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More good info - thanks!
Didn't really think about output vs. pickup height. I too play right over the pickup and it gets in the way if it's too high.
Jim, I'm coming from the same place - smooth low and mids with clear highs. The stock KA does the highs fine, but the mids and lows don't seem to be there.
Going the add the SD 59 to the pile of PUs to consider.
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01-31-2014 02:11 PM
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EngineSwap,
Forums are a funny place. You get some people with some pretty strong opinions. But if you are in pursuit of your own personal sound, it is YOUR ears that matter. No one has any more or less credibility than you.
Wouldn't it be great if there were some easy way to preview all these pickups in the same guitar?
- Seymour Duncan SH-55 Seth Lover Model. A modern pickup that reproduces Seth Lover's '55 prototype design in great detail: a nickel silver cover (not brass one), long bottom plate, plain #42 enamel wire, Alnico 2 magnets, wooden spacer, and black paper tape. Seth and Seymour were great friends, and Seth gave Seymour all of the original specs. In addition, Seymour owns Gibson's pickup winding machine from the '50s, and all SH-55's are wound on it.
- Seymour Duncan SH-1 '59 Model. A replica of late '50s PAFs, gives a slightly fatter sound, more known as a signature tone of famous blues/rock guitarists of the 1960s.
- Gibson "'57 Classic" Gibson's most regular take on the PAF. Not scatter wound, wax potted. Since the mid-'80s this is the standard pickup on most higher level guitars.
- Gibson Burstbucker. Gibson's newest take on the P.A.F. Scatter wound, not wax potted, these are the closest replicas Gibson makes. These pickups come stock on the Historic line of Reissue Les Pauls.
- DiMarzio PAF (DP103). One of the earliest PAF replicas, wax potted with Alnico 5 magnets, 4-conductor cable for split and series/parallel wiring.
- DiMarzio PAF Classic Bridge (DP195) and Neck (DP194). PAF pickups with pre-installed covers, wax-dipped twice (before cover installation and after).
- DiMarzio Virtual Hot PAF (DP214), Virtual PAF Bridge (DP197), Virtual PAF Neck (DP196). Pickups built with patented Virtual Vintage technology that gives a more balanced pickup characteristic.
- Bare Knuckle Pickups The Mule. An accurate scatter wound PAF replica: The Mule uses a solid nickel baseplate and cover, #42 AWG plain enamel wire, unpolished Alnico 4 magnets, maple spacer and butyrate bobbins.
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The DP103 is the 36th Anniversary. It's actually just a few years old.
Originally Posted by bluemusic4us
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Since you mention that one of the PUs above specify #42 AWG, note that any talk of DC resistance (often in the 5 to 15K ohm range for HB PUs) is meaningless unless you also specify the bobbin and the wire gauge.
42 is probably the most common gauge used throughout PU history, but there are 43 and 44 gauges used, and they have more ohms per foot.
Also, the gauge and the thickness of the wire coating will affect the density of the coil.
And there are more factors that make DC resistance (while easy to measure) shaky at best as a comparison tool. If one needed a single number, then resonant frequency would be beter. But even that would miss some things that contribute to sound (like a P-90 morphology vs. a tele rhythm PU).
I understand why DC resistance it popular to use, but it only really makes sense as a comparative tool when all else is equal between two PUs.
In my opinion.
Chris
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A good example of how DC resistance can be misleading in isolation is Lollar's CC pickup. It measures around 3.2 kohms , far less resistance than a gretsch filtertron or tele pickup, but sounds thick, fat and loud - comparable to a HB.
It uses 38 gauge wire, which is a long way from 42 or 42, so again another reason to perhaps avoid looking at these things in isolation.
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FWIW, a couple of years ago, I wanted to warm up my L5, because the stock 57 Classic sounded a bit thin to me. After reading a bit and getting the idea that a higher wind would warm things up, I spoke with Jason Lollar, who confirmed the idea, sold me a high wind Imperial and it worked beautifully. They have a good return policy as well, so not a huge hassle to try it out.
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Those Lollars look nice, but a little too much to experiment with.
As mentioned, just about any of the PAF clones mentioned in this thread would probably do the trick. I decided against the Lover, since I do hit PU with my fingers.
i found a nice, clean used Duncan 59 neck, for $50. I'll report back. Should arrive mid-week. I'll upgrade the pots as long as I'm in there. I'll try to record some before/after clips FWIW.
Thanks again for all the great responses!
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i have the lovers in my Heritage eagle and I just lower them a few 16ths of an inch and never hit them with a pick or fingers.
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I own a 371 and went through 10+ pickups (after 5 it became a quest). I had the opposite experience but the same reaction: I thought the Korean Kent Armstrong PU was too muddy, definitely middle of the road, very little detail, and just flat. I wouldn't call it acoustic at all. Originally Posted by Engine Swap
Keep in mind as you are looking that you are basically stacking all of the things possible that make a guitar sound fat / muddy / thick / etc: laminate, thick hollowbody, full-size humbucker, 24 3/4" scale, heavy-ish flatwounds, and plucking with your fingers.
If you want less mud—and that is what I struggled with mightily—you need to go with a pickup that is less hot, i.e. has a "vintage" output wind. As you go towards less output, you will get less compression and therefore less low end, but that less compression is more revealing or "less forgiving" as you say. So it's a balance. You can move the pickup away from the strings which will cut the bass, but I've found you also lose detail and overtones, and things can get anemic. I personally like a low output pickup close to the strings.
I recorded all of the pickups I tried, but not until the last half did I do it in a controlled way so I only have 7 to share. I also have a Blackface Deluxe Reverb clone—an Allen Sweet Spot—so my thoughts and recordings are based on the 371 going through that, with just a cable and the spring reverb. I am using 12-56 coated Ernie Ball roundwounds which are not as bright as other roundwounds but not as dark as Chromes. My desired tone may be slightly different than yours too as I want some fuzziness to the attack and acoustic body, but still a pretty thick sound, almost like a Gretsch, but less compressed, like a single coil DeArmond goldfoil or Telecaster neck. That being said, given your "warmth stacking" with fingers and flatwounds, you could maybe imagine how these pickups could work for you.
My ultimate fave:
EMG H1N (passive)
This is billed as a vintage PAF by EMG. I gave it a go since it was $35 on eBay. I love this pickup. It has guts, and clarity, and never gets overwhelmed in the low end. I can't get anyone else on board with how awesome it is because I think EMG has a high-gain shredder reputation, but I love it. Sounds really open without the compression that many of the hotter PAFs had.
Runner-ups that I would have been happy with:
Dimarzio 36th Anniversary
Got this based on the strength of Jim Soloway's clips on his solidbody. Still a little too much low end for me on a hollowbody but overall had great clarity without sounding shrill. Very similar sounding and equally nice: DiMarzio Air Classic, Duncan Jazz SH2.
Benedetto
This sounded very different that all the others. It's almost like the pickup is EQ'd with the low and highs cut so you get a very mid-focused sound, but still really clear. I quite liked it.
Lollar Lollartron
A repro of a 50's Filtertron. It's really more PAF than modern Filtertron, but this was easily my #2 pick. I loved the clarity but still was a little too compressed for my taste.
Also tried but didn't like:
Lollar El Rayo
Bartolini PBF49
EMG H3
GFS Surf 90 (normally love this one but not on this guitar)
Arcane Gold Coil (sounded like the Surf 90)
BG Pure 90
Here are the clips, please note I switched the mic and position and redid a bunch of them. The ML-19 clips are the most accurate. The AT4081 clips are a little soft/dull ... mic was too far off axis. Make sure to click the link, the embedded SoundCloud player only shows 1 clip. There are 8 tracks total, all labelled.
Let me know if that helps or if you have questions.Last edited by spiral; 02-01-2014 at 09:24 PM.
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Hey Jim, I actually have what I think is an older model of the dp103 by Dimarzio, doesn't look like the current 36th anniv. and someone put a pickup cover on it very poorly aftermarket but didn't wax it. I took that off and have it in the parts bin. Dimarzio couldn't identify it for sure until they saw it without the cover and in higher resolution I had a poor camera phone back then and haven't emailed them back!
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I have an Eastman Jazz Elite 17. It came with a Jason Lollar Imperial HB (standard wind measuring 7.37 K-ohms). One day, I decided to swap it with a Lindy Fralin Pure PAF (measuring 7.73K-ohms). I had the Fralin in my laminate (an Ibanez AF151). I swapped the entire harnesses, so it was quite easy.
I prefer the Lindy Fralin HB in my carved Eastman, and the Lollar in my laminate. The brighter Lollar counters the darker nature of the laminate, and the higher output Fralin balances the acoustic nature of the Eastman (It has a full humbucker sound, without being muddy, or overly bright).
I had an American Kent Armstrong (in the past) in another guitar, and found it to be too bright altogether. I also had a low wind Lollar Imperial in yet another guitar, but prefer the beefier regular wind to the low wind Lollar. The Lollar Imperials are unblalnced coils, and as such the regular wind is not muddy anyway. The low wind was a bit thin sounding to me. The Armstrong & Lollar low winds are indeed fine pickups-just not for me. My favorite do-it-all humbucker is the Fralin Pure PAF, however if I were to split coils, the Fralin Unbucker is the clear choice. I hope my post didn't "muddy" things up for you. Best wishes, Jeff
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Jeez.. all the depth around here. Good reading.
I have not seen the Armstrong Handwound 12 pole expounded upon.. or I missed it. I like the adjustable poles and it seems to get me closer to an acoustic sound than most. Bright is not hard to deal with using EQ.. muddy is.
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i just installed fralin unbuckers in my 339. Very bright sounding. Not at all like a PAF IMO. They sort of split the difference between a PAF and a single coil, like you'd expect. Not sure I'd want them in an eastman since the eastmans are already pretty bright.
Frankly, I like the stock pickups.
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Check out the Duncan Antiquity pu's if your going for that old woody 175, 335 sound. They have a mid honk unlike anything ive tried. Also, they are not to bas heavy. Ive tried just about everything as far as modern PAF goes. Antiquities rule !
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Thanks! I see they have four 'Antiquity' humbuckers. Any rec on the pup to choose for my Eastman AR880CE John Pisano?
Antiquity Jazz Model, Antiquity JB Model, Antiquity Gold Humbucker or Antiquity Humbucker-neck 11014-01?Last edited by StevieB; 02-16-2014 at 11:37 PM.
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I think he meant Antiquity neck 11014-01 or the equivalent Antiquity Gold Humbucker (neck if that is the only one you need).
They should be something like an aged Seth Lover Humbucker.
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Hey
Antiquity Humbucker-neck 11014-01 is the one.
Voiced humbuckers for jazz has never worked for me(except floating ) The duncan Benedetto for instance is the most strange pickup i ever tried.
Hope u find something that works for u /H
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I bought an Eastman 185 MX and love the guitar. The pups from Armstrong is a different issue. When using an overdrive pedal it sounds like if i've wrecked the speakers in my cabinet. I'm a blues/jazz player and need a pickup that will work with both styles. I have had different 335 and 330 guitars and never had this problem. Is there anyone out there that can give me some nice tips of replacement pups?
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mine sounds great with overdrive. Very robben-ford-like. Maybe I'll post a clip tonight.
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Hi, I recommend the swap if someone wants to get closer to the PAF sound, I don't think the KA pickups are bad at all but my experience is that they definitely have a little more middle to them when matched with a solid wood hand carved archtop. I choose the Bare Knuckle Mule as it is the closest thing (in reality probably better as they are consistently made with care) to a PAF. Tim at Bare Knuckle really knows his stuff. He is even referenced in the Wiki page on PAF's that some people might find interesting Originally Posted by newsense
Personally I wanted to swap mine out and really change the tone and after reading up about them I decided to go for the Alumitones made by Lace. Totally different concept and design and I am loving the results, for me this really has been a 'night and day' change. I don't think they are for everyone though as they are a lot more detailed and have a bigger broader sound that depending on your guitar, strings and playing style might not sound traditional enough for you.
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Do you have experience with the BareKnuckle Stormy Monday? That also seems to be a faithful reproduction of PAF pickups according to the description.
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I don't have much experience with floating Eastman pickups (even though I did have an 805 for a short time), but the kent armstrong hpan-1/hpag-1 are paf type and while not high end, they are solid to me and better than some other stock pickups in the same price range. I think some of the other electronics in the eastmans (switch, wiring, tone cap, jack) could be more suspect than the pickup in my opinion from when I had a tech replace it all on my ar403. But still not a problem. I don't like the pickup switch in my t386 for example, it feels cheap to me...but I love everything else.
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I've had three 371s, and tried many different pups in them as I found the stock HB to be a bit flat and limp-wristed.
For me, the best one I tried by far was the Duncan Phat Cat P-90 (a single coil, I know). It just had the perfect balance. Added fullness, bark and bite, but without losing any mellow darkness. It didn't feed back at all, and was actually much quieter (hum free) than the stock HB.
Just a suggestion.
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Could you list all the pickups you tried, just for comparison.
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Going from a humbucker to a p90 would definitely be a big difference and one I wouldn't mind trying at some point. But going from the stock paf type hunbucker to another paf type humbucker is likely going to be a more subtle difference. At least in what I experienced switching from the stock hpag-1 to a classic 57. But I didn't try any others. Some day maybe I'll try a p90 on NY ar403 or replacing the electronics in my t386. Originally Posted by Retroman1969
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