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Hi,
I'm starting to play with a quartet—piano, drums, bass—and we're doing standards from the swing era. We've been invited to play in a smallish restaurant/bar. I'm struggling a bit with amp settings. While I play an occasional solo (and thus need to turn volume up every now and then), in general I'm playing behind the singing piano player. The problem is that I feel either too dull or to light/loud. Not sure how the unamplified genius, Freddie Green, ever did it, but getting the guitar to really be a relatively rhythm instrument but still cut through even with amplification is tough. At the moment, I'm playing my hollowbody Samick HF650 through an old Ampeg reverberocket (the big one) with the mids turned up, treble and bass pretty low. Any suggestions from your experience?
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03-21-2014 04:39 PM
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My suggestion is to not restrict your analysis to amp settings. You need to think about strings, pick, technique.
You're not going to sound like Freddie King using an amp and magnetic pickups, btw.
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You might sound like Freddie King, but not Freddie Green.
Originally Posted by coolvinny
Danny W.
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Standards from the swing era, a singing piano player, bass, drums, and you amplify your guitar? Instead of trying to model your sound on Freddie Green, perhaps listen to Oscar Moore with the Nat King Cole Trio? Just a thought.
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I don't say this often, but "lol" seems appropriate here. Originally Posted by Danny W.
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Two or three notes chords on the g and d string (low e string too of you use three notes). No more than 3rd and 7th are needed. No extensions. No alteration. 5th can easily be omitted. The tonic can be omitted (taken care of by the bassist). If using an amp, I brush the strings with the thumb (no pick, I find the sound too massive for this kind of playing). Volume about as loud as the hihat. You are not to be "heard above the band". You are to blend in with the rhythm section - be felt more than heard. And oh yes, I think your amp settings are fine - mids up and bass and treble down. If you are to play in Freddie Green style, you may consider to unplug your guitar and mike it instead - or maybe not mike it at all depending on how loud the group is playing. If both the piano, bass and guitar has to be miked in order not to be drowned out by the drummer, it's the drummer who plays too loud. Of course using a PA system in a larger room is another matter. But I hate noisy drummers in this kind of setting which should be light and elegant.
As Freddie Green once said, the rhythm guitar is "a part of the drum set, a hihat in Bb or a snare drum in Ab" - but of course what the guitarist plays must fit the changes. And good voice leading to provide a nice "walking guitar" sounds good. Just don't make it sound so good that you steal the show, while a soloist is playing.Last edited by oldane; 03-22-2014 at 01:08 PM.
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Thanks for all your suggestions. Oldane, I've got many of the three-note chords down and wish I could operate my thumb efficiently enough to eschew a pick. I'll try a really thin one and see if it gets a somewhat brighter sound. Thanks for the suggestion about Oscar Moore, Eddie Lang—nothing like the artistry of that group, for sure. Our piano player probably sounds a bit closer to Nat King Cole than I ever will to Oscar Moore, but that just means there's more stuff to learn!
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I saw Freddie Green with the Basie band. I sure as hell didn't hear him when the band was going. You could hear him a bit during solos and ballads but once the shout chorus started the guys on the far side of the band couldn't tell if he showed up or stayed on the bus. Originally Posted by Scot63
It works similarly when we play with an amp. What we hear is not what someone who is ten feet away hears, and not what someone thirty feet away hears. So if you're aiming to please yourself it will probably sound muddy to most of the audience once the cymbals are working. But if you want to cut through the cymbals it'll sound too zingy to you, right next to the amp. And there's always going to be somebody whose seat is precisely positioned to catch only the crappiest noise your amp could possibly produce.
That's life, Scott. Playing live is about sonic compromises and musical excellence, hopefully in reverse order.
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My best advice is to get a 30' cord and sound-check a tune standing way out in front of the band. You're probably going to find that you sound pretty darn good already.Last edited by Sam Sherry; 03-22-2014 at 01:30 PM.
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Here are some suggestions:
http://www.campusfive.com/swingguita...for-swing.html
But, basically:
1) roll the volume knob down so you can play hard as you would if you were playing acoustically
2) use the standard 3-note Freddie Green voicings, but don't actually hit or fret the low E, and just concertrate on the D and G strings.
3) really emphasize "short, fat little quarter notes." Since electric guitar sustains so much, you have to cut them off - the decay of the guitar won't do it for you.
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Herb Ellis who in my opinion was one of the best background and rhythm guitarists said unless playing a ballad use only 2 and 3 note chord voicings and roll the volume right back on the guitar when playing rhythm, the guitar should barely be audible and don't use short choppy right/left hand strokes.
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Point taken, Sam Sherry. Amplification is sort of the poisoned apple; once you've bitten of it, you can't really turn back. Maybe the key is to really think of the guitar as back in the rhythm section, which I think a bunch of you are saying.
Jonathan, believe or not, I've been watching/listening to some of the long performances your band has at the Cicada Club on youtube as inspiration the last couple of days. The band is really great, love Hilary Alexander, and your retro style is top notch. Not to mention your playing, which has led me to explore your blog. You've already helped immensely!
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Part of the challenge here is that whilst you can easily emulate 30s/40s guitar set-up - you can guarantee that the drummer won't be using animal hide skins - and as such will automatically be playing with more volume and cut through the ensemble sound.
It might make sense to discuss this issue with the band - how will you collectively balance and blend the individual sounds at your disposal to get an overall sound.
All the great units whether trio, quartet, big band etc. paid attention to these issues
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Further to Mr Stout's advice, try an acoustic simulator pedal. That'll help.
I'm using the 'Unplugged' setting on my Digitech iStomp, apparently that's a good one.
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Oh I wish, I'd love to be able to do that. (Play with vintage drums I mean - there are some sets and dedicated drummers knocking around....) Originally Posted by rkwestcoast
It's not the band that's the issue anyway. It's the level of the audience in my case.
I still think we could play quieter though - musicians are often worried about being too soft. Whereas I reckon if they have to strain to listen, that's much more powerful (unless it's a party gig or something, in which case, forget it)
And drummers using f***ing ride cymbals. Bane of my life.Last edited by christianm77; 03-27-2014 at 11:37 PM.
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And another thing!!!! :-)
I play in a group without piano. Therefore the leader often wants me louder than I want to be to help 'pad out the sound.'
The problem is that the amplification of the guitar goes from being a subtle lift of a few DB's to a much more electronic sound - with all the problems with acoustic amplification that entails (and no D-Holes and Archtops do not want to be amplified.)
It also feels wrong because the drummer uses a large dynamic range - so I'll find myself playing absurdly lightly in a quiet bit and be inaudible in a loud bit (the latter is OK with me.) Bassplayer has the same issue. The problem is that this is that way the bandleader has asked the drummer to play.
And then - the solos! I'm often given solos in the band, which is nice. The problem is that while drummers are generally programmed to drop down for a bass solo the guitar is labelled in people's heads as a loud instrument. So now you have to fight the drums.
Somehow despite playing a quiet instrument that is hard to amplify, it is apparently my fault that I am not loud enough and have problems with feedback.
It's usually at this point that I wish I'd ignored my bandleader request for an acoustic rhythm sound and brought an electric. Which funnily enough most people do.
It's a mug's game. Still beats being a bandleader though haha....
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I played with a proper Big Band for a while. My bandmates said after I'd been playing with them for a while that the rhythm guitar made the band swing more, even when you couldn't hear everything that I did.
When I stopped going, I was inundated with calls from people asking me to come back. They couldn't always hear what I was doing, they said - but they sure could tell when I wasn't there!
I considered that to be a success on my part.
What I'm trying to say (rather than just appearing to congratulate myself on the job I did) is that your contribution will often be perceived rather than clearly heard; but if not there, it will be missed.Last edited by mangotango; 03-28-2014 at 12:17 PM.
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I always control the volume difference between rhythm and lead with my hands, NOT the volume knob on the guitar! This is from my gypsy jazz playing where there is no volume knob on the acoustic guitar
I keep the volume on the guitar up all the way and shade the tone to where I want it for the room.
Use the side of the pick at an angle of about 4:30 to the strings when playing rhythm, and play softly, but not timidly. When you hit the stings it should feel like hitting a solid surface, not like individual strings. Aim for the middle 4 strings, you'll still get plenty of the low E and A strings in there regardless. There should be a sort of "brushing" sound to the pick hitting the strings. This is much easier to demonstrate in person
When it's time to solo, rotate the pick to play with the point and put a bit of muscle into it. Use rest strokes as often as possible. Use as heavy a pick as you can stand. I use a gypsy 3.5mm Wegen as my lightest pick. On my gypsy guitar I use a whooping 7mm pick. I call it the man-pick
Give yourself some treble on the amp, but keep the bass really low. Especially with humbuckers this can help with the mud.
In addition to Jonathon Stouts excellent advice, I like this guy:
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I'd like to weigh in on an important part of guitar skill: accompanying a band. IMO, you need to distinguish big band playing from small combo work ... they are quite different styles. When I used DeArmond "monkey on a stick" pick-ups in the 70s, I noticed my control box had a switch for "Rhythm/ Solo". Interestingly, the Rhythm setting was trebly, the Solo setting, full and bassy. There's a reason for that .... you want solos to sound lush and mid-rangy and rhythm chords to cut through the mix.
It helps to think of a big-band guitarist as adding harmonic content to the upright bass. The bass notes may be hard to hear in terms of absolute pitch, but the thump makes the swing. Add a guitar, and the pitch is reinforced in a range that's easier to identify through the thick big-band sound.
Amp settings in a combo would be different than with a big band, and the guitar duties, style-wise, would also require different approaches, IMO. I'd set a tube amp to have a little sparkle, to be heard along side the piano. Maybe start with Bass on 5, Mid = 4 and Treble at 5. With the amp on the floor, bass will be reinforced. On a chair, crank the bass up a bit.
Try to get a digital field recorder (under $100) or even an old cassette recorder, and record a performance from the middle of the audience. That will tell you a lot about your settings. Adjust from there.Last edited by SuperFour00; 04-11-2014 at 04:18 PM.
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