The Concept of a Jazz Guitar Amp

[L4CESN]

I admittedly come from more of a rock background, as well as from a recording studio perspective, where I view a guitar amp as being a large proportion of the tone equation of a guitar setup. I have a variety of amps and attenuators that will get me various flavours of British and American tones.

I typically plug my Archtop into a Tone King Metropolitan, which can do Fender blackface and tweed type tones. However, for the first time, I'm considering getting an amp solely for my archtop, which has a set in humbucker. It's certainly not out of need, perhaps it's more curiosity.

Do you think the concept of a jazz guitar amp is about uncoloured amplification or representation of an acoustic instrument (albeit with a magnetic pickup), or do you think the jazz guitar world has it's own tradition of tones (polytone for instance), where the amp is imposing a large proportion of the tone?

Some people choose certain amps for convenience or reliability. However, I'm interested in talking purely about tones here.

[jzucker]

i think jazz guitar tone is not much different that clean guitar tone in other genres. The fender clean tone is still the best tone IMO. It's just a matter of convenience and reliability. I'd rather be playing through a fender tube amp but my back likes it when I play through a 22lb transistor amp.

[D.G.]

I'm not fond of the sound of archtop guitars played through acoustic amps. I'm actually not fond of acoustic guitars played through acoustic amps. Ok, let's face it, I don't like most acoustic amps period

For my money, tweed/blackface tones are where it's at, but then I'm a Fender man through and through.

[jorgemg1984]

Tweeds have also played an important role in jazz (as blackfaces). And also the flat "jazz amp" polytone sound. These three would cover most sounds I believe...

[jzucker]

I'm with Jack, Fender cleans for me. The Polytone sound has an important place in jazz history (at least post 1969), but I find it loses enough high end that alot of the player's technique gets obscured. That's fine if you're playing straight 8ths and picking almost every note like Concord Records masters like Joe Pass, Herb Ellis or Barney Kessell. But you can't get the hammer ons, slurs, or picking techniqe in the Burrell or Grant Green sound. I'd argue alot of Wes' style is lost too (note how the solid states came out on the Creed Taylor records, not live gigs like Smokin' or the early Riverside recordings). And, wven with the Concorde guys, I prefer their earlier tone when they played inconvenient tube amps.

I like the Fender Tweed sound, but we're hearing that on studio recordings, not sure how much of a struggle getting enough volume and headroom would be in a gig situation. Especially with modern loud drummers, amped basses, and keyboards. Hard to go vintage if the rest of the band is fighting you. And nobody but guitarists cares about this stuff.

i agree, the polytone tone is dark and life imitating art took a turn for the worse with all the dull, lifeless jazz tones that emanated from that branch of the jazz guitar tone tree.

However, given that tube amps require more maintenance and are heavy, etc., i'm willing to trade some of that livelyness for the convenience

[jorgemg1984]

Life does not imitate art, it imitates bad television.

[Silentwiz]

Quilter does a fine fender tone

[jzucker]

i'd be curious your thoughts on the quilter. I'll do a clip of mine over the weekend.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I like the Fender Tweed sound, but we're hearing that on studio recordings, not sure how much of a struggle getting enough volume and headroom would be in a gig situation. Especially with modern loud drummers, amped basses, and keyboards. Hard to go vintage if the rest of the band is fighting you. And nobody but guitarists cares about this stuff.

Mic it.

[Jim Soloway]

Mic it.

That assumes a PA system. I don't see those in a lot of jazz situations.

[Hammertone]

Well, if anyone knows what the hell the concept was here (the Polytone, not the SWR), I'm all ears:

[Jabberwocky]

My own take on the jazz guitarist's ethos is "plug 'em in where you find 'em". That is, work with what you have where you find them. Jazz guitarists are forced by circumstance to use the house amp so have developed a pragmatic approach to amplification. That is my interpretation of the jazz guitar tone in the real world.

For better or worse, the house amp has usually been a Fender tube amp of some sort or a Roland JC 120. So, that is the jazz guitar sound.

Clean. Clear. Undistorted. Good to go.

Sort of a "straight wire with gain" approach.

[coolvinny]

Well, if anyone knows what the hell the concept was here (the Polytone, not the SWR), I'm all ears: (image of amp in a suitcase)

Polytone amps were created by a jazz accordion player. True story. So the "concept" there is probably that if an accordion basically packs into a suitcase, why not the amp too...

[Jazz_175]

Quilter does a fine fender tone

Which one, Aviator or MicroPro model?

[jzucker]

Mic it.

about 5% of the jazz gigs I've ever done are in a club that has a house system.

[jzucker]

Which one, Aviator or MicroPro model?

the aviator is closer to fender but it's really not close. Better than most though.

[TheGrandWazoo]

Jazz and rock guitarists share the sysiphian dream of searching for the "ultimate tone". "If I only had that amp/guitar then I'd sound just like [insert your favorite guitarist here]". Instead, experiment, try new things. The musicians you love did. Fender is a great amp because they did something different than what those older Vaco, Gibson amps did. Your standard Fender tube amp is going to give you a certain sound. Poly tone will give you another. If I didn't take a chance I wouldn't have found the Ampeg I have which I love. Would I be happy with a DRRI? You bet, but I decided that chasing a dream was not as important to me as chasing practice time. Also, you'd be surprised at just how important rolling off the treble on the tone knob is at finding a great "traditional" jazz sound on almost any amp.

[GuyBoden]

It's not just the sound, it's also the touch sensitively you get from a good valve/tube amp that I like, that's why I love my Fender Deluxe Reverb, good valves help enormously, luckily I purchased quite a few boxes of military spec mullard valves many, many years ago when they were less expensive.

[ruger9]

I'm no expert on jazz amps, but I certainly "know my way around" tube guitar amps for blues and rock. As much as I love Fender amps (I own one, and plan to own more), my favorite "jazz" (which for me is more old-school swing anf jump blues) tone didn't come out of a Fender amp. Most likely a Gibson EH-150/185 or something along those lines... Charlie Christian, Oscar Moore, the guys who played on Louis Jordan's stuff, even EARLY BB King, which was more of a jump blues style than the "straight" blues he became known for in later years.

If I were to buy an amp "for jazz", it would need to be significantly different sounding than my current amps, and I too am a "tube guy"... but more important, that old-school, not-too-much-bass/not-too-bright/sort-of-all-mids tone would be what I'm after. And a little grind when you dig into the strings. I MIGHT be able to get that out of a Fender tweed or brownface, but no way will a blackface make that sound.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

On a clean SS amp, I like a scooped Blackface EQ for solo chord melody stuff, but mids and more mids for cutting through in a group.

[Doctor Jeff]

I'm not fond of the sound of archtop guitars played through acoustic amps. I'm actually not fond of acoustic guitars played through acoustic amps. Ok, let's face it, I don't like most acoustic amps period

For my money, tweed/blackface tones are where it's at, but then I'm a Fender man through and through.

I have a Fender SCXD and like it a lot, but I think there's a category of "acoustic" amps that work for jazz. The Fishman Loudbox Artist has a tweeter with an adjustment knob to dial it down, as well as 3-part equalizer and midrange filter. IMO it works great for jazz--provides a clean, warm, balanced sound. The ZT Lunchbox Acoustic and the Ibanez Troubadour are also examples of very versatile amps that do more than just amplify contact pickups and tame the piezo squeak. The Roland acoustic amp has a magnetic pickup setting. The Fender Acoustasonic, which I've tried several times in music shops, has emulations for tube amps and seems pretty good for archtops.

Interestingly, I don't think they make the archtops sound more "acoustic". But IMO acoustic amps for electric archtops are much, much better than tube amps for acoustic.

I think that amp makers have seen the need for amps that are aimed toward acoustic users but can accomodate magnetic pickups. What they don't usually have is a gain control for overdrive. But if that was a major consideration, I probably wouldn't be playing an archtop, and one can add pedals for that anyway.

[NSJ]

Jazz and rock guitarists share the sysiphian dream of searching for the "ultimate tone". ".

Not really. I think most people just want a clear and well-articulated clean tone. That's all. And then they get on with the task of music making. Jazz is music, not gear.


I see far less of that "I need some of that 59 RI Les Paul mojo, it has so much more bite than the 58 RI Les Paul mojo" Or I'm gonna spend $60K on a factory made plank that took all of 3 hours to produce because it was made in 1961 and Eric Clapton used it and then it disappeared and what happened to it, it was so magical"crap around here.

[D.G.]

Not really. I think most people just want a clear and well-articulated clean tone. That's all. And then they get on with the task of music making. Jazz is music, not gear.

:raised-eyebrow:

Every musician I know, regardless of genre, chases tone to some extent. All the fiddle players I know won't even touch a violin under $6k cause they just don't sound good enough. I know a flutist who owns a $50k flute for its tone.

When playing electric archtop I want more than just a "clear and well-articulated clean tone." If that's all I really wanted, I could play through a powered PA speaker. But I don't because it sounds like unmitigated crap (I've tested this out.)

I'm pretty pleased with either a Princeton '65 RI -- loaded w/ Red Fang 10 -- or my latest acquisition, a Fender Excelsior Pro. Of course, a Twin also works really well, but I find them impractical to gig with.

[NSJ]

:raised-eyebrow:

Every musician I know, regardless of genre, chases tone to some extent. All the fiddle players I know won't even touch a violin under $6k cause they just don't sound good enough. I know a flutist who owns a $50k flute for its tone.

When playing electric archtop I want more than just a "clear and well-articulated clean tone." If that's all I really wanted, I could play through a powered PA speaker. But I don't because it sounds like unmitigated crap (I've tested this out.)

I'm pretty pleased with either a Princeton '65 RI -- loaded w/ Red Fang 10 -- or my latest acquisition, a Fender Excelsior Pro. Of course, a Twin also works really well, but I find them impractical to gig with.

Of course people care about tone and try to get the best instrument they ccan afford.But we also think about things like phrasing, portamento, legato, glissando, staccato, vibrato. These are musical concepts developed by practice and technique, not necessarily by p a gadget.

[hans halmackenreuter]

Tweeds have also played an important role in jazz (as blackfaces). And also the flat "jazz amp" polytone sound. These three would cover most sounds I believe...

I am a happy new owner of a 5e3 amp, which is a tweed deluxe and I'm happy you mentioned tweed amps, since nowadays people could oversee the quality of tweed clean tone's, since they seem to be more known for their crunchy capabilties.