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I was looking for some thoughts on the two. I have a johnny smith on my l5c but it seems a bit "thin" and I was wondering if a fuller size humbucker would sound a little fatter. Anyway I'm looking for a comparison between the johnny smith and the hand wound Armstrong paf if anyone's had experience with the two I'd love to hear your opinions.
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02-15-2014 11:21 PM
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I happen to have both. But, the only way to give a really accurate comparison between the two, would be to try them both on the very same guitar. That ain't happening.
Originally Posted by Comeau
The Gibson JS is on a Heritage built D'Angelico Excel. It is a bit thin. The hand wound KA (floater) is on an Aaron Cowles built Unity. I sent the pick guard with the existing floating PAF style pup still attached to it. I asked Kent to put one of his lower wound, lower out put PAF style (dual coil humbucker) pups on it. But, I also had him upgrade the volume pot, install a tone pot and also instal a treble bleed cap. The Unity is now the best sounding acoustic arch top in my collection . . when running through my 1970 Fender Pro Reverb. Pure heaven!
You may want to place a call to Kent and tell him exactly what you're after . . then be guided by his recommendations You'll not be disappointed.Last edited by Patrick2; 02-16-2014 at 02:22 PM.
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Thanks for the advise. I was going to try changing pots and put a higher value capasitor to maybe get some more roll off on the tone pot and "darken" it up a bit.
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I would be concerned about it sounding thin and "muffled" with a tone capacitor that rolls off treble. The Johnny Smith floating humbucker is always going to have that "thin" character. If you are looking for a fatter sound, have you tried different flatwound strings or going to a higher gauge?
If you are using a TOM ABR-1 saddle, changing to a wood rosewood saddle and bridge would also help to fatten up the tone.
Talking to Kent Armstrong is a very good idea. You won't be the first one to ask him for a full-sized humbucker tone in his 12-pole PAF-style floater.
For myself, I have been meaning to hide-glue two strips of spruce or western red cedar under the feet of the ebony bridge* and fit them to the top to see if I can get a warmer fatter tone out of a tonally thin guitar. Or fashion a D'Aquisto-style asymmetric wide base out of spruce or western red cedar and glue it under the ebony bridge. One of my betters would soon come along to disabuse me of this kooky idea.
*Not on an original vintage Gibson ebony bridge with the MOP inlays but an easily replaced third-party ebony or rosewood bridge.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 02-16-2014 at 05:43 AM.
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Thanks for the reply. It has a rosewood bridge on it now.the thing is I have to change the pickguard it's pretty corroded so since I'm doing that I figured I'd give a different pickup a shot since I'm not to thrilled with the js.
Yea I know the string gauge is probably a big factor but I'm stubborn haha
I currently use d'addario chromes flats 11's sometimes 12's. I'd like to try a different brand but d'addario is really all they sell locally.
Perhaps I should have posted about string brand and gauge.
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My '77 L-5CN has a Lollar JS, which I chose because it had an authentically low impedance and a slightly more full range response, less mid boost and less treble roll off. I use .013 GHS White Bronze on that guitar (usually) and it has no tone control. I have the same pickup on a Trenier Special, where I use .012s. I use 1.5 - 2.0 mm faux tortoise picks with a nice rounded edge profile.
I'm not sure I know what you mean be thin. A mini humbucker will naturally have a little more treble than a full size HB IMO, but not necessarily less of anything else. I like a pretty flat response on an amp, but be careful, that's pretty hard to get on a Fender style amp with big bass and treble boosts. I have been known to cut the treble below flat on occasion, but it's more likely I boost the mids at 800 or so.
Here's a vid of the L-5. Is this thin to you? We might just have different ears!
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Always loved the sound of your 77 L5CN, kamlapati. Perhaps Comeau meant something which sounds like this (I would describe it as ebullient):
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Mitch is a beautiful player. And I would be so happy with that tone too!
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Beautiful playing by both gentleman !
Don't get me wrong I'm not that unhappy with my tone really. It's pretty darn close to where I'd like it but just a bit "thin" sorry I don't know how else to describe it. Maybe it's not punchy/ thudy enough if that makes sence.
Jabberwocky is prob right I should go up in string gauge.i really dig Doug's tone here.
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Kamlapati is the one with the real experience with the L5C with JS here. If you should listen to anyone, it is he to whom you should be listening. He gave great hints as to string gauge, picks and amp settings. Originally Posted by Comeau
Me? I am still groping my way and I love it.
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I really like that too, great tone, great playing. But it's not an L-5, and it looks like he has a top mounted soapbar PU? Hard to get THAT sound out of an L-5 with a floater. Originally Posted by Comeau
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Well, Doug Raney's playing a guitar with a P-90 in this video. If it is the tone you're after, a P-90 is a P-90. Floaters that can get you there are a McCarty unit and a DeArmond FHC or Rhythm Chief. All single coil. These are vintage and can be found from vintage dealers, from eBay, or from private sellers on forums or online classified. I chose the tone of the P-90, McCarty, and FHC for my guitars, but you maybe you don't want to take a chance on a vintage pickup. In that case, I am sure some of the new pickup makers like Lollar, Armstrong, and others can make pups that sound like these, and they might even already have something in their product line. I just don't know the new pickups that well. Heck, I was going to start a thread asking for which new pickups would sound exactly like the FHC.
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I think that guitar is an ibanez gb model. Im pretty sure he plays an l7c on his early recordings which I Also really dig the tone on.
Maybe when I say "thin" I mean too treble'y.?
My gear is l7c double johnny smiths through henriksen 110 jazz amp. My settings on amp are basically everything at 9o'clock give or take with reverb. I like my tone overall but since I'm changing pickguard I figured I might try a new pup idk
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I think you're right. Then it's not a P-90. Hard to tell on the screen of my ipod touch... Originally Posted by Comeau
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A while back when I first came across those videos of doug I went crazy trying to figure out what guitar he was using and the closest I came was an ibanez gb20 but the headstock logo and p90 are off but maybe it's a mod. Who knows.
Either way his playing and tone are fantastic
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it has a p90 in the video, guess it was added instead of the floater.
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From what I know, which isn't as much as some of the other posters, is.....
the 3 videos all have different builds of guitar. That's a lot of difference right there.
Then add: amps, strings, picks, and recording techniques/fidelity, plus techniques.
My 1965 Johnny Smith was treble. Call it thin? One Gibson JS floater p/up.
Acoustically - treble. Thin ?
It might be the guitar. And p/ups usually amplify the guitar.
I used to turn the treble on my amp to 0, and boost the mid control all the way, and add bass.
Guess what I got ..... flub, no woodiness, no warmth.
Sold the guitar. Got an L5 CES. I know others who went the same route.
Kamlapati: I wish my JS sounded like your L5, but your tone in the video is, yes, much brighter than
95% of jazz guitars I have heard, sounds more like a flattop. And that's great, esp. if the amplified sound is that pure.
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I've owned both. KA sounds fatter and fuller. Originally Posted by Comeau
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Thanks woody. Perfect answer
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While I don't pretend my Epi Regent as being representative of all Acoustic Archtop with a floater (not even carved top), I realized it sounded thin and bright no matter what pickup I changed: from the stock to a KA and a Bartolini 5J.
Rolled off tone and 13-56 did not fix it, it is still not the classic thick Gibson tone I like and my next attempt is with a routed humbucker. unplugged it sounds quite good, better than my Joe Pass, amplified the JP smoke it...
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I really don't notice a difference between the Lollar JS on my new guitar and the Armstrong PAF (both floaters) on a virtually identical guitar I tried out last year but did not purchase. The floating Lollar JS is extremely close to the mounted Lollar HB in my other guitar. Slightly more acoustic (or less electric) but only a touch less fat, and not enough to bother me. I use heavy flats and a heavy pick so that probably helps.
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about the tone with a JS pickup, please take a look at bireli lagrene's tone whit his gibson super V BJB pickup: I suggest the duets with sylvain luc: it is "thin" but flat, woody and rich.
this one for example:
about strings, consider you may always take an higher gauge only for the first E and B strings;
about the pickup, before to give up with the one you already have, and try a new one, I'd spend some more time on the eq settings on the amp.
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When I think "thin" tone I tend to think of the stereotypical clean Strat tone- glassy, mostly mid and upper partials, not much bass. Some people sound great with that tone, I am not one of them.
I have used an Allparts JS style floater and an Armstrong PAF-0 on my Cushman archtop. They were different, the Allparts being more even but thinner sounding and the PAF-0 being fatter but having a strong upper-mid hump that just did not suit my particular guitar and/or my technique, amps, etc. To me the PAF-0 had a hard edged attack which is not what I am looking for; someone else might hear it as clarity, I'd guess. I talked with Kent and he suggested using a 500k volume, 250k tone and playing with caps from .033 on up and settled on a .047. That helped. I ended up going back to the Allparts with the 500k/250k and a .047 cap which was closer to the sound I wanted.
After listening to a lot of Peter Bernstein and hearing his tone be in the direction of what I was looking for- maybe a touch farther towards the Jim Hall spectrum from PB's tone- I decided to mod a Classic 57 with a neck mount bracket. In the process I killed the pickup and sent it to Kent for repair, which he did and the outcome was fantastic. I suspect that Kent could have done it from scratch based on his PAF-0 for less than I ended up paying in total for the pickup and the repairs. There's a thread on this elsewhere on the forum with a couple of pictures of the final product. I'm delighted and have been enjoying it a lot. It has the same pots and cap as the Allparts
I think the difference is not primarily one of impedance etc., since in my case the impedances of the three pickups are pretty close (around 8k) but one of how much string the pickup sees. The JS coils see a shorter section of string and are about midway between a single coil and a full sized humbucker. IMHO that's why it sounds thinner than a humbucker but fatter than a single coil. Pickup covers probably have an effect, possibly softening the attack (which is part of what I wanted in my sound- I want very little "thwack" in the note).
If I was starting over I'd talk to Kent about making a covered Classic 57 style humbucker with a neck mount bracket. Probably be cheaper plus he's a heck of a nice guy to talk to.Last edited by Cunamara; 06-06-2014 at 11:17 PM.
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The wider the appature of the p/up the bigger the tone will be. So The KA PAF floater hand made will sound bigger than the JS style one. I have one on my Eastman 810CE alnico version, LOVE IT!
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