup may want to sell soon, because if that doesn't happen value of the vintage 1100 will likely plummet.

**Patrick2** · 08-15-2014, 09:15 AM

[QUOTE=snoskier63;451875]As Guild was recently sold to Cordoba they are currently working on getting production up to speed, which should be very soon based on everything I have been hearing on LTG COM. As an owner of several Guild guitars, including the new Artist Award with the 1100 Rhythm Chief, I feel that Guild guitars compare favorably with any other guitar at the same price. I have been in contact with Cordoba regarding their plans to continue Guilds custom shop line of American Patriarch guitars, and was assured that the line will continue, although the specific models that will be made were not specified.

If Guild/Cordoba continue to produce the Artist Award, which I hope they do, I would bet that the Rhythm Chief 1100 will be offered for sale. Those with a vintage pup may want to sell soon, because if that doesn't happen value of the vintage 1100 will likely plummet.

I think you've got this exactly backwards. The original Rhythm Chief 1100 will more than likely go up in value, not down. Think back to what drove the original Gibson PAF Humbuckers way way up in value . . and why double whites are far more desireable and therefore more expensive than zebras or double blacks. As each new variant was introduced, the perception was that it wasn't as good as the originals. There are still people out there who swear they can hear the difference between a double white PAF and a zebra. Then, when all of the different dual coil "Humbucker" type pups were put on the market by people like DiMarzio, Duncan, Schaller . . and many other maunfactures, the perception was . . "they don't sound nearly as good as the original Gibson PAFs". So, the original PAFs just sky-rocked up to rediculous prices.

More than likely the same will happen with the reintroduction of a new Rhythm Chief 1100. It will be *perceived* as not having the magic of the orignal. Therefore, the originals will be in higher demand and the price will go up.

**rpguitar** · 08-15-2014, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by snoskier63

I would bet that the Rhythm Chief 1100 will be offered for sale. Those with a vintage pup may want to sell soon, because if that doesn't happen value of the vintage 1100 will likely plummet.

Don't count on it. That didn't exactly happen to the PAF humbucker when people started cloning it.

[Edit: Whoops, Patrick already said that!]

**Greentone** · 08-15-2014, 10:27 AM

+1 on Patrick2's analysis of the 1100 pickup market

If snoskier63 was talking about the value of the Artist Award guitar, it's not as clear, IMO. The overall archtop market is still in a funk. It's anybody's call as to why, but my take is that the demographic doesn't favor the archtop. I think Phil-X's videos at Fretted Americana are emblematic. He has absolutely no idea how to coax good sounds out of an archtop. Just listen to him flail away on one of the precious few remaining Lloyd Loar-signed L5 guitars. Yet, this is very much what young people do when they pick up an acoustic archtop for the first time. I know...I first played one when I was a teenager, and I tried to bang out power chords on it. THEN, I bought a pre-WWII Gibson when I turned 18. I took it home and my father said, "no, that's not quite how it's done." That was 40 years ago.

The generation that could show young people how to approach archtop guitars is aging or gone. I think the archtop market is largely Baby Boomers trading guitars amongst themselves. (not exclusively...largely) In a dozen years or so that group is likely to downsize and take _one_ guitar per into condos/assisted living.

Meanwhile, it looks like the Millennials are playing flattops and Stratocasters, from what I can tell.

All of which is to say that the prices of Guild archtops could remain flat, or tank, no matter what Cordoba decides. Loar L5s, D'Angelico New Yorkers, D'Aquistos, Strombergs...they may be safe no matter what. Otherwise, does anyone else picture a bright future for the archtop guitar? (Sorry to be a bummer.)

Heck, I don't know that I would be playing archtop were it not for the fact that my first instructor played a D'Angelico, and that both my parents played and listened to guitar.

**snoskier63** · 08-15-2014, 10:36 AM

You could be right. Regardless of whether or not the new version is as good as the original (or better) there will always be those that insist vintage is better sonically, and often without comparing the two. There will always be a market for vintage gear, and some of that gear may still be very good. My take on it, however, is that items like a Rhythm Chief pickup are not made with any unusual materials that are no longer available in their original form. Production methods have improved greatly in the last 60 years, so if these new pups are being used on a new 6-7k guitar, it is my guess, without having directly compared the two, that the new version is at least comparable to the old. Particularly when an original 1958 JS Artist Award was dissected in producing this new guitar and pickup. What could make a big difference is if the new model gets put on the Guitars of some artists that carry weight in the jazz community. Then people will have to have the new one. Time will tell.

To greentone, I was just referring to the pickup. As much as I love and respect Guild guitars, only a select few have become collectable. The JS Artist Award, and the Hoboken-made X-500 and Aristocrat are three of them, but I was just speaking of the pickup.

**Greentone** · 08-15-2014, 11:15 AM

Gotcha.

Guild should have been able to reproduce the pickup...probably did. Love to get my hands on one.

**Patrick2** · 08-15-2014, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by snoskier63

You could be right. Regardless of whether or not the new version is as good as the original (or better) there will always be those that insist vintage is better sonically, and often without comparing the two. There will always be a market for vintage gear, and some of that gear may still be very good. My take on it, however, is that items like a Rhythm Chief pickup are not made with any unusual materials that are no longer available in their original form. Production methods have improved greatly in the last 60 years, so if these new pups are being used on a new 6-7k guitar, it is my guess, without having directly compared the two, that the new version is at least comparable to the old. Particularly when an original 1958 JS Artist Award was dissected in producing this new guitar and pickup. What could make a big difference is if the new model gets put on the Guitars of some artists that carry weight in the jazz community. Then people will have to have the new one. Time will tell.

To greentone, I was just referring to the pickup. As much as I love and respect Guild guitars, only a select few have become collectable. The JS Artist Award, and the Hoboken-made X-500 and Aristocrat are three of them, but I was just speaking of the pickup.

In response to the highlighted area above, the new replicas very well could be just as good as the originals, possibly even better. That's why my original post on this specifically stated "perceived to be better". We've all heard the saying that "perception is reallity". Again, I reference the replicas of original PAFs. People have gone through painstaking time and financial challenges to replicate virtually everything on the originals. The wire, the winding process, to poly used to make the bobbins, the wood spacer, AlNiCo variants of magnets, length of magnets. In the case of the ThroBacks replicas . . they are actually using the very same winding machine that was in the basement of Gibson's then factory at 225 Parsons Street. The same machine that Seth Lover himself used in 1957. Yet, the purists say the originals are still better. When asked "how could that be? We made them exactly the same way as they were originally made . . . how could they be different or not as good as the originals?" Some "experts" actually stated that it's because the wire in the originals had aged for half a century. Which is even more ridiculous when you consided the fact that the tone everyone fell in love with was first recorded back when these PAFs were relatively new. lolol Then, it was the fact that the magnets had aged and mellowed . . which really menat that that had lost some of their power. So, magnets were made and charged to the same levels as "aged" magnets from the originals. "No . . . the old ones still sound better because the aging process was over time and not accelerated".

So, I think people who really want to hear and perceive a difference in original 1100s as being better than newer replicated (cloned) ones will do so . . . for very much the same reasons that some people swear that an original Stradivarius sounds better than any of the very well made and very high end violins made hundreds of years later.

**pingu** · 08-15-2014, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

In response to the highlighted area above, the new replicas very well could be just as good as the originals, possibly even better. That's why my original post on this specifically stated "perceived to be better". We've all heard the saying that "perception is reallity". Again, I reference the replicas of original PAFs. People have gone through painstaking time and financial challenges to replicate virtually everything on the originals. The wire, the winding process, to poly used to make the bobbins, the wood spacer, AlNiCo variants of magnets, length of magnets. In the case of the ThroBacks replicas . . they are actually using the very same winding machine that was in the basement of Gibson's then factory at 225 Parsons Street. The same machine that Seth Lover himself used in 1957. Yet, the purists say the originals are still better. When asked "how could that be? We made them exactly the same way as they were originally made . . . how could they be different or not as good as the originals?" Some "experts" actually stated that it's because the wire in the originals had aged for half a century. Which is even more ridiculous when you consided the fact that the tone everyone fell in love with was first recorded back when these PAFs were relatively new. lolol Then, it was the fact that the magnets had aged and mellowed . . which really menat that that had lost some of their power. So, magnets were made and charged to the same levels as "aged" magnets from the originals. "No . . . the old ones still sound better because the aging process was over time and not accelerated".

So, I think people who really want to hear and perceive a difference in original 1100s as being better than newer replicated (cloned) ones will do so . . . for very much the same reasons that some people swear that an original Stradivarius sounds better than any of the very well made and very high end violins made hundreds of years later.

I agree with your analysis of the vintage thing Patrick2......
I'm just hoping those responsible at Guild for re designing the new 1100
made a good PU and that its priced fairly

What I mean is ..............
there's Kent Armstrongs and theres Kent Armstrongs

**powerwagonjohn** · 08-15-2014, 02:22 PM

Perception may have a lot to do with it as the new de Armonds are made in S Korea. Some will say there is no way they could sound as good as an old US made pick up.
thanks john

**uburoibob** · 08-15-2014, 08:59 PM

Here is a quick cleanup on the L-4 photo:

DeArmond Rhythm Chief 1100 original vs remake-175cleanedup-jpg

**Drifter** · 08-16-2014, 12:41 AM

Frankly I don't care what a reissue does to the price for the original. I just want the reissue to be good sounding, available and affordable. Better sooner than later.

**Hammertone** · 08-16-2014, 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

... Again, I reference the replicas of original PAFs. ... the purists say the originals are still better. ...

I prefer to view it as "the investors say the originals are still original." This applies to PAFs, Les Pauls, Stradivaris, and more. Just follow the money - most of the rest is simple BS.
-----
It occurs to me that FMI may have sold the Guild trademark to Cordoba, but did they sell the Dearmond trademark as well? Fools if they did. I suppose they could license it if they wanted to do so. Much like the Gertsch family has not sold the Gertsch trademark, just licensed it to Fender.

**powerwagonjohn** · 08-16-2014, 09:47 AM

I thought the guitar was a L-4C, but I could be wrong.
Thanks John

**Danny W.** · 08-16-2014, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by powerwagonjohn

I thought the guitar was a L-4C, but I could be wrong.
Thanks John

You are right--an ES-175 wouldn't need the floater.

Danny W.

**uburoibob** · 08-16-2014, 09:55 AM

Sorry, it was late when I returned from dinner and finished the cleanup of the photo. Perhaps one bourbon too many. I've changed the caption to read L-4...

Bob

**Patrick2** · 08-16-2014, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Hammertone

I prefer to view it as "the investors say the originals are still original." This applies to PAFs, Les Pauls, Stradivaris, and more. Just follow the money - most of the rest is simple BS.
-----
It occurs to me that FMI may have sold the Guild trademark to Cordoba, but did they sell the Dearmond trademark as well? Fools if they did. I suppose they could license it if they wanted to do so. Much like the Gertsch family has not sold the Gertsch trademark, just licensed it to Fender.

What's a Gertsch?? ;-)

I acknowledge and respect your preference of view. But, it's inaccurate . . ("and it's wrong too!!"). Not all collectors are investors. Many collectors buy what that want purely as an indulgence as needed/wanted for their collections. Sometimes it's with the full understanding that they'll lose mone on the resell. So, it's not always about investing.

**Patrick2** · 08-16-2014, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by pingu

I agree with your analysis of the vintage thing Patrick2......
I'm just hoping those responsible at Guild for re designing the new 1100
made a good PU and that its priced fairly

What I mean is ..............
there's Kent Armstrongs and theres Kent Armstrongs

I agree with all that. Now, here's the other aspect of getting a new 1100 re design. Kent Armstrong is a wizard. You could buy a new 1100 and if you didn't like it, for what ever reason . . you could send it off to Kent and tell him what you wanted it to be, tone wise. He could easily rebuild it with his "innards". Then, you'd have the vintage Rhythm Chief 1100 look/vibe . . and tone to die for.