US-made vs Non US-made Archtop Guitars

[Yowech]

I am real surprise with your fast response! I agree with the statement "good guitar is good guitar"... why i curious about this topic simply because most jazz player around me in my country say "you should own a Gibson Archtop. At least one as you will find them different to the rest you may own..." I was thinking it's big money to spend to own a Gibson. But I can easily own a high reputation Asian company Archtop with maybe just 1/3 the money I am going to spend for Gibson. No offense to Gibson as I always love to own one as I think most guitarist dream of owning one of this long historic american brand.

I been a working guitar player for the last 10 years. Playing mainly classical guitar and finger style guitar.. Met lot of guitarist around the world. Played lot of great guitars. So far none of the pro guitarist I met bother who made their guitar. I remember meeting Peter Finger in a guitar fest. He play only his own made guitar. I ask him why he gave up Lakewood, he say what would be better than play your own guitar? Yeah, he is right. Of course, his craft just as good as his skill of playing.

Then recently I decided to step into the world of jazz which I thought years ago it will only be my last genre of music. After suffering for year of health problem. I decided to enter earlier than I wanted to. Totally another world to me. I draw a blank for gear to skill. Owning a luthier made acoustic or classical will be quite common as the price just right. But owning a Archtop from a luthier would be double the price.. And most importantly I don't know who build better Archtop. The only person I came across is Benedetto...

Till I met an old friend of mine who play jazz guitar as amateur for years told me just anything simple to start with.. I was thinking maybe he is right... So, I start scouting for one. Mostly from China, Korea and Indonesia. Personally I so used to playing a fine guitar in acoustic, losing my mind here. Lots of Archtop are laminate which also call pressed top. It seems like pretty common to have laminate construction in Archtop. I notice the legendary ES175 are laminated. Which I also understand why according to the essential purpose.

Well, I love this forum as I learn fast within few weeks of joining this great forum. I would be buying my first ever Archtop by next week. Of course will post some photo to share my joyness ...

[Jim Soloway]

I been a working guitar player for the last 10 years. Playing mainly classical guitar and finger style guitar.. Met lot of guitarist around the world. Played lot of great guitars. So far none of the pro guitarist I met bother who made their guitar. I remember meeting Peter Finger in a guitar fest. He play only his own made guitar. I ask him why he gave up Lakewood, he say what would be better than play your own guitar? Yeah, he is right. Of course, his craft just as good as his skill of playing.

I had no idea Peter Finger was building guitars. He's a remarkable player with technical execution that is just off-the-charts good.

There are LOTS of quality instruments being made in every price range so my advice would be to decide what properties you want in a guitar and then find out which guitars come closest. This is a good place to find some answers but first you need to have a set of criteria for what works for you. How do you feel about weight? What sort of neck profile do you like? What sort of tone are you after? How loud do you intend to get? Is there a body size you prefer? These are the sorts of questions that relate to actually playing the instrument and only you can decide. Once you've made your list, then take a look at what comes closest to your ideal and go from there.

[oldane]

I doubt I'll ever own anything built outside the contiguous 48 states of my beloved USA. That's just the way it is with me.

I too will doubt that you'll ever own any guitar made by an non US company, Patrick. But that's your patriotism more than the quality of the guitars, I figure.

I'm a Dane living in Denmark, so I don't have that patriotic bond with US. However, when I come to think about it, all my guitars are US made except for a Levin classical guitar and cheap Ibanez dreadnaught neither of which I play these days. Go figure. There are fine archtop luthiers in Europe, though - like Slaman, Elferink and Sonntag, just to name a few. At one point I was close to ordering a guitar from Stefan Sonntag.

[msr13]

I think it is also getting harder and harder to decern what is really made in the US. For example, I think Toyota is the most American made car brand now in terms of parts and labor.

My Sadowsky was built in Japan. I am not sure where the parts for it came from. I believe some of the higher brand tuners and other peripherals, live Grovers are built in China. I may be wrong about that, though. Regardless, as more and more parts of an instrument are developed and pieced together from globally sourced areas, the idea of it being associated with one nation is problematic. If Linda Manzer, hypothetically, sources her materials from the US, but constructs the guitar in Canada, is it a Canadien or American guitar? This is the beauty of a globalized economy.

As for labor costs and the quality of the labor, does the location imply cheap or expensive by itself? Eastman is putting out great stuff, in general, but other companies in China are not. Same in the US, Japan, etc. Each nation offers advantages and disadvantages to company owners. Cost is certainly one of them. And, labor regulations may be another. But, due to its complexity, determining what is directly attributable to a single nation is no longer easy to identify.

As others in many, many posts above have already stated... A good guitar is a good guitar. Where is was made, where it was initiated or finished is not relevant if the guitar meets your quality standard and your ethical standards.

This has been a fun thread to read.

[dogwart]

I think guitar prices for certain Big Name brands are absolutely ridiculous, and don't necessarily reflect the quality that you should be getting. I think they get away with this by using professional endorsements to fool people into thinking you're going to sound like them if you buy their guitar. I think this is absurd.

A pro can take any guitar and make it sound way better than someone who is not.

It's not the car, it's the driver.

Anymore I don't think there is any reason why someone needs to spend tons of money on a guitar. Just my personal opinion.

[mikeSF]

The best guitar ive ever played was made in USA. The worst guitar ive ever played was made in USA.

[Klatu]

You guys remember the old Harmony student guitars? Their action was high enough to drive a truck through. I think the benefit of starting on one of those was that whatever came next would inevitably feel like the holy grail.

[vic]

I buy and support US -made guitars...Fender and Gibson.

I won't buy Eastern/Asian made. Those companies (or most of them) are copycats and I refuse to support any of them as a result....no matter how good their product is.
As for holding value, nothing compares to US -made guitars.

[dogwart]

Well, some Chinese firms are producing lawsuit guitars that are crappy copies, true. But Ibanez isn't. They modified their designs so they wouldn't get sued.

Here's a luthier in Canada. Check this out:

[SamBooka]

I buy and support US -made guitars...Fender and Gibson.

I won't buy Eastern/Asian made. Those companies (or most of them) are copycats and I refuse to support any of them as a result....no matter how good their product is.
As for holding value, nothing compares to US -made guitars.

You know... Fender started copying Fender in the early 80s... and their copies were copies of Japanese copies that Fender commissioned Japanese makers to make.

What is better... a poor quality copy of a 50s Gibson (what Gibson offers now) or a decent copy made offshore.

I will agree about resale value.

[vic]

You know... Fender started copying Fender in the early 80s... and their copies were copies of Japanese copies that Fender commissioned Japanese makers to make.

What is better... a poor quality copy of a 50s Gibson (what Gibson offers now) or a decent copy made offshore.

I will agree about resale value.

You know I currently have a few Gibbos and have had quite a few more over many years.... I 've never had a "quality issue" with any of these. Maybe I'm just not picky enough ?

[boatheelmusic]

Jim, awhile back you took delivery of the Eastman 503CE.

Do you still have it? Long-term impressions?

Thanks,

Bill

[fumblefingers]

i think that this is a little bit too broad. the discussion is all over the map, or so it seems to me. are we talking about archtops, semi-hollows, solid bodies, acoustics, or even classicals (God forbid)? also, price range is a good constraint for the discussion.


but whatever:

archtops - USA

acoustics - USA

solid bodies - USA


classicals (not the USA)



cheers.

[Jim Soloway]

Jim, awhile back you took delivery of the Eastman 503CE.

Do you still have it? Long-term impressions?

Thanks,

Bill

I briefly owned two Eastmans. They were very well built but they were both head heavy (one much worse than the other) and I struggled with feedback with both. I now own a Chinese-made Ibanez PM-35. I would have preferred something a bit less ornate but I think it's an exceptional guitar for the price and maybe even for three or four times the price. I think it has the best chance of staying with me long term of any archtop I've played in the last several years.

[Spook410]

Don't see guitars on this list..

China’s exports to America amounted to
$417.3 billion or 18.4% of overall US imports.
1. Electronic equipment: $101.2 billion
2. Machines, engines, pumps: $97.8 billion
3. Toys, games: $23.7 billion
4. Furniture, lighting, signs: $22.7 billion
5. Footwear: $17.5 billion
6. Knit or crochet clothing: $15.6 billion
7. Clothing (not knit or crochet): $15.57 billion
8. Plastics: $11.8 billion
9. Iron or steel products: $9.4 billion
10. Vehicles: $8.7 billion

If you want to influence current free trade policies, the best way to do that is to support labor unions since they are the primary political force in opposition. They are however, far from the zenith of their influence. You would think the Chamber of Commerce would support small/mid size businesses for a more level playing field but they are (mostly) controlled by larger interests.

If you wish to apply geographic constraints to your purchases for whatever reason, that's fine. Consumer preference and all that. Just realize that it's an emotional choice and not a political statement. You are not doing your part to save the economy or American jobs. You are not saving babies. Free trade plays out in the billions of dollars at the industrial level and that ship sailed long ago.

[fumblefingers]

the reason that people buy Chinese goods is because of cheaper labor costs.

most companies in America spend a lot on wages and benefits, and that can make it very difficult to compete.

as of the 21rst century labor unions have become their own worst enemy. unless Asia sinks into the ocean, i believe that American workers in the manufacturing trades may soon have to choose between lesser wages and benefits and not working at all.

[Spook410]

The thing I find frustrating when it comes to small manufacturers is duties. If someone in China wants an American guitar they pay something like a 20% duty on it. For us to buy a Chinese guitar, there is a 0% duty. I understand the trade war arguments relative to duties, but it is currently one sided to the point of not making sense. If there were a duty on Eastman and Yunzhi I would certainly understand it.

[Patrick2]

The thing I find frustrating when it comes to small manufacturers is duties. If someone in China wants an American guitar they pay something like a 20% duty on it. For us to buy a Chinese guitar, there is a 0% duty. I understand the trade war arguments relative to duties, but it is currently one sided to the point of not making sense. If there were a duty on Eastman and Yunzhi I would certainly understand it.

Tariffs are probably the easiest way for the USA to level the playing field, as it relates to stopping the "dumping" of foreign good on our soil. However, it's also the most controversial and objectionable to the international trade world. It's a very bad and dangerous tactic and policy as well. We use such extreme actions only in the most extreme situations. The risk is creating the perception of protectionism . . . which could lead to isolationism. Then, our country is just about dead in the water.

However, the rest of the trade world realizes that we are overly sensitive to that perceived interpretation . . . and they take advantage of us. For example, there was an Asian country, that was trying to protect it's agricultural trade from our farmed goods being imported into their country and driving down the price of veggies grown by its own farmers. So, instead of imposing tarrifs or duties on our goods, they let the container loads of our products sit for days in unopened containers . . . until the produce began to rot . . . then, they returned it to us as unacceptable. These are our "trade partners".

[FrankyNoTone]

It makes absolute sense for no duties on Chinese imports because its American companies that are importing most of these goods and any duties would cut into their profit margin. Like, how many American branded products are made in China eh?

In the spirit of good old American capitalism, Americans should cut out the middle man and buy direct from China.

[Keira Witherkay]

this conversation has drifted from specs to politics ,which is perfectly ok ,cos it is relevant ..

but unless i missed it ..... i have not seen anyone say they want to buy a USA made guitar because of 'history" or 'tradition"

to me and many other players ... tradition of thr name on the headstock is important and , worth paying extra for .... , so it drives us in that direction

as for eastern made guitars quality , as mentioned above can be fabulous if it's NOT a budget guitar ..... and yes they far better value for money, but most lack resale value and the 'mojo " that some more traditional usa made instruments have ....

and i know to some this 'mojo" / traditional name on the headstock means absolutely zero .....so i'm not suggesting it's the main reason or impacts on everyone but it drives a lot of the industry .....

also it's status......or the false sense of it ....... in the jazz community owning original vintage jazz box's like ones used by our "icons" or having a custom archtop built to order from a luthier gains one status ............

it's human nature, same impulse drives us to own the "status symbol house" in the 'status symbol' suburb , 'status symbol car" and wear a real 'rolex watch instead of a timex (which also would tell perfect time ).....

so yes i think USA guitars especially name brands and luthier builds will always be in demand ....... same as when i was performing flamenco ..... i had to have a 'spanish" made instrument

so USA guitars have status and better resale .... to some of us

and a totally different point on import taxes...ect for the last 6 yrs i have been living in South Africa again , and here fender USA guitars are about 2x (or higher even...i'm being conservative) , the street price new as they are in US ...however Gibson are still inflated but only by 20% not 200% as Fender USA is and then again we here are closer to the east so we get eastern made instruments at really reasonable prices.... and higher end japanese and the eastern guitars like Tokai (gibson copies) are readily available here where i believe in the US they not ....

[3625]

Interesting posts, I like to read the perspectives on international trade, unions, economic policy etc. as they relate to guitar manufacture, but I'm not educated on this stuff enough to offer an informed opinion.

As to guitar quality, in my experience the USA archtops still sound the best. Why? I've been playing jazz since the 90's and I've seen Asian guitars get better and better, mainly in terms of playability, but the USA made ones have the edge in the tone dept. I don't think it's a hardware issue - is has to be something with wood perhaps? how it's treated in the manufacturing process that Asian makers don't tend to do due to time/cost restraints? I don't know the answer, so I'll be interested to hear from others that have experience on this.

Oh, and this post pretty much is USA compared to Asian guitars, so for the sake of clarity, I'll leave European guitars out.

EDIT: this post is referring to Archtops only - as for solid bodies I can't really comment

[Bill C]

The thing I find frustrating when it comes to small manufacturers is duties. If someone in China wants an American guitar they pay something like a 20% duty on it. For us to buy a Chinese guitar, there is a 0% duty. I understand the trade war arguments relative to duties, but it is currently one sided to the point of not making sense. If there were a duty on Eastman and Yunzhi I would certainly understand it.

To add another dimension to this. As a resident of the European Union, if I personally import a guitar from outside the EU, for example from the USA, Canada, Japan or China, I will pay about 25% in duties/local taxes on top of the cost of the guitar+shipping+insurance. If I buy from a local shop, or indeed from a private seller, these initial import costs will almost certainly be reflected in the asking price.

[Bluedawg]

As to guitar quality, in my experience the USA archtops still sound the best. Why? I've been playing jazz since the 90's and I've seen Asian guitars get better and better, mainly in terms of playability, but the USA made ones have the edge in the tone dept. I don't think it's a hardware issue - is has to be something with wood perhaps? how it's treated in the manufacturing process that Asian makers don't tend to do due to time/cost restraints? I don't know the answer, so I'll be interested to hear from others that have experience on this.

Oh, and this post pretty much is USA compared to Asian guitars, so for the sake of clarity, I'll leave European guitars out.

EDIT: this post is referring to Archtops only - as for solid bodies I can't really comment

This is where I fall on this as well .... I like the tone of the US made guitars better ... in general .. and that's a subjective thing

Construction / craftsmanship / quality are about equal ... IMHO

And there are guitars that may be better made with less or even no QC issues, but if they don't sound better ... to me ... then I'll go with what sounds better even if there are a few flaws in the construction ... as long as those flaws aren't serious

And as far as price .. as expensive as Gibsons are ... after you include the street discount that most dealers will give you ... I see them as more of a mid range priced guitar .... you can spend a lot more money on a Monteleone, Benedetto, Manzer, Parker etc. ... same is true for the solid bodies

That said I've played plenty of Asian guitars that I would be happy to own

in the end we each have our own tastes, priorities, and financial resources that impact what we want and are willing to buy ... so play what makes you happy

[Carpal55]

I prefer to support US manufacturers as there are so few left, so when I bought my archtop that was one of my criteria. Unfortunately my budget put many of them out of reach, esp the custom builds. This was a while ago, but I tried one by Martin that was not bad, a few that were out of my price range and finally settled on my Tacoma (no longer built). The Tacoma was carved by a CNC machine, and I like it a lot. I can't say that the quality is higher than the Eastmans, etc. and I'm a big fan of Ibanez. I know there are big diffs in guitars like strats (Mexi vs Korea, etc) but I don't think the better known foreign archtops are at a huge disadvantage. When I buy anything new I look for a US made first, but in guitars I don't think the driver for that is tone or quality....

[dfalk1]

Guitars and musical instruments are maybe like food and use what the locals use. Currently I'm in America and so I like to use American instruments. I am bias because I make and sell guitars, mandolins, and dulcimers. Here is the key point — Support your domestic luthier.