The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I’m loving my Eastman AR 371, but the stock Armstrong PU seems a little too “middle of the road” or a little too acoustic sounding, for lack of a better description.

    After exhaustively reading reviews and watching videos, I’ve narrowed the field down to either a Seymour Duncan Seth Lover or a Gibson Classic 57.

    I’m leaning towards the 57, because I’m worried that the Lover might be a little too revealing and unforgiving of my playing style.

    Here’s my typical setup and playing style:
    Eastman AR 371, Chrome flat wound .012
    Polytone Mini Brute III or Blackface Deluxe Reverb, usually at a very quiet volume
    Play fingerstyle (sloppily) with thumb and fingers

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  3. #2

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    Not trying at all to jump your post, but I think you 'might' find this information helpful.

    I was at NAMM last Saturday and had an opportunity to speak with one of the very knowledgeable Eastman archtop managers (Mark, I believe), about my Eastman AR880CE Pisano and pickup choices. My Eastman has a set-in Kent Armstrong pickup which I understand was made here in the US and not overseas.

    I explained I was wondering if there was another pickup he would recommend for my guitar that would 'tamp down' some of the 'brightness' and potentially create a 'warmer' sound.

    He immediately recommended a Lollar Low Wind Imperial Humbucker pickup. However when I read the writeup on the pickup on the Lollar site I was a bit surprised to read that compared with the regular Imperial Humbucker the Low Wind model has a brighter tone.

    Here is the entire write up:

    Based on lower output PAF's often found in vintage 335's, this pickup set has a brighter overall tone than the Lollar Imperials. Bottom strings hold together without distorting noticeably longer than most humbuckers. Combine this with an overall "toppier" tone (as compared to the Imperials) and the result gives exceptional definition for any chord voicing and great presence for coming through a mix. Alnico 2 magnets in the neck & alnico 5 magnets in the bridge are de-gaussed to specific levels, unique to the neck and bridge positions. Nickel silver pickup cover, single conductor braided shield wire- options available. Sold as singles or as sets.

    Maybe we can both get input about our pickup quests from the knowledgeable folks on this forum.

  4. #3

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    I have also been thinking about a humbucker replacement for my Eastman. In regards to the Lollar low wind, it does say relative to the standard Lollar Imperial. Without comparing the standard KA and the Lollar low wind I see no reason why the low wind would not meet your criteria of taming the brightness. From what I have read about the Lollar I wouldn't be surprised if it was a warmer sound, which may be more the reason for the recommendation than controlling the brightness.

    I would be interested to hear from those with experience with any of these pickups as well. I am still not fully satisfied that a Lollar would avoid sounding too muddy in my archtop. I like a bit of treble bite, which I find helps with string separation when playing chords. Too much and you end up with an acoustic guitar sound. I am still trying to find the right balance.

  5. #4

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    I have a AR 403. I have tried a Jon Moore pu which I had spec'd very close to a Gibson 57 classic and it sounded great in that guitar. I don't have the comparative info you're looking for since I have not tried the Seth Lover or Imperial but I would be surprised if any of the 3 pu's mentioned are not a great upgrade for that guitar regardless of which one you choose.

  6. #5

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    I've got the AR 371, and a similar setup....flatwound, through a SF Princeton Reverb, chord melody style with fingers. I use a pick to for some tunes, and depending on the gig/tune.

    I replaced the stock Kent Armstrong HPAN-1 (not a terrible pickup IMO but yes...sorta meh), with a humbucker sized P90 from Pete Biltoft. It's a good match for my style, and for this guitar. I am a huge P90 fan, and Pete makes some of the very best. Fairly quiet for a large single coil, super articulate and fantastic midrange, which is what I want. Not trebly and mid-scooped like the KA stock pickup, not at all. It's still a fairly bright guitar, but that's pretty easy to dial out a bit.

    I know you didn't ask about it....but I thought I confuse the issue some more

  7. #6

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    As a ( big) generalisation, pickups with alnico 2 magnets like the (neck) lollar tend to sound fatter and 'warmer'. I have found the low wind lollar to be pretty fat-sounding in a slaman carved-top guitar. I have no experience of eastmans, though.

    That said, the effect of pickup swaps tends to be limited in my experience, though I know others hear significant changes with different pickups.

  8. #7

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    It may be relevant to know that Foulds Music in the UK offer the AR371 with a Bare Knuckle Mule as an option on new Eastmans they supply. Bare Knuckles have a great reputation, but you will need to ask the good people at Foulds why they specifically offer the Mule (or the Manhattan p90) as options.

  9. #8

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    Of course, Engine Swap, we're all assuming that you've tried lowering the pups aways from the strings before you make any changes???

  10. #9
    Yep - tried many permutations of PU and polepiece height. Also tried it was 4-5 different amps (tube and SS)

    Not looking a big change, just a little more bottom and mids to balance out the highs.

  11. #10

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    Most Boutique PAF's are exc. choices. Some include Manilus, Sheptone, Wolfetone ,Fralin, Vintage Vibe, even DiMarzio 36th Anniversary PAF's are exc. If you want a more single coil response tone opt for a low wind Alnico 2 magnet say 7.2k or so. Fatter tone go for an Alnico 5 magnet 8.2k or there abouts. Just find a used one on TGP Emporium, and see which one is the best deal!

  12. #11

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    Steve Holst talked me into the Seth Lover when he built my laminate archtop and I really like it. It's somewhat bright, and very clear and articulate, but the brightness dials down nicely if that's what you want. I have no problem getting the classic 175 tone.

    I haven't owned the 57, but lots of people like them. From what I've heard it's a little darker pickup. Frankly, I don't think you'd be disappointed either way.

    Hope you get the sound you want.

    Jonathan

  13. #12

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    I have an AR403 in which I replaced the kent Armstrong hpag-1 with a Gibson classic 57 and am happy with it.

    The classic 57 isn't worlds apart tonally but it has a tad more color and warmth than the stock one. I like that. The stock one was fairly clear in an acoustic manner and a tad brighter I thought.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by StevieB

    He immediately recommended a Lollar Low Wind Imperial Humbucker pickup. However when I read the writeup on the pickup on the Lollar site I was a bit surprised to read that compared with the regular Imperial Humbucker the Low Wind model has a brighter tone.

    Here is the entire write up:

    Based on lower output PAF's often found in vintage 335's, this pickup set has a brighter overall tone than the Lollar Imperials. Bottom strings hold together without distorting noticeably longer than most humbuckers. Combine this with an overall "toppier" tone (as compared to the Imperials) and the result gives exceptional definition for any chord voicing and great presence for coming through a mix. Alnico 2 magnets in the neck & alnico 5 magnets in the bridge are de-gaussed to specific levels, unique to the neck and bridge positions. Nickel silver pickup cover, single conductor braided shield wire- options available. Sold as singles or as sets.

    As explained in Lindy Fralin's website low wind in general means less power, less mids, more highs.
    Have a look at Fralin's website, "Choosing a pickup" section

  15. #14

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    I have a 335 type guitar with two seth lovers and an SG with two gibson 57s.

    I really like both of them, and they both have a good tone for jazz.
    Maybe the 57's sound is more versatile.
    (I not good at describing and talking about tone using words)

  16. #15
    Thanks for all the well-reasoned responses.

    Really tough to decide. The tone with the KA is pretty close. I've only been playing Jazz/Archtops for a year and suspect that my technique is part of the puzzle. Recently switching to a Polytone got me closer. Still leaning towards the 57 - I'll see if I can get a decent used one.

  17. #16

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    The recommendation for a lollar, low-wind is an odd one because the low wind pickups are brighter than a standard PAF.

    The cheap pickup I like is the dimarzio 36th anniversary pickup. The classic 57 is a little too bottom heavy I think. If you can get a non-potted pickup with a slight coil mismatch you will get a better sounding pickup IMO.

  18. #17

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    If I may take an attempt on myth-matched coils and maybe potting too:

    Around 1978-80 Jeff Baxter, a VERY smart person, wrote a staggeringly un-smart (in his revised opinion) article advocating the careful matching of HB coils for a sweeter sound.

    For his stated reasons (It does not work.), and possibly some other reasons (It is easy to wreck a coil trying this even if you know what you are doing.), he retracted the article a month or two later.

    No shame in a "swing and a miss", and major respect for stepping up and fixing it.

    *************

    And hoping we can not devolve into TGP hysteria,...

    The idea of matched or mismatched coils requires you to decide what to match. If you match the DC resistance, then in the 1800's someone could point out that this ill-conceived.

    If you wanted to make a measurement of the resonant peak of each coil - while built into the PU - then at least we would be out of TGP myth-dom. But this would raise other issues such as the design of some HB pickups with differing magnetic structure on one coil vs. the other. You could have identically wound coils producing notably different sounds.

    Also if one suggests some finesse within this, such a certain degree of "mis-match", how do you measure this? One could easily propose that the coils would have to be significantly different in the amount of wire used (and so differing DC resistance) to be matched in their resonant peak in some PU designs.

    Then there is the matter of scatter winding with its random or pseudo-random effects.

    And how are you reversing the phase of the coils? Are they wound in the same direction with the leads reversed? Do you wind one in the opposite direction? This has an effect. Yes, a minor one - but once we talk about "mis-matched" coils and perceived (or possibly "interpreted") effects on sound I think anything goes.

    Whatever floats ones boat is of course just fine. And certainly taking some turns off of a PU coil makes it sound different. But it takes some significant changes to the coil.

    Fine-tuning the DC resistance of one coil vs. another is getting into subtleties that become conceptually odd if the PU design means the each coil is already different in its actual structure in the PU.

    In my opinion. (An under-used phrase, in my opinion.)

    *******************

    Potting can have different effects.

    The main attraction is when it somewhat dampens the PU cover from vibrating relative to the rest of the PU.

    A "nickel-silver" (not actually NiAg) PU cover will generate a signal if it vibrates relative to the rest of the PU.

    Those squealing P-90s that get better with a plastic (vs. metal) cover are an easy way to demo this.

    The wax potting you often see used does a pretty good job of damping squeal from the PU cover.

    Wax potting also does OK at keeping some of the PU structure from vibrating relative to the rest of the PU.

    But as Jazz players, major squeal is often not a major concern.

    And most wax-potting does nothing for vibration within the coil.

    What can happen, at any volume, is that the PU can act somewhat micro-phonically. Tap your PU with a piece of wood and listen. Some PUs will transmit this very loudly, other will transmit almost nothing - and some of that can be the PU moving relative to the strings as you whack away with your hickory stick.

    A wax potted PU often has a still notable micro-phonic response.

    So yeah, un-potted PU will often be noticeably micro-phonic, and you can hear it.

    Wax potted will often be somewhat less microphonic.

    And typically, a resin potted PU will be very un-micro-phonic.

    Unlike relatively small mis-matches in coil DC resistance, micro-phoncs can be measured in a way that is consistent with what you (and even the audience) can hear when playing.

    In my opinion. Well I have made a decent pile of PU's and even actually measured the response, which arguably has no bearing on the usefulness of my opinion.

    Chris
    Last edited by PTChristopher2; 01-30-2014 at 05:27 PM. Reason: spelling

  19. #18

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    Chris,

    I'll give you my take on it from a pragmatic point of view. (Not that yours was not pragmatic)

    The original gibson pickups were not potted and were hand wound so they almost never matched in terms of DC resistance. Additionally they were not potted.

    The variation of dc resistance and other factors made for a pickup which was not perfectly hum canceling. Additionally, as you point out, the lack of potting makes the pickup slightly microphonic. The microphonics pickup more of the physical vibration of the acoustic sound of the guitar as opposed to strictly the magnetic field of the string. This results in a pickup which lets more of the guitar's actual tone come through.

    The slightly worse hum canceling of the mismatched coils give a slightly richer harmonic response (along with a teeny bit of noise).

    In reality, the microphonics and noise are not an issue. I have been using the fralin unbuckers for a while now. They feature unpotted and mismatched coils. In their case, the screw coil is significantly hotter than the other cable for a different purpose - they want you to be able to switch to single coil mode and have the coil that's still on be more comparable to a standard strat single coil.

    So in my case, the mismatch is severe but it still effectively cancels hum and the squeal is a non-issue, even with dumble style overdrive at loud volumes.

  20. #19

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    100% agreed that you can have a major difference in coil size yet still have very effective hum reduction.

    After seeing an Alembic guitar on Don Kirshner (or maybe it was Burt Sugarman) I went and made a guitar with a single dummy coil in the middle position. It worked very well to greatly reduce hum even though its value (as DC resistance) was a split between the two active single coil PUs.

    The middle "dummy" PU had no magnet at all. In effect it was a hum generator set 180 degrees out of phase wit the PUs. So I buffered the PU and the dummy coil , then mixed them onboard. Worked as advertised.

    Unbuffered, I think the dummy coil would have had some RLC resonance issues, but I have no idea really.

    Chris

  21. #20

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    Sounds like that might be similar in concept to what suhr is doing with the SSC system. I've known other guys to have success with dummy coils. Isn't that what Eric Johnson does with his strat bridge pickup?

    I wonder why the dummy coil concept never got more press?

  22. #21

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    ,... as the OP understands that topics drift "off-topic" in the course of discourse,...


    >>> I wonder why the dummy coil concept never got more press?

    In my opinion a dummy coil really wants a buffer, which means at least two on-board buffers.

    Otherwise you get the hum canceling from the dummy coil, but also get some unwanted (presumably) shifts in the resonance of the passive RLC (resistor, inductor, capacitor) high-impedance circuit in the guitar.

    So a dummy coil system is more complex than the mainstream guitar market seemingly wants.

    Also, there are quite a few humbucking designs that also keep things nice and bright.

    It may only seem like a single lifetime ago, but the late 70's and Alembic were in an era of pretty early attempts at stacked HB pickups and other solutions. I think the complexity of the dummy coil and the lack of a real "need" today, resigned it to the backroom of guitardom.

    They are still used in custom Strat setups. I have no idea if Eric johnson uses them. Notably, I am sure many are used without on-board buffers, so there is a different view than mine on the (electronic) resonance issue.

    I only worked with bare coils. But a non magnetized ferrous core might also be useful.

    Chris

  23. #22
    Here is my experience with my 371 and a Seth Lover. As has been stated, the Seth Lover is unpotted. It is a very clear and articulate pickup. The 371 is a very light, resonant guitar with a big acoustic sound. In combination with the Seth Lover, a lot of the subtle nuances of your playing will come through. I'm in a jazz ensemble class with another 175 and a 335. My guitar has a unique voice. This is not good or bad, and the other guitars sound great as well.
    But I think a lot of people want the more classic 175 sound and I think this would come with a potted pickup, at least on a 371. I have a couple other guitars with '59s on them and I love this pickup. Thought about it in the 371 but went with the Seth. The '59 is darker, bassier, again not bad qualities just different. I think that would work well on a 371 also.
    Just my take from personal experience.

  24. #23

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    Gibson didn't start potting pickups until fairly recently. The classic 175 sounds were never with potted pickups.

    Never liked the seth lover pickup for jazz.

  25. #24

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    A few thoughts...

    I think pickups are like anything else: examine your needs/wants and then work towards them. So there are no hard and fast rules about pickup A being "better" or "worse" than pickup B. Rather pickup A is different than pickup B and now the question is which better suites the application. That being said my own personal favorite is the DiMarzio 36th Anniversary. I have found that it works well in a lot of different guitars. It's hot enough to be set quite far from the strings (that's important to me because I play over the pickup a lot and I don't want to touch the screws with my nails) but not so hot that it loses too much detail. It's potted so it doesn't make a lot of noise when I do make contact with it (and that does happen no matter how hard I try to avoid it). And tonally I find that it's smooth in the lows and mids but has a lot of detail in the high end which I like. It's also very noise resistant. That does come into play a lot more often than I think a lot of people consider, especially if I'm playing around my Macbook. It's amazing how many pickups make a horrible noise whenever my finger touches the mouse pad.

    As for the Lollar Low Wind, I agree with what has been said in this thread about under wound pickups but the Lollar Low Wind is not really under wound. It's a low wind relative to the standard Lollar Imperial and the Imperial s one of the hottest PAF style pickups that I've tried. I've played the Low Wind Imperial in about five or six guitars and for a neck pickup, I thought it worked vey well.

  26. #25

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    jim's right about the lollar low wind. It's 7k vs 7.5k for the standard humbuckers that most people make so I'll retract my original statement about it potentially being bright though it will be brighter than the 57 classic or the dimarzio 36th.