The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    This is a good description of the JP. It was built to the specs of his D'Aquisto, because Joe sent Ibanez the specs he got from Jimmy D. without Jimmy's knowledge.
    When Jimmy found out, he sued Ibanez, and they had to stop making them.
    Jimmy didn't speak to Joe for years after that. Even when Jimmy played a gig on bass with Joe in NY, Jimmy didn't say a word to Joe. At the end of the gig, he just pulled the cable out of the amp and left, without saying a word to Joe.
    Roger Borys described the JP as a flawed D'Aquisto. God only knows why they put the pickup where they did...
    The pickup position is simply because there are too many frets on the fingerboard. The ES-175 Joe played had 19 and the D'Aquisto had 20, IIRC. Ibanez put 22 on the JP-20 and then positioned the pickup relative to the end of the fretboard rather than relative to the scale length. Had they put the pickup at about the 24th fret instead of being at about the 26th or 27th fret as it is, the reaction to the guitar would have been very different I suspect. It would have sounded more like an ES-175 and less like a middle pickup.

    Damned shame, too- the neck is superb and the body is well made. It's a great guitar other than the pickup placement. And if you're willing to swap out the pickup for something like a Classic 57 it will help a lot by some accounts. I've always kind of wanted one of these. I think this era Ibanez were superbly crafted instruments; I have had a 1981 GB10 since 1986 and it is a *great* instrument. Not the sound I am looking for nowadays but wonderfully constructed and reliable as can be. The neck is the best I have ever played and there are a lot of tonal variations available. Just for that reason the JP20 would be worth having, just making some kind of pickup change (swapping the pickup, installing a floater, what have you) to fatten up the tone.

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  3. #27

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    Here an odd colored J.P. Unused by previous owners and myself. No obvious reasons. Nothing exceptional about it. The $2200. valued one shown here seems unlike it. This bright colored one not from Ibanez? artb
    Attached Images Attached Images Did Joe Pass NOT care much for his Ibanez JP20??-epi-joepass-1-jpg Did Joe Pass NOT care much for his Ibanez JP20??-epi-joepass-4-jpg 

  4. #28

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    Built quality, acoustic quality and playability of the neck on a Ibanez JP20 is very good! BUT... If you are interested in a JP 20 consider the points below before you buy one. A really good alternative is a 80s Ibanez AF200. To me the AF200 is a far better choice!

    Joe Pass played finger-style a lot and hit the strings between the fingerboard and the pickup. To get a endorsement, he asked Ibanez to make a guitar with more frets (22) then his ES-175 AND with more room between fingerboard and pickup. Consequently the pickup on a Ibanez JP20 is placed more towards the bridge then on any common jazz guitar by approx 4-5 cm / 1.5 - 2 inch more.
    The electric sound of these guitars therefore is thinner and hasn't got the thick and deep 'thumb' you get on a ES-175 and most other quality jazz guitars with a full humbucker. I always heard a sheen of the typical bridge pickup sound in the tone. I didn't like that. But it is a really different tone, if that is what you are looking for. Joe Pass didn't like the guitar very much himself and only played it in the early 80's and later, on TV to keep the Ibanez endorsement money, I guess.

    I also kept hitting the pickup with my pick. This sounds like a minor reason, but it really is very important! I simply couldn't play the JP20 for thát reason. One other (big) difference to a 'normal' Ibanez or Gibson jazz guitar: The JP20 has 25.5 scale length, like a L5 or a Fender guitar.


  5. #29

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    I think the guitar sounds great. I really do.
    You have to understand something. If you want a guitar that sounds like an ES175, then buy an ES175.
    To me it is important that a signature guitar has a unique quality. The Ibanez Jp-20 is an excellent guitar. I would still have my JP if the neck was thicker. But 99.9% Of the folks who own these Ibanez guitars prefer the neck size, so what do I know..
    I loved the complexity of sounds I got out of my JP. It was different. That was refreshing to me.
    JD

  6. #30

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    I find my JP-20 to be an excellent guitar. Truth be told, I do prefer my ES-175's and think that the JP-20 would have been a better guitar if the scale had been 24.7 (that would have, along with a shorter neck, put the pickup in the correct spot). I have used my JP-20 on many gigs and do not find it to be "thin-toned". It is a bit on the bright side, but for some rooms, it is just the ticket. I do not believe that Joe Pass disliked this guitar, but I do believe he preferred the Gibson 175. His last guitar was the ultimate Joe Pass model. Too bad it never made it into production.
    Last edited by Stringswinger; 01-29-2017 at 06:18 PM.

  7. #31

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    Joe D. Is one player who coaxes a very good sound out of the JP20, better than the tone Joe Pass usually got out of it. There are a lot of factors that go into getting a sound from any given signal chain. Joe Pass often/usually went direct to the PA which works well or poorly depending on the FOH equipment and the soundperson. He did not want to carry an amp with him, and he liked not having his sound coming from a single point on the stage. I have read that he had a custom DI box to facilitate this. In general on the videos he usually sounds better when you can clearly see that he was plugged into an amp.

    Also, Joe's inspirations were players with a bright tone like Charlie Christian, Les Paul, Django Reinhardt. The fad for dark, woofy jazz guitar tones came after Joe was developed as a guitarist. So he might have well been OK with the brighter sound of the JP20. Even on his ES-175 and D'Aquisto his tone was often bright.

    There is a lot of myth and lore around the JP20 and I don't know what is true and what is not. Some claim that Joe gave his D'Aquisto to Ibanez to copy, which pissed off Jimmy D'Aquisto and sundered their relationship. Some claim that the guitar was designed by Ivor Maraints with some input by Joe, maybe looking at the D'Aquisto and that was the design sent to Ibanez. In the process, two extra frets were added which pushed the pickup further towards the bridge- and that Joe did not initially know about this (he acts surprised on one of his instructional videos when he notes "hey, it goes up to D!"). It has also been reported (by another pro jazz guitarist on r.m.m.g.j who knew Joe Pass well) that Joe acknowledged the tone problem but played the instrument faithfully because Ibanez paid him an annual fee for quite a few years; this made up much of his income for the last decade or so of his career and he had a family to support. I think the math on these things is different when you are making your living and caring for your family by playing music, compared to when playing is an avocation.

    But you'd think Ibanez would have been falling over themselves to make it better! They made lots of tweaks to the Benson guitars as well as making multiple models. They worked very extensively with Bob Weir, making many prototypes* and a couple different production models (which probably sold far fewer copies than the JP20 did). Although IIRC Weir and Benson worked with Jeff Hasselberger of Ibanez in the USA, so maybe that was a difference. And maybe Joe, who seems to have been a very humble person, just didn't feel he could go back and say "hey, man, this is kind of a drag and can you fix it?" I think he even played just the one JP20 over the years...



    *Weir apparently has one of the GB10 prototypes intended for George Benson. He was at Ibanez meeting with Hasselberger and was shown the GB10s; he was so taken with it that he told them "call the cops if you want, but this one is leaving with me."). You can find photos of Weir playing it at gigs, and he also has an L-5CES that he has put the GB10 tailpiece on. His blue Hoeg archtop has a few similarities with the GB10 in terms of size, mini-humbuckers, etc.

  8. #32

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    I just listened to Joe's album "Blues for Fred". There is a picture of Joe on the back with his JP-20 and to my ears, this solo album sounds like he did use the JP-20. It is a solo guitar album and sounds great. Most guys who put the JP-20 down have never played one. The only thing that I am certain of is this, there are way more "guitar experts" posting stuff on the Internet than there are competent guitarists.

    Anyone who is curious about the JP-20 should play one. It is a long scale, thin bodied 16 inch laminate guitar with a thin neck (though it does have a 1.75 nut, the neck is pretty thin front to back and does not get much thicker sideways going up to the body joint) and a single humbucker that is forward of the neck pickup harmonic. It is brighter than a 175. And while it is beautiful (clearly a Jimmy D'Aquisto design that was "borrowed"), it is not for every jazz guitarist. But then again, no archtop accomplishes that.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    Joe D. Is one player who coaxes a very good sound out of the JP20, better than the tone Joe Pass usually got out of it.
    Cunamara, thanks buddy. But with all due respect, my name shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as the great Joe Pass.
    ive seen pictures of Joe Playing his JP20 live at shows, with black tape over the Ibanez logo. Now, one would assume that he was less than pleased with Ibanez at that moment, but it still didn't stop him from playing the guitar.
    I wouldn't blame the guitar for sounding thin sometimes. Strings, amps, soundmen, they all had a hand in the sound.
    I loved the guitar. But like SS said, the neck was thin and stayed that way all the up to it connection to the body.

    Come to think of it, my JP had stainless steel frets on it too. There was nothing thin about it.

  10. #34

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    If I recall correctly, the JP-20 and the AF207 shared the same body. I owned a AF207.High quality 7 string instrument built for just a few years starting in the late 90's. I had a issue with the neck being too narrow for a 7. Amazingly it was the only 7 string I sold that I actually made money on when I moved it.
    Last edited by SierraTango; 01-29-2017 at 03:19 PM.

  11. #35

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    Boy, there are lots of good sounds in the world of jazz guitar. But if I had to listen to the same one, ALL the time....

    Hey Wes M., that L-5 sounds great, but when are you come out/up from the bottom of the swimming pool ?!, because that's what it sounds like some of the time.

    Hey Joe P., that 175 sounds great in the small group, but solo (?)...isn't it a little dry and barky-sounding?

    Hey Johnny S.....great articulation and note separation, but how about a little "grease" sometimes?

    Hey Django....great Gypsy "cut" in that small string-based group....what you gonna do, in a big band setting? (Gotta go listen to some more late-career Django.)

    Hey George....great upper range on that Guild or Ibanez, BUT you could play an L-5 sometime....seriously, nobody will mistake you for Wes.

    Hey Hank G.....you know what...don't change a thing...it's just too bad we have so few top-flight recordings to appreciate.

    Maybe, this is why I like listening to trumpet/horn players. They all sound different anyway. Louis A., Roy E., Dizzy, Lee M., Donald Byrd, Booker Little, Harry James, Bunny Berrigan, Freddie Hubbard, Clifford B., Thad Jones.
    Last edited by goldenwave77; 01-29-2017 at 03:41 PM.

  12. #36

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    I've played a couple JP20s and liked them. The sound seemed good on fingerstyle but I prefer a less murky sound. The necks are great. Acoustically it wasn't much but then most Ibanez archtops don't seem to have any volume. I think they are versatile as far as tone but you have to be willing to explore where you pick between the bridge and neck to draw the most out of it. Just playing one as you would a neck or 2 pickup guitar is apt to be puzzling.

  13. #37

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    I'm the proud owner of a 1980 JP-20 - I guess not for everyone, and the pickup placement is unusual for sure. But that said, I think the "thin sound" complaint is sometimes over-stated - dare I say it, and don't flame me, but I find the tone Joe Pass himself got with the guitar wasn't really as sweet/warm as it's capable of. But like with a lot of things re guitar tone, it depends on how the guitar is played and also on the amp, strings used, etc. - anyhow I'd say the stock pickup sound is a perfectly decent jazz tone, if not quite typical.

    But I did for a while have a Kent Armstrong Slimbucker (only the cheap Asian-made version) floating pickup installed in the gap between fingerboard and the stock pickup (I made a new scratchplate so as not to have to alter the original) and with that pickup I got a really nice sweet warm jazz tone. For various reasons, I put the guitar back to just a pickup in the stock body-mounted surround, but I'm thinking I might try adding a hand wound Kent Armstrong floater as that ought to be pretty great.

    I love the neck on the guitar - it's a bit wider than some (1.75" at the nut IIRC) but as has been said quite slim, and I find it perfectly manageable and very comfortable to use. Depends on taste of course - personally I seem fairly tolerant of a variety of different neck profiles.

    Just some pics of the guitar below,

    1. as it was until about a year or two ago, with added Kent Armstrong floating pickup, and my own supposed to be Art Deco-ish pickguard design . The KA pickup was just supported on a rubber base and held on the guitar with double-sided sticky tape (not strong enough to damage the finish) but it was just a bit of a precarious arrangement, although it sounded good.

    2. a pickup I had made for the guitar by Chris Hernandez at Wound4Sound pickups - a alnico 3 magnet, about 7K resistance.

    3. the Wound4Sound pickup fitted, and I've removed the KA floating one, and gone back to the stock pickguard. Not sure if I'll keep the guitar like this or not at the moment.


    Did Joe Pass NOT care much for his Ibanez JP20??-dscf2998-jpgDid Joe Pass NOT care much for his Ibanez JP20??-dscf3003-jpgDid Joe Pass NOT care much for his Ibanez JP20??-dscf3024-jpg

    I still have the original Super 58 pickup also by the way, although it looks a bit on the tatty side now, but just FWIW. I haven't been using the guitar a lot recently to be honest, but I'll have to play it a bit and consider what's the best way forward for using the guitar - it is a very nice instrument.
    Last edited by Meggy; 01-29-2017 at 04:23 PM.

  14. #38

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    SS,
    Cannot disagree with your comments on the JP20, I acquired mine in '82 or '83
    tho' it sat in a shop for some time unappreciated. The asking price was £599. As
    there was no interest in it I waited a while then bought it for only £350.
    I took it to my then new Tutor, ( unbeknown to me a very good friend of Joe,
    here in the UK) he was mightily impressed with it despite the comment on
    the pickup placement. I kept it for 14 or so years.The great Louis Stewart, another
    friend, called in to my Tutor. and expressed his liking of it although he played
    an S400 at the time. I thought the JP20 was a great guitar. On one visit by Joe
    to my tutor we discussed it and swapped instruments and unless I'm mistaken
    his own JP20 appeared to have a slightly enlarged headstock.? Joe was a very
    friendly and witty character, with a humble demeanour. I met him a couple of
    times. I was very lucky in meeting my late Tutor .He knew many top players
    and introduced Martin Taylor ,Barney Kessel and Tal Farlow etc., I was in
    awe of these players.

    For some inexplicable reason I sold the guitar some years later at a
    good profit but las we all do at some time, I regretted letting it go.

  15. #39

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    If I had one I'd get one of those Guild DeArmond 1100 reissues and put that in the gap between the HB and end of fingerboard. However I'm not convinced that you couldn't get a good tone from the HB though - it's a bit like 24 fret instruments where the neck pickup is a bit further back - my Gibson l6-S is like this. I still have no problem getting a very good jazz sound from that guitar, if anything in some rooms I find it still can get muddy.

    The JP-20s I have played have all been absolute top notch guitars in terms of playability and the build quality was as good as it gets, sadly I never had the chance to plug one in though.

  16. #40

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    Did Joe Pass NOT care much for his Ibanez JP20??-ibanez-jp20-jpg

    I pulled mine out today, it is a 1980 model (first year with Joe's signature on the label). The bindings have yellowed and this guitar has a real vintage vibe to it. It is a first rate archtop guitar, as close to a D'Aquisto as I will ever own. For guys who like the early 60's slim neck profile, it is a wonderful electric archtop. For me, it is a keeper.

  17. #41

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    Doggone, the JP20 is always a beautiful guitar. Great shape, great 'bursts. It looks like a jazz guitar. Like all guitars, before you can know whether or not it's for you- you have to play it. On paper you might think "nah, it's going to be too bright and thin." Then you might play it and say "THAT'S IT! That's my sound!" Or you might say "ye gods, what were they thinking?" But you won't know until you try.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max405
    Cunamara, thanks buddy. But with all due respect, my name shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as the great Joe Pass.
    ive seen pictures of Joe Playing his JP20 live at shows, with black tape over the Ibanez logo. Now, one would assume that he was less than pleased with Ibanez at that moment, but it still didn't stop him from playing the guitar.

    JD,
    What Joe Pass would have appreciated is that you play the whole tune, he was less enamoured with a player
    trying to impress with the first 8 bars and launching into a long improv which could be monotonous .
    remember too Barney also taped over the Gibson logo to express his displeasure with the BK model , he
    disliked , preferring a commission ( he didn't get) instead of the guitar.. I might have suggested earlier that
    you would have got on fine with JP, not one to put down others but willing to share his skills.

    007 & M
    Alan, Thank you my good man.
    When Joe was still alive, I regret never making enough of an effort to connect with him. During his rest, I have often vowed to make sure that I do whatever I can do to make sure other musicians don't forget him along with Johnny Smith. When I play their stuff, I do so with reverence to them. I could "make it my own" but I am not worthy. I couldn't do any justice to what they've already done. So I just set my own creativity aside, and honor the greats. When and if I can come up with something original, that is on their level, I will. In due time.
    Joe D

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    Doggone, the JP20 is always a beautiful guitar. Great shape, great 'bursts. It looks like a jazz guitar. Like all guitars, before you can know whether or not it's for you- you have to play it. On paper you might think "nah, it's going to be too bright and thin." Then you might play it and say "THAT'S IT! That's my sound!" Or you might say "ye gods, what were they thinking?" But you won't know until you try.
    I've always loved sound of a Strat. In particular, the sound when the switch is between the neck and the middle pickup. Now if you took that sound, and added the depth and fullness of an exquisite hollowbody underneath it, you have the complex and exotic sound that comes from a JP20.
    Cunamara, you nailed it.. you won't know until you try it.
    JD
    Last edited by Max405; 02-01-2017 at 12:12 AM.

  20. #44

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    I've tried an Ibanez JP20 today, the neck is wonderful, very comfortable, more comfortable than a Gibson Johnny Smith or an L5.
    Yes, I've got some friends who own great guitars.
    Ibanez PM is comfortable too, but I prefer the JP, I don't know why, maybe because Joe Pass was a short guy.

  21. #45

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    This is just my experience, I met Joe in 1985 in Paramus, NJ at an Italian restaurant he went to after coming out of a guitar workshop he did for a big music store close by. I asked him a few questions about recordings, players, and jazz in general and I remember asking him about his Ibanez JP20. He replied ; "well, they pay me to play it, besides it's a good enough axe to take anywhere and he didn't have to worry about getting it banged up because he had free replacements. In addition, he mentioned that his favorite guitars he left at home and one of them was a D'Aquisto Excel, and some ES175's he had among others. I kept asking him about the JP20 models but he just told me that he said all he was going to say. I knew exactly what that meant. Years later I bought a used JP20, and no matter what setting I had in my Fender Twin it sounded thin and sterile, so I sold it within 30 days. In my opinion, I think Ibanez made a design mistake setting the pickup so far from the neck, it might have something to do with the tone. It is a beautiful instrument I have to say. Years latter I played a friends Epiphone Joe Pass model and wasn't thrilled by it either. Joe sounded best playing his 175 IMO.


    Cheers,
    Arnie..

  22. #46

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    Notice some pics I posted of my own 1980 JP20 above, so thought I'd bring things up to date - the guitar now has a floating CC-type pickup up against the fingerboard (John Anthony Guitars aka JAG), and I put in a spare gold cover low-wind alnico 3 PAF type made by Ben Fletcher in place of the stock pickup (which of course I still have). Could not bear to cut the original pickguard, so I modded the Art Deco style one I made - the CC attaches to that with a tab. Have to say I do prefer the CC pickup, but you could make a case for the humbucker, despite it's position - theres a 3-way mini switch fixed under the pickguard scroll, that allows selection of either or both pickups.

    Did Joe Pass NOT care much for his Ibanez JP20??-jp2003-jpgDid Joe Pass NOT care much for his Ibanez JP20??-jp2004-jpg

  23. #47

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    That must be a nice upgrade to an already excellent guitar.
    Ive said it before, I would still have my JP20 if the neck was a little fuller. I loved the sound of it. It sustained for days and it had a sort of Hollowbody Strat sound that I favored. It was a tremendously well made guitar.
    If Joe Pass didn't care for his JP20, he sure did an amazing job of fooling me. Some of the greatest solo guitar performances came from Joe and the JP20. That guitar has no limitations. It has a sweet-spot that rewards you when you find it.
    Joe D

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max405
    That must be a nice upgrade to an already excellent guitar.
    Ive said it before, I would still have my JP20 if the neck was a little fuller. I loved the sound of it. It sustained for days and it had a sort of Hollowbody Strat sound that I favored. It was a tremendously well made guitar.
    If Joe Pass didn't care for his JP20, he sure did an amazing job of fooling me. Some of the greatest solo guitar performances came from Joe and the JP20. That guitar has no limitations. It has a sweet-spot that rewards you when you find it.
    Joe D
    Thank you - the CC pickup does certainly give the option of using what you might call a more classic kind of jazz tone - useful for me anyhow. To be honest, when I bought the guitar, I was young and knew very little of pickup placement considerations and other technical issues to think about with hollowbody arch top guitars. I just thought it was a cool-looking guitar, and surely Mr Pass knew what he was doing? (possibly he didn't! ), and I did really like the neck (still do, it suits me very well). Only over time did I become aware that it wasn't universally liked, largely due to the pickup position. But I've used it happily enough over the years, and still do.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meggy
    Thank you - the CC pickup does certainly give the option of using what you might call a more classic kind of jazz tone - useful for me anyhow. To be honest, when I bought the guitar, I was young and knew very little of pickup placement considerations and other technical issues to think about with hollowbody arch top guitars. I just thought it was a cool-looking guitar, and surely Mr Pass knew what he was doing? (possibly he didn't! ), and I did really like the neck (still do, it suits me very well). Only over time did I become aware that it wasn't universally liked, largely due to the pickup position. But I've used it happily enough over the years, and still do.
    This guitar is a Joe Pass signature model.
    It is setup the same way his guitar was setup. That space in between the pickup and the end of the neck was there for a reason. That's where he picked his notes.
    Its a great guitar you have there. Enjoy it.
    Jd

  26. #50

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    I eventually sold my JP-20 because I came to the conclusion that I liked the ES-175 model better (I like the shorter scale). I think Joe Pass felt the same way. That said, the JP-20 is a great guitar and the workmanship on those is top notch.

    If you pick between the neck and the PUP on a JP-20, you can get a great jazz tone.