The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Joe sounded the best on his 175 for electric work and the D'aquisto gave him the acoustic edge to his sound. In fact some of the cuts on his first Virtuoso recording are the 175 straight to the board no amp was picking up the sound, those cuts are amazingly good. You can here the change on the recording of Virtuoso from tune to tune. That by the way is my all time favorite Pass recording...…...Joe went in sat down and played. It all comes together and this was a landmark of jazz guitar recordings.

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  3. #52

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    One luthier who made at least one guitar for Joe Pass, reported seeing Joe play live on two different occasions when he was using his Ibanez JP. He said that the first time he saw him play, the guitar's jack input was so messed up, it was making loud electronic noises, buzzing and even cutting out.
    The second time he saw Joe play, a month or so later, Joe was having the same problem with it. He spoke to Joe about it, and he said he didn't care enough about the guitar to get it fixed, and was just playing it to fulfill his part of the endorsement deal.

    This luthier, who apprenticed with Jimmy D'Aquisto for a number of years,, was fascinated with the Ibanez JP model, saying that Ibanez had done a great job copying the plans Joe had given them (without Jimmy's permission), but couldn't understand why they changed the position of the neck pickup. He called the JP model, "an aborted D'Aquisto".

    Unlike John D'Angelico, who could have sued Gibson for illegally copying his guitar to make the Gibson Johnny Smith model, Jimmy took Ibanez to court, and the JP model was off the market a few months later.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    One luthier who made at least one guitar for Joe Pass, reported seeing Joe play live on two different occasions when he was using his Ibanez JP. He said that the first time he saw him play, the guitar's jack input was so messed up, it was making loud electronic noises, buzzing and even cutting out.
    The second time he saw Joe play, a month or so later, Joe was having the same problem with it. He spoke to Joe about it, and he said he didn't care enough about the guitar to get it fixed, and was just playing it to fulfill his part of the endorsement deal.

    This luthier, who apprenticed with Jimmy D'Aquisto for a number of years,, was fascinated with the Ibanez JP model, saying that Ibanez had done a great job copying the plans Joe had given them (without Jimmy's permission), but couldn't understand why they changed the position of the neck pickup. He called the JP model, "an aborted D'Aquisto".

    Unlike John D'Angelico, who could have sued Gibson for illegally copying his guitar to make the Gibson Johnny Smith model, Jimmy took Ibanez to court, and the JP model was off the market a few months later.
    I'm confused by your last sentence above. If Jimmy D'Aquisto "took Ibanez to court...", doesn't that imply that some type of legal action (e.g. lawsuit) was filed by D'Aquisto? If so, there would be a record of it somewhere. This is the first I've heard of any such action. Any details?

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    I eventually sold my JP-20 because I came to the conclusion that I liked the ES-175 model better (I like the shorter scale). I think Joe Pass felt the same way. That said, the JP-20 is a great guitar and the workmanship on those is top notch.

    If you pick between the neck and the PUP on a JP-20, you can get a great jazz tone.
    I concur, the JP20 was a good guitar. when Joe visited his friend., my tutor, in the Uk we swapped our
    JP20's he played mine and vice versa. ,and made no adverse comment on the guitar. While i'm name
    dropping here . Louis Stewart also commented positively on the JP20 when he heard it, although on the
    small side for him.
    In similar fashion to SS I swapped mine but for an L4CES instead

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverfoxx
    I concur, the JP20 was a good guitar. when Joe visited his friend., my tutor, in the Uk we swapped our
    JP20's he played mine and vice versa. ,and made no adverse comment on the guitar. While i'm name
    dropping here . Louis Stewart also commented positively on the JP20 when he heard it, although on the
    small side for him.
    In similar fashion to SS I swapped mine but for an L4CES instead
    Foxman,
    Joe played your guitar? Wow I never knew that. If Joe ever played my guitar, my guitar would make a laughing sound every time I’d try to play it.
    JD

  7. #56

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    Jimmy D.'s attorney might have just sent Ibanez a letter? Joe's contract might have simply run out? The sales of that model did not support continued production?

    There are a lot of possible explanations as to why it came off the market.

    If an actual lawsuit was filed, that public record would be out there.

    Regardless, that guitar is an interesting part of archtop guitar history. I played many gigs with mine and enjoyed my ownership of that guitar for several years. Those who have never played one should not knock it.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitfiddler
    I'm confused by your last sentence above. If Jimmy D'Aquisto "took Ibanez to court...", doesn't that imply that some type of legal action (e.g. lawsuit) was filed by D'Aquisto? If so, there would be a record of it somewhere. This is the first I've heard of any such action. Any details?
    All I know is that Jimmy contacted a lawyer, and the result was a very popular jazz guitar model made by Ibanez was not sold by them anymore.
    This was all told to me by Roger Borys, Jimmy's apprentice during this time period, so if you don't think any of this happened, call him up.

    As I've mentioned before, Jimmy HATED Joe Pass with such intensity for screwing him on the Ibanez deal, he didn't speak to him for many years.
    Later on, when Jimmy got the deal with Fender, he forgave Joe for what he did.
    But don't believe me, call Jimmy's family if you're so concerned about finding the truth.

  9. #58

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    sgcim~ You raised the issue of legal action by Jimmy D'Aquisto; not I. Now you are back-peddling, stating "Jimmy contacted a lawyer....". You seem to have 'inside information' about one of our guitar building heros as well as a jazz guitar icon. That's great, especially for a jazz guitar forum that enjoys discussions about our heros. But expect to be challenged or at least asked respectfully, clarify your own written words, especially if they are unverifiable.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitfiddler
    sgcim~ You raised the issue of legal action by Jimmy D'Aquisto; not I. Now you are back-peddling, stating "Jimmy contacted a lawyer....". You seem to have 'inside information' about one of our guitar building heros as well as a jazz guitar icon. That's great, especially for a jazz guitar forum that enjoys discussions about our heros. But expect to be challenged or at least asked respectfully, clarify your own written words, especially if they are unverifiable.
    I dunno, I'm a musician, not a lawyer. I guess I shouldn't say anything about the law unless I can verify it.
    All I know is Jimmy took some kind of action that stopped Ibanez from selling the JP Model, according to Roger.

    If you want to verify it, be my guest.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    I dunno, I'm a musician, not a lawyer. I guess I shouldn't say anything about the law unless I can verify it.
    All I know is Jimmy took some kind of action that stopped Ibanez from selling the JP Model, according to Roger.

    If you want to verify it, be my guest.
    You're the one who made the claim, so really it's your job to back it up. You can't just launch a bomb into a discussion and then expect everyone else to clean up after your mess.

  12. #61

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    here's bob roetker on his JP-20. I believe he replaced the pickup with a bartolini


  13. #62

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    I dunno. I've played the JP-20 and always thought it sounded fine. To be sure, it's different than the ES-175 (which I played for 30 years as my main guitar). Still, I'd be happy with the JP-20. It's so damned well made--incredibly stable. As Joe D says, it will sustain for days. He's right, too, it gets a Strat/archtop sound.

    Pickup position? No doubt this contributes to the unusual sound. Still, I used to play jazz on a '57 Fender Esquire. All it had was a bridge pickup. I never complained, nor received complaints about this.

  14. #63

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    Joe played a JP20 for over 10 years, and not hundreds but closer to 1000's studio sessions, dates, clubs workshops,

    Joe was not short of money, and simply would have bought or played another guitar if unhappy,

    (as much as i love and respect him) Joes tone was never that great imo, even on Gibsons,


    The Super 58 is a brighter pup Sco's AS200 has Super 58 but Sco's tone is not like a Wes Barney Joe etc it different.

    Heres the Joke Sco use bridge pup a lot.............................

    comparing Ibanez to Gibson is a waste of time they are not Gibson and do not sound like them it is merely a different sound,
    Joe also played thro the house system when he could.

    Imo more a mismatch between pup and guitar as certain pups suit different guitars.


    Its like comparing a LP to Strat or Tele .......................... all different all good.

  15. #64

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    yeah, joe pass's tone sucked on the 175!


  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    yeah, joe pass's tone sucked on the 175!

    IMO, Jazz guitar tone does not get any better than that.

    And to avoid any confusion, while that album cover shows a later picture of Joe with an Epiphone of some sort, the Joy Spring album was done with his 1962 ES-175D which had late PAF Pickups and was strung with 13 flats.

  17. #66

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    That's probably John Pisano's father's Epiphone, a Deluxe from the 40s if I remember correctly. Joe liked it a lot and used it in the studio on some of his records.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    That's probably John Pisano's father's Epiphone, a Deluxe from the 40s if I remember correctly. Joe liked it a lot and used it in the studio on some of his records.
    Yep Summer Nights and the one after that (Appasionatto?).

    John Pisano told me that he (John) brought the old Epiphone Deluxe to the studio for the Summer Nights recording, expecting to use it himself and showed it to Joe. Joe played it for a bit and said that he (Joe) would use it for the recording. John had to play a different guitar. Oh well, Joe was the boss

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    IMO, Jazz guitar tone does not get any better than that.

    And to avoid any confusion, while that album cover shows a later picture of Joe with an Epiphone of some sort, the Joy Spring album was done with his 1962 ES-175D which had late PAF Pickups and was strung with 13 flats.
    SS, when I think of Jazz Guitar, that’s what I hear in my brain.
    You know, I brought the Epiphone thing up once. I was dismissed by a large bad ass guitar playing Polish fellow from Chicago. I still love you though Mr B..
    I didn’t know that guitar was a real Epi from the glory days. Wow.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max405
    SS, when I think of Jazz Guitar, that’s what I hear in my brain.
    You know, I brought the Epiphone thing up once. I was dismissed by a large bad ass guitar playing Polish fellow from Chicago. I still love you though Mr B..
    I didn’t know that guitar was a real Epi from the glory days. Wow.
    JD Listen to "Summer Nights", one of Joe's best albums IMO. Joe sounds great on that NON-CUTAWAY Epi Deluxe from the 40's.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max405
    SS, when I think of Jazz Guitar, that’s what I hear in my brain.
    You know, I brought the Epiphone thing up once. I was dismissed by a large bad ass guitar playing Polish fellow from Chicago. I still love you though Mr B..
    I didn’t know that guitar was a real Epi from the glory days. Wow.
    I also take some issue with the idea that Joe didn't care much about tone. I have pretty much all of his recordings and I listen to them all in the course of a year or so, over and over. Some indeed lack what we today consider great tone, but most of them to my ear sound wonderful. Ira, George and Joe is little known, but has Joe's great ES175 tone. Blues for Fred is one of the most beautiful sounding jazz guitar albums I've ever listened to. Six String Santa is amazingly good.

    Where Joe's tone fails most of our tests is live recordings. That's not Joe's fault. Would we rather not have his playing from those live dates? I think not. He made a decision to give his listeners an album rather than hoard the music because it didn't make him sound great. I admire that.

    The tone on Virtuoso is the result of a recording mishap. Joe decided to give us the album anyhow. The rest is history. Who would NOT want Virtuoso to have been released? "Oh, we have this album of absolutely brain-exploding solo guitar, but you know, we lost the DI feed so no, we're not releasing this album that totally redefines solo guitar..."

    Joe was committed to working, to making music, and getting the music out to listeners.
    Last edited by lawson-stone; 09-14-2018 at 06:16 AM.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    JD Listen to "Summer Nights", one of Joe's best albums IMO. Joe sounds great on that NON-CUTAWAY Epi Deluxe from the 40's.
    SS, I will do that. You know, you are right about my short sightedness about the cutaway. The only time I really play up there is when I have to, not when I want to. Id rather stop at the 14th fret.
    I look forward to hearing different sound coming from Joe's Playing.
    My God he was great.
    JD

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max405
    SS, I will do that. You know, you are right about my short sightedness about the cutaway. The only time I really play up there is when I have to, not when I want to. Id rather stop at the 14th fret.
    I look forward to hearing different sound coming from Joe's Playing.
    My God he was great.
    JD
    Summer Nights and especially Appassionato are among my favorite Joe Pass albums.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greentone
    Lawson,

    Overall, I agree. However, the concert at Jazz Baltica, where JP plays his custom Gibson through the tiny Polytone Baby Taurus, sounds fantastic IMO.
    I think we've talked about that performance before; I absolutely agree I think he sounds great in that recording. I just was noting it seems live recordings are the ones where people gripe about Joe's tone. But I almost never hear anything to complain about when I hear one of Joe's tracks.

    One that I think is just gorgeous is his stint with the NDB Big Band Joe Pass in Hamburg. this track is pretty representative of what I hear in a bunch of Joe's recordings. This is a great album, to, though one seldom hears it talked about.


  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Summer Nights and especially Appassionato are among my favorite Joe Pass albums.
    .
    Probably the 2 albums I never heard.
    I have All the Virtuoso's, George Ira Joe, Six String Santa and Intercontinental (my fav). Heck I even have the one he did with Paulinho De Costa, I cant remember the name but it was great too.

    Last night when I was practicing I reinforced the realization that Joe Pass arrangements take up 4 slots in my brains filing system. I know most of the stuff Joe Played was impromptu, but God he was a master.. But its so easy to forget his stuff.

    JD

  26. #75

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    Joe,

    Me, too. I can hear Joe Pass at will in my head. I just can't reproduce it with my clumsy fingers.

    You know, the most abiding thing I draw from all of Pass' playing, believe it or not, isn't his tie-your-fingers-in knots polyphony. Nope. It's his amazing swing. I don't know a guitarist who swings more sensationally--even when he's just changing from II-V. I feel Joe Pass' rhythm more than even Wes Montgomery's--that's saying a lot!

    GT