The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I almost picked one up... then I read a few posts on the net where a few people claimed to have talked to Joe during his Ibanez(contract) period, and claimed that he said advised not to pick the guitar, mainly because the pickup was too much in the middle. However I have seen some YT vids where owners LOVED the guitar. Anyone Know what the absolute truth was? If the guitar was not up to Joe's specs, why? Usually don't the companies try to acomadate the celeb player? Anyone have any hard evidence as to what he felt about his Ibanez?

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  3. #2
    I don't have any hard evidence, so my input might be redundant.

    I have played them and although they are ok, I wouldn't buy one, unless I was a collector, or dealer.

    They just sound thin, is the best way I could describe them. The pick-up is indeed too far back from the neck and the design actually sounds a little boxy. They are not very deep and of arched spruce (if I remember correctly) and the acoustic tone, I could only describe as like cardboard'y.

    I was not impressed and when I looked at the price tag, even less so.

    If you want one, for tone, then I would suggest plenty of other better options (imo)

    But if you want one for another reason (big fan of JP, collector of rare archtops, fan of early Ibanez etc) then it should certainly float your boat, but I doubt we'd be having this conversation, if that was the case.

    Of course this is just my opinion.

  4. #3

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    Heck, back in 2002 or so there was a guy selling TWO artist owned and signed guitars, MEGA examples of the model. One was a GB12 with magnificent flamed back, signed on the back by George Benson, with back stage photos of the seller and Mr. Benson to support it. The guy must have been very good because he also had an artist owned and signed JP20, same deal, gorgeous woods used on the guitar which was signed on the back by Mr. Pass with similar back stage photos.

    So what was interesting about the JP20, it had a neck mounted mini hum bucker like what is used on a GB10 but it was painted black so it really sort of hid in the dark sunburst of the top near where the neck met. Controls mounted on the pick guard. Think about that, you have the JP guitar with the floating mini hum bucker where it;s going to make the guitar sound a lot fuller.


    Never like the JP20 for that oddly mounted mid pickup... By the way both guitars sold for a LOT.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob dullam
    I almost picked one up... then I read a few posts on the net where a few people claimed to have talked to Joe during his Ibanez(contract) period, and claimed that he said advised not to pick the guitar, mainly because the pickup was too much in the middle. However I have seen some YT vids where owners LOVED the guitar. Anyone Know what the absolute truth was? If the guitar was not up to Joe's specs, why? Usually don't the companies try to acomadate the celeb player? Anyone have any hard evidence as to what he felt about his Ibanez?
    I have owned three JP-20's over the years. They were of the highest quality, but I wasn't really happy with the tone, even after trying replacement pickups. I talked to Joe about the design of the JP-20 in later years, after he had gone back to playing a Gibson. He didn't criticize the JP-20 or advise against buying one, but he did say that he believed the pickup should have been closer to the neck. I got the impression that he didn't give it much thought when the guitar was designed, but he realized it wasn't ideal at a later date. He continued to play one for many years anyway. IIRC, he stopped playing it when Gibson put his name on the Epiphone Emperor Joe Pass model. Interestingly, I don't think he ever really played the Epiphone Joe Pass though. We got him to sign one and play it at a clinic that we held one time (my brother has the Epiphone that Joe signed and played that day). He said that when Gibson offered to build him a custom guitar, he asked them to put the pickup right against the end of the fingerboard, because he felt that was where it would sound best. They did that for him on his single pickup (slightly thinner) ES-175. That guitar was terrific. I always felt they should have put that guitar into production as an artist model.
    Keith

  6. #5

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    See that Gibson ES-175 in some of Joe's 1992 performances in Germany. Wasted opportunity.

    It looked 3" deep and the fretboard looked like ebony with a maple neck. The ES-775 comes closest to what that model would have been.

  7. #6

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    I don't think the Emperor I I was called the Epiphone "Joe Pass" until after he died.

    I also don't know if you can believe album covers and liner photos, but Joe is pictured with an ibanez JP on Andre previn's "after hours", and that album might be some of the best tone of job's career. Outstanding record...

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I don't think the Emperor I I was called the Epiphone "Joe Pass" until after he died.

    I also don't know if you can believe album covers and liner photos, but Joe is pictured with an ibanez JP on Andre previn's "after hours", and that album might be some of the best tone of job's career. Outstanding record...
    Joe's name was on the Emperor about a year before he died. That was the main reason we were able to get him to play a clinic for us. My brother was a Gibson/Epiphone dealer at he time (Murch Music in Cambridge Ontario). Joe was appearing at a club called the Top of the Senator in Toronto, so my brother asked the Canadian Distributor for Gibson/Epiphone (Yorkville Sound) if they would assist us in arranging a clinic in his store. They agreed, due to the new endorsement deal. There was only one catch - someone would have to pick Joe up at the hotel and drive him to the clinic, which was an hour away. That was my job. It involved pasta for lunch, a lot of guitar talk, the clinic, and we just had to get him back in time for his gig that night. Joe played his new single pickup 175 for the first part of the clinic. We had the new Joe Pass Emperor in stock, which he signed with a sharpie and played for the second part of the clinic. He also signed an epiphone promotional poster for me (Joe knows Jazz, we know guitars).
    Keith

  9. #8

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    @50hz, without having access to the Ibanez jp20, I have to rely at least somewhat on the general consensus. Most guitar stores don't stock really high end archtops anymore. We all know that these archtops are expensive, and even though the Ibanez has joe's name on it, who would want to play it if it really didn't sound all that good.
    I can't help but be curious as to why Ibanez didn't make the effort to correct this, and get Joe a guitar that he REALLY liked, that makes no sense to me. And if this is the case you kind of have to wonder about any of these "signature" guitars, because we don't know the real story behind them. maybe some of them are really what the artist likes, maybe not so much. I've seen one famous guitarist through the years endore one brand, then another, then yet another, each time testifying that this is THE best guitar. Of course everyone has time related changes in taste. but...
    I have the Tal Farlow hotlicks DVD. in the section where he talks about his guitars, he mentioned that he had this idea for a pickup that could slide in any position from the neck to the bridge, but Gibson didn't want to do it.

    in regards to having to rely on general consensus about a guitar, there are lots of guys on youtube playing everything. got to listen to a guy last night, who has a yt channel, good player, used a new D'angelico exl1, then a gibson wesmo. gotta say that D'angelico was NICE... on another post in this forum, a guy was talking about going to Dave's guitar store in Lacross Wi. There they carry many high-end gibson archtops, he noted that the guitar he liked most above all the l-5's etc. was the gibson es-175. the one Joe used. He did not mention Joe in context with it, so leads me to think that ya, maybe there is some magic to the 175. Be nice to go there sometime, and get to witness the tone on a good variety of high-end archtops first hand.

    I own an Epiphone Joe P. I bought it mainly because it was there going for cheap, at a local guitar center, and no one wanted it(new). Not many people these days are archtop fans. I changed the tailpiece, knobs, and took off the pickguard. Really pretty nice sound for the buck. But at some point I would like to get a really great sounding box, but I have to do the homework, cause I don't have the cash to just buy and then try...

  10. #9

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    here's a better recording of the Ibanez..


  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob dullam
    I almost picked one up... then I read a few posts on the net where a few people claimed to have talked to Joe during his Ibanez(contract) period, and claimed that he said advised not to pick the guitar, mainly because the pickup was too much in the middle. However I have seen some YT vids where owners LOVED the guitar. Anyone Know what the absolute truth was? If the guitar was not up to Joe's specs, why? Usually don't the companies try to acomadate the celeb player? Anyone have any hard evidence as to what he felt about his Ibanez?
    Joe came to the uk during that period with his JP20 ( didn't bring his D'Aquisto) along with
    a few others had a lesson with him,we swapped instruments he made no adverse comment
    except his preference for the pup to be in the neck position ,I also disliked its placement
    but it played very well nevertheless. I acquired mine in 1983 for £350 and sold it a few years
    on for for than double that cost( it had some provenance as JP had used it.

  12. #11

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    Ha sorry if I sounded rude earlier Bob, I guess I'm just thinking that the guitar should need to meet only your specifications, not those of Joe Pass or fellow forumites, that's all. I can definitely sympathize with a lack of opportunity to try nicer archtops locally but if you're serious about the JP surely you can get one through mail and negotiate a trial period seeing as it's a pretty significant investment. I think from some vids you can get a general idea of how a JP sounds vs an ES-175, so whichever one sings to you, go for it.


    You could also try a seance with Joe Pass if you really need to know the answer though

  13. #12

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    How do we really know it's the D'Arc is to on that cut?

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob dullam
    anyone know the details about the 175 pickup placement? i.e. what yrs, of make did they put the pickup next to the fingerboard.?
    Like Floatingpickup said above, they didn't. It was a custom build for Joe. The L4 has the PU placed closer to the neck than the 175, so an L4 may be the nearest you'll get to Joes custom 175 - apart from talking the Gibson Custom Shop into making a "Joe Pass Special" for you. It may be an ideosyncracy of mine, but I do firmly believe that the sound difference between a 175 and an L4 very much depends on the placement of the neck PU - which the recordings of Joe with the custom 175 seems to confirm.

    But back to the Ibanez JP model: I don't like the sound of it and I think the misplaced PU is the main reason. I have a recording Joe made with Benny Carter, on which he used the Ibanez JP. To be frank, IMHO the sound is awful. I heard Joe with NHØP live at a Copenhagen club date where Joe also used the Ibanez and though I was overwhelmed by his playing, I was underwhelmed by the sound of the guitar. It's my understanding that Joe used the Ibanez as much - and as little - as he had to to fulfill to his endorsement deal obligations. It seems he brought the Ibanez if he had to take it on an air flight whereas he often used the D'Aquisto if he could travel on ground and carry the case himself. And he wasn't seen using the Ibanez after the endorsement deal ran out. Maybe Joe learned about the negative sides of endorsement deals the same way Barney Kessel did. After his deal with Gibson, Kessel never again used any gear he didn't pay for himself. He was once asked about his choice of string and was hard pressed to reveal it because, as he said, there are many excellent strings out there and he payed for his strings himself according to what worked for him but other players might not share his preferences.
    Last edited by oldane; 03-12-2014 at 05:49 PM.

  15. #14

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    I just now watched a long video of joe at a workshop in Va, where he talked a bit about the Ibanez. he said that he designed the neck, and wanted the bridge and tailpiece out of wood, as opposed to metal. He did mention that he had to play it because he endorsed it, when asked why he didn't play the gibson, or the D'aquisto. Wish we could hear a taste test w/ the Ibanez, back to back w/ the gibson, through the same amp. recorded at the same place in the same way.

  16. #15

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    This is what Joe said about the Ibanez JP20Did Joe Pass NOT care much for his Ibanez JP20??-joe-pass-ibanezjp20-quote-jpg

  17. #16

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    There is much talk about whether Joe actually felt the guitar was mightier than his proverbial pen, whether he put put his words in practice and performance. I don't doubt it at all. And it's from an Ibanez catalogue. You don't bite the hand that feeds you. There is also talk that he didn't like the guitar, and he didn't play it in public a lot. This is what he said, this publicity blurb and contrariwise in interviews.
    Joe Pass was a great player. His guitars were tools. He played what he wanted and had the luxury of being able to choose between a 175 he was very comfortable with, several hand built D'Aquistos made for him and an instrument made to the image and dimensions of his D'Aquisto by Ibanez.
    Given this enviable spectra, I know he naturally had his playing preferences, and he had a lucrative arrangement from saying good things about his name sake. As a player, he talked about what his very personal tastes were in his personal guitars. That doesn't change the fact that it really is a fine instrument, one of the finest out there IMO, and for many serious and talented players is a worthy instrument.

    Ibanez did a really incredible job when they built the JP, and in many ways it was the predecessor to many guitars of this type: Aria D'Aquisto, Fender collaboration with D'Aquisto, Sadowsky...to name a few. I loved the feel of mine when I bought it in the early 80's and personally I didn't warm to the pickups, so I put a Gibson PAF in mine at the time. THAT's a serious guitar and in the end, it's what any individual player thinks. When you're making music with an instrument, any words about that guitar, good or bad, are between the hype and the consumer; the guitar is between you and the music.
    David

  18. #17

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    Thanks David,

    You are so right. I have no experience with pickups eg PAF and Gibson 57. But have never ever had a problem getting a gorgeous tone. Better than Pass sometimes ( ha ha ) watch the comments fly in. I said tone not playing ( no where near Joe, even in my next lifetime ). I really just put that pic quote in case others had not seen it. I am aware it is " Big Swifty & Associates Corporate Swill Marketing Blurb ". Neck on a JP20 unbeatable, absolutely wonderfull, but we all have different shape & size hands. What is the difference between PAF and Super 58, if you can remember.

    Regards M

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by marvinvv
    T. But have never ever had a problem getting a gorgeous tone. ... What is the difference between PAF and Super 58, if you can remember.

    Regards M
    So much of sound is what you do with an instrument, amp, strings, pick, fingers, etc... so I should always qualify: What works for me. Yes, I found the Ibanez stock pickups tended to emphasize the mid to high range, and to my ears and fingers (I'm finger style and sand my nails for a pretty acoustic sound to begin with) they sounded and felt brittle and lacking in a bottom end presence on that particular guitar. The Gibson PAF (and since then I've come to feel an affinity for Duncan 58's or Jazz) bring out a more balanced attack, offer that mid range scoop and a nice round upper frequency range that has detail but doesn't overwhelm. I used Round wound strings so that may have contributed a lot to my own tastes.
    Yes, changing a pickup is one solution of a total package when setting up an instrument. I had the luxury of being able to switch out any component to my taste. I often wonder what Joe would have thought of that guitar had Hoshino been able to offer him a more familiar Gibson pickup in that model (Yeah fat chance!) and that's a prerogative that we non endorsees always have!

    Still think that guitar is absolutely gorgeous. Yah, that neck is one of the things Ibanez can be proud of. The whole guitar is "light-weight, well balanced and comfortable to hold" like an ideal JP woman, cat or a gymnastic alpaca. I'll remember that one for the day I get an endorsement deal.
    David

  20. #19

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    I wonder if the pickup placement was his idea.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    BTW what a deeming and sexist load of codswallop. Women should be balanced, light weight and conformable? Get outa here with that 70's nonsense.
    I was at a classical guitar competition once, sitting right behind the judges. One of them said quietly to the one next to him, "That was nice, but he needs a woman."

  22. #21

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    Joe's tone with the JP20 was never something I liked very much. According to other pro jazz guitarists who knew Joe I've had a chance to talk to, Joe wasn't happy with the tone either. Complicating that was his preference for not using an amp and going direct to FOH; with a good sound person and a good FOH system his tone was better, with an inept sound person and crappy FOH system... well. I think he sounded better going through an amp rather than direct, but Joe liked the ambience of the sound coming from all over the room than from a point source.

    Joe's tone varies a lot over the course of his career. He never went for the Jim Hall dark tone, so if that's what you think a good tone is you probably won't like Joe's. Go to YouTube and search for Joe Pass 1992. There's a gig on there with Joe playing his last guitar, a custom Gibson that is very close to an ES-775. He never sounded better to my ears- both his tone and his playing. Holy smokes! Listen to But Beautiful. Wow. What artistry and what a tone.
    Last edited by Cunamara; 11-28-2014 at 12:30 PM.

  23. #22

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    Some guy is selling a JP20 allegedly owned by Joe Pass himself. The seller claims to have documentation, and 'believes' that this is the first JP20 from the factory:
    Ibanez JP 20 - eid og brukt av Joe Pass! - FINN Torget
    Translation of ad for those interested: [spoiler] "This is a rare guitar(1980 - first year of production) that has been owned and used by Joe Pass himself! JP has played this "relic" with Oscar Peterson, Niels H.Ø. Pedersen, and others. I bought it from one James D. Cesena in San Diego quite a few years back, and have used it on a record. Cesena had the guitar for about 20 years before he sold it to me, and there is a backstory behind this guitar that I can document upon closer contact. I also believe that this is the first signature model from the Ibanez factory, then given to Joe Pass, though I still haven't got the verification from Ibanez. The reason why Pass sold this guitar to Cesena is [neck wood related problem, the seller is using some inconsistent language, but explains it was because of the 'freshness' of the wood], and that he got a new guitar from Ibanez. The neck is now stable and perfect. A fantastic Gibson Super 58 pickup sits on it now, and I have the original PUs. I've also made "F-plugholes" which allows you to play at louder volumes. If you're interested in a good guitar and a piece of Jazz history, contact me." [/spoiler]

    Think it is legit?

  24. #23

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    As I have posted elsewhere, I worked at Group IV Studios in Hollywood during the 80's where JP recorded quite a bit. I met him several times, he had a good sense of humor. Equipment was state of the art at the time-Trident desk and Studer tape machines. Any mic in the locker. I never saw him with the Ibanez in the studio-175, Polytone and a patch cord was all he brought.

    I always liked the Ibanez JP and wouldn't mind having one. This is listed at Golden Age at about 2200.
    Attached Images Attached Images Did Joe Pass NOT care much for his Ibanez JP20??-jp20-jpg 
    Last edited by SierraTango; 11-28-2014 at 01:43 PM.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    There is much talk about whether Joe actually felt the guitar was mightier than his proverbial pen, whether he put put his words in practice and performance. I don't doubt it at all. And it's from an Ibanez catalogue. You don't bite the hand that feeds you. There is also talk that he didn't like the guitar, and he didn't play it in public a lot. This is what he said, this publicity blurb and contrariwise in interviews.
    Joe Pass was a great player. His guitars were tools. He played what he wanted and had the luxury of being able to choose between a 175 he was very comfortable with, several hand built D'Aquistos made for him and an instrument made to the image and dimensions of his D'Aquisto by Ibanez.
    Given this enviable spectra, I know he naturally had his playing preferences, and he had a lucrative arrangement from saying good things about his name sake. As a player, he talked about what his very personal tastes were in his personal guitars. That doesn't change the fact that it really is a fine instrument, one of the finest out there IMO, and for many serious and talented players is a worthy instrument.

    Ibanez did a really incredible job when they built the JP, and in many ways it was the predecessor to many guitars of this type: Aria D'Aquisto, Fender collaboration with D'Aquisto, Sadowsky...to name a few. I loved the feel of mine when I bought it in the early 80's and personally I didn't warm to the pickups, so I put a Gibson PAF in mine at the time. THAT's a serious guitar and in the end, it's what any individual player thinks. When you're making music with an instrument, any words about that guitar, good or bad, are between the hype and the consumer; the guitar is between you and the music.
    David
    This is a good description of the JP. It was built to the specs of his D'Aquisto, because Joe sent Ibanez the specs he got from Jimmy D. without Jimmy's knowledge.
    When Jimmy found out, he sued Ibanez, and they had to stop making them.
    Jimmy didn't speak to Joe for years after that. Even when Jimmy played a gig on bass with Joe in NY, Jimmy didn't say a word to Joe. At the end of the gig, he just pulled the cable out of the amp and left, without saying a word to Joe.
    Roger Borys described the JP as a flawed D'Aquisto. God only knows why they put the pickup where they did...

  26. #25

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    The Joe Pass in the studio story from SierraTango sounds about right, to me. It resonates with the stories that are associated with so many other jazz players. We know of players, for example, who are always associated with Mesa or Vox on stage, but who invariably use their favorite tweed Deluxes in the studio. Benson has his signature guitars, but in the studio will use D'Angelico Excel of Gibson archtop guitars. Likewise, he has a signature amplifier, but will record with a Fender.

    Everybody tours with one thing, but has the great vintage stuff at home or in the studio. Keith Richards is playing a Nash Tele on stage, these days. Hmm? I wonder if he records with it?

    And so it goes. I'd bet that _most_ of Pass' recordings were made with his Gibson. Secondly, would be the D'Aquisto guitars. For some of the fly-in gigs and live stuff that made it to tape, you might have found the Ibanez.