How important are Strings and Frets for Sound?

[Mace]

Hello everybody,

Can someone tell me how important is the stringssize - or generelly the strings (roundwound, etc) - for the sound?

I really love that sound of (for example) George Benson, Norman Brown, Grant Green and Wes. I read in this forum that someone said: "if you want a real big and rich tone you must us 0.12 rounwounds". is that true?

Im really overchallenged, because i started as an rock guitarist and this is new to me.

Is it also true that thick fret create a thick sound? to be honest: i cant imagine

thank you so much for your help!


btw: here is an example for an sound that i like

[Gabe2099]

hi again mace,

i also started as a rock guitarist (actually metal, i still play it though), but i have more trouble with technique and theory rather than getting the sound.

the first thing about strings is that the bigger the string (or the gauge, actually) the fatter and warmer they'll sound. 0.09s sound too twangy and that's more of a country or blues sound...

0.11s/0.12s/0.13s are the recommended strings because they give a warm tone, very fat and rich. you definitely don't want to sound twangy or too bright, you want big, fat and beefy tone.

i really don't know about frets and how they affect sound, i just know they affect playability and some techniques are easier with bigger or smaller frets.

[Mace]

hi gabe, my friend,

he he, that true with the technique and theory!

i ask this questions because next week i go to a guitartechnician and i wanted to be prepared.

thanks for your nice answer! i really appreciate it.

btw: i also played (death-)metal

[Mace]

DAMN! i read that scofield uses 0.13 strings.. thats heavy!! and sco plays often bends (for an jazzer).

[mmukav]

Here's my take on it:

Flatwounds will give you a warmer sound compared to roundwounds. Less bright, much less string squeak. A more traditional jazz guitar sound.

Thicker strings give you a thicker, more acoustic sound. They will also give a 'bigger' sound.

I think this is especially true for hollowbodied guitars compared to solid.

Fret size is different thing. Fat frets make string bending easier. Most jazzers don't like fat frets because the strings bend easier and you don't generally do lots of bends in jazz guitar. Also thinner frets are more accurate as far as intonation. There is less room for the string to move with thinner frets, therefore the intonation is more accurate. I've also read that you get more sustain with taller fret wire. Thicker or taller fret wire will last longer.

Your tech should be able to help you out. It depends on what type of guitar you're going to be using. (solid body, semi-hollow, hollow-body).

[Jake Hanlon]

Frets are more for accuracy and playability. Jazz guitar playing you more room for chords and such. There is more of the guitar you want to play in Jazz then Rock.

Strings do make a significant difference in sound. The Round vs Flat debate comes down to personal preference.

I use 13's on my main guitar and will be putting 13's on my other Gibson as well next week. I am not a big bender but I can get good bends if I want to. SRV was a blues bender from hell and he played 13s sometimes, of course he tuned down a half step and played a 25 scale guitar so the tension was not as high as it would be on a 24.25 scale instrument.

[Peter C]

I used roundwounds for years but once I changed to flats, I was unable to go back to the rounds because of the squeaks and comparative roughness. Some people don't mind so much and seem to swap between the two types quite happily, and great music has been played on either.

My personal experience is that minimum 12-52 gauge strings bring out the best in a 25.5" scale guitar and 13-56's on a 24.75" (whether solid or hollow) and if you're recently coming from Rock guitar, a change away from guitars set up with light strings which depend on amp gain for their sound is a good thing.

As far as frets are concerned, I believe the more the strings are in contact with wood, as in the case of low frets, the better, plus better intonation. Maybe this is not what you're asking.

I don't agree that 9 gauge strings sound more twangy, just weaker.

I used to play "heavy Rock-Blues" style and although it seems Stevie Ray Vaughan preferred heavy 1st and 6th strings, the 2nd to 5th strings he used would have felt average tension, even slightly floppy, given that he tuned down a half step.

For the same set of strings, a shorter scale neck = lower tension, not higher. My hands tell me this.

[hot ford coupe]

Here's my 2 cents thrown in. As a former guitar collector, I've had the chance to see first hand how different strings affect different guitars. In my opinion, not all strings are good for all types of guitars. BTW, this is aimed more towards the beginners in the group since you more experienced players already know this stuff.

I've used .009's all the way up to .014's in a number of different materials from rounds to ground wound to flats, bronze, white bronze, pure nickel, nickel plated, steel and even a flat wound bronze. Here's what I found.

The thinner strings produce the weakest tone, not necessary the twangy tone. They are hard to keep in tune and hard to play in tune. The more pressure you put on the finger board, the harder it is to keep the strings intonated. They are easily bent when you squeeze the fretboard. These strings are best used on a solid body or a semi hollow guitar with a good pickup and a very light touch. This is great for fast runs and hard bends. All of your tone comes from the pickup.

For hollow bodies or guitars where you want the guitar body to contribute more of the tone, the ultra lights are no good. The strings just don't have the mass or the tension to get the top vibrating enough for you to get the right sound. There, the higher the gauge, the better the guitar stays in tune and the less chance for you to "squeeze the string out of tune. The guitar will also have a fatter tone, will be louder and will sound more like the notes jump right out of the guitar. The bends wil be harder and fast runs may be more difficult but you trade some things for other things. Round wound strings will give you a brighter sound and are supposed to be better for rhythm playing. The guitar will sound louder and more like a snare drum with that "boom-chit" type of sound that can really cut through a brass section. The biggest disadvantage is the squeek which you may not be able to hear much as a rhythm player. The steel strings will give you the brighter tone and the nickel will give you a slightly more mellow tone. The nickel strings are easier on your frets. White bronze strings will give you that bronze tone but they will work better with a pickup than the yellow bronze or brass . A flat wound string will give you a much more mellow tone, that "jazz tone" for chord melodies, solos and finger style playing. Just remember when you play finger style, you get less of the guitar body tone and more of the pickup tone depending on how hard you hit the strings and whether or not you use your nails. A thick pick will give you a clearer and louder tone.

I have to add that when you put the heavier strings onto a solid body or semi hollow body, the tone gets way better, fuller and louder.

What do I use now, you may ask. Since all I have left of my collection (I sold most of them in 2004 after a rotten hurricane season.) are carved, tap tuned hollow body archtops. Since I like that smooth woody tone for solos and chord melody a la Barney Kessel, Joe Pass and Herb Ellis, I use 13 guage flatwound all steel strings, particularly the GHS set 1000. They give me the best sound straight out of the package without me having to wait for the strings to settle in. They're relatively inexpensive and easy to get. For rhythm playing, they give me less of that harsh snare drum quality and more of the guitar tone like Freddie Green gets.

Now all of the above doesn't necessarily mean that thick flatwound steel strings are the best for every guitarist. It's just the best for me. It all depends on the style you play, what kind of guitar you like to use, how you physically play the instrument and whether or not you use any effects. The whole point is to choose your materials intelligently to pull the kind of sound you want from your guitar and not let the guitar or strings dictate you what you'll get. Pick the best tool for the job.

[Gabe2099]

haha i'm getting roasted over the "twangy" comment

"twangy" for me is kind of that banjo sound, not quite that but you get the idea.... i hope.

i do agree with hot ford coupe though, that's basically the "thing" about strings.

[hot ford coupe]

As far as I'm concerned, "twangy" isn't a bad way to describe those thin strings. I never had any luck at all with them. In fact, I hated them. Thin strings just don't feel like they have any substance under my fingers. Stick a set of .008's on a Les Paul "fretless wonder" and I'm uncomfortable as hell. Then again, as a bass player for many years, I used pretty thick strings to begin with. BTW, you should hear what a Les Paul sounds like with a higher action and heavy strings especially with just the neck pickup and no effects. You'd think you were playing an L-5CES except with the weight of a boat anchor.

[Gabe2099]

i don't particularly like 0.09s, i used them on my first guitar and they sounded like cr*p... however, i like the 0.09s from D'Addario (i don't endorse them, i just really like them ) they have that thin sound, but they feel a bit more strong to me. i currently use 0.10s on my guitar, though. just because the guitar is set to use those and i don't want to mess it up trying to set it for 0.11s or 0.12s. my guitar is a Stratocaster-like Stagg, it was cheap but it sounds pretty good for its price... i want to put 0.12s on that.

[hot ford coupe]

If it's a Strat copy, 12's are about the largest strings I'd put on. I'm not even sure that 12's won't be a problem. I bought a new 58 Strat from the Fender custom shop and had a fairly beefy neck on it. I put a set of 13's on it and was having a great time with it. In a few months, I noticed the guitar was getting a bit hard to play and my hand was cramping. I sighted the neck and saw a huge bend. O.K. I thought, I'd go ahead and adjust the truss rod. BTW, the older Fender truss rod style with the nut at body junction is a royal pain in the neck to get right. You have to take the guitar apart for each adjustment which may take several tries. Anyhow, I did the adjustment and in a week, the bend was back. After a couple of weeks I couldn't adjust the rod anymore and took those 13's off the guitar. I put a set of 12's on and that seemed to be stable. I had to put a couple of washers between the adjustment nut and the wood to get a bit more room if I had to straighten the neck again. I wound up selling the Strat a year later. It just wasn't the right axe for me.

[Mace]

12s on a strat!?! thats huge but i think stevie ray vaughn has also 12s on his strat.

[Peter C]

BTW, you should hear what a Les Paul sounds like with a higher action and heavy strings especially with just the neck pickup and no effects.

I play a Heritage H-150 solid body with med-high action and 13 gauge flats, so I get to hear that pretty often

I'm going to read back over your previous post. Thanks for all the info!

I wouldn't consider 12's "huge" on a Strat, it's the gauge they were shipped with in the 50s and 60s. Mine is thus strung and I couldn't believe the difference in resonance when I moved up from 11s.

[hot ford coupe]

You're right Peter C. That's one reason why the old Strats sounded like they did. I have to make one correction. I had 3 strats, a 54 reissue, a 58 reissue and an American Standard Strat. I believe it was the American Standard one that had the neck problem. The other 2 had some good size necks but I still put the 12's on them just in case. With the 13's , they sounded absolutely fantastic. I got a beautiful jazz tone and surprised a lot of folks. You can play jazz on a Strat.

[Smitty]

SRV was a blues bender from hell and he played 13s sometimes, of course he tuned down a half step and played a 25 scale guitar so the tension was not as high as it would be on a 24.25 scale instrument.

Ah, sorry, but you've got that backwards, bud. A longer scale creates more tension, not less. 12s on a Fender are tighter than 12s on a Gibson.
But honestly, people crap their pants over thick/heavy strings. I've got 12s on my Metheny and I've got no trouble bending the two plain strings. I've played 13s on the SRV Lenny (tuned to standard, oddly enough) and it wasn't that hard. My buddy set his strat up with 11s and extremely low action (which makes strings slightly harder to bend, believe it or not) and it's really no problem.
I think thin strings suck. Anything below 10s blows for any style. Except maybe 9s on a tele, because they do aid the twanginess a bit, but you've got to get D'addarios because they're wound a little bit tighter than other brands.
It's really all very simple science. Pickups (magnets) "pick up" the magnetic vibrations of the strings (metal). The thicker the string, the stronger the vibration, and therefore the thicker/louder the sound.
And with acoustics, same idea, except it's just amplified by the body.
I played 9s for a while, and then switched to 10s. I've found that, besides the intonation and ability to stay in tune, 10s as opposed to 9s make your technique better. Your bends have more control, your picking is more accurate. It's all about the tension.
I'm mainly a rock/fusion guitarist, and I use D'addario 10-46 on a Schecter custom shop (25.5--fender scale). The higher strings feel great, but I feel like the lower strings could be a bit heavier. Sadly, D'addario doesn't commonly sell 10-52, so I may have to go to 11-49 or switch brands to Ernie Ball 10-52 or 11-52. I'm not endorsed by D'addario either, but they really are the best readily available strings.
In regard to frets, I like medium jumbo (on a 12" fretboard radius, or 10-14 compound radius) simply because they feel the best for everything. Bigger feels to big, smaller feels too small.
Nuff said.
Smitty

[Gabe2099]

ok... so i'm not crazy...

i read jake hanlon's reply and i thought "hey isn't it longer scale = more tension, not the other way around?", i remembered the baritone guitars that have a longer scale, thicker strings and are detuned. but, since i got to lazy to search for it, i forgot about it.

i've tried ernie ball, dean markley, GHS and ones that i don't even remember the name of but i've always gone back to D'Addario. mostly because they last for a decent lenght of time and they sound pretty good to me. i am guilty of liking the dean markleys too, they come as a not-so-close second.

[CC323]

Has anyone else tried the GHS Eric Johnson Rollerwound pure nickel strings? They're available in a 10 set and an 11 set, made for his strat's and his gibsons respectively. The 10's have a thicker e and a, the E is .50, not sure about the A, and the .11's have a .52 on the e. I really like them 'cause they're roller wound, which is apparently what SRV used to use. They feel really great IMO.

[chasgrav]

I'm using flatwounds on my hollow-bodied electric, and love them. I also have a "beater" acoustic archtop, (refurbished 'Supertone' that actually plays well). So far, I've only used roundwounds on it, but I've been spoiled. Does anyone use flatwounds on non-amplified guitars?

[Peter C]

It's true about the truss rod adjustment on Strats, one thing Leo "didn't get right first time"

I've tried the GHS Rollerwounds and they felt just like roundwounds to me.

Flats on an acoustic? I had a spare set of D'Addario Chromes and looked at my old Suzuki acoustic and thought "What if...?, so on they went. I love the way these strings feel! The tone is, how would I say, rather "subdued", but I don't dislike it. Try it!

[hot ford coupe]

I'm using flatwounds on my hollow-bodied electric, and love them. I also have a "beater" acoustic archtop, (refurbished 'Supertone' that actually plays well). So far, I've only used roundwounds on it, but I've been spoiled. Does anyone use flatwounds on non-amplified guitars?

I've got flatwound strings on two acoustic archtops and rounds on the third. The rounds are definitely louder but their also a lot harsher. When I play rhythm a la Freddie Green/"Ranger" Doug Green style, the sound is just too bright for me and I really can't hear the notes well but I get that real snare drum sound. With the flats, I get a lot more of the tones but not as loud. If you listen to any of John Pizzarelli's albums, you can hear that type of sound in the background played by Bucky P. If you're playing in a small group in a relatively quiet place, the flatwounds will carry very nicely. The guitar can also be miked.

[Mace]

Hi Guys,

I read on this page that Pat Metheny plays a 0.11 string set.. but looks at this video, the strings a huge! i dont think its 0.11..

I really want that "smooth jazz" sound like george benson, norman brown or some of the pat metheny songs (like the video above).
I play a cheap copy of the gibson guitar that played by wes montgomery (and many other) ... but i dont know if i put 0.11 or 0.13 on it.. hmm

[Yesterdaysman]

I searched for that sound from my Gibson L7C for years. Finally got close when I fitted the guitar with 14,18,26,32,42,54 gauge roundwound John Pearse strings. Also changed pickup to Kent Armstrong handmand humbucker (from www.archtop.com) and Henriksen Jazzamp 10. The strings made most difference, though. I had tried 12s, but even they are not heavy enough. They are not hard to play if the guitar is properly set up, but you will need a couple of weeks to get used to them.

Hello everybody,

Can someone tell me how important is the stringssize - or generelly the strings (roundwound, etc) - for the sound?

I really love that sound of (for example) George Benson, Norman Brown, Grant Green and Wes. I read in this forum that someone said: "if you want a real big and rich tone you must us 0.12 rounwounds". is that true?

Im really overchallenged, because i started as an rock guitarist and this is new to me.

Is it also true that thick fret create a thick sound? to be honest: i cant imagine

thank you so much for your help!


btw: here is an example for an sound that i like

[JimmyTheSaint]

I searched these forums for the word "Alembic" and didn't get a single hit so I thought I should post. I've put a set of 9's on an Alembic Tribute and it gives a very good jazz sound when soloing the neck pickup. No, it's not quite as full and rich as a jazz box, but it's unbelievably close considering it's a solid body with 9's. It's a very traditionally jazzable sound to my ears, an authentic jazz sound I'd say, not a Strat trying to do its best to be jazzy. Also, I only play fingerstyle, so maybe never using a pick prevents any of the twanginess associated with 9's from creeping in. I'm sure it would be even better with 10's or heavier, but I don't feel like dealing with truss rod adjustments right now. I mean, if I ever scratch this thing I'll be suicidal.

I wonder if anyone else has noticed an Alembic guitar's versatility to get jazzy. Their sonic production philosophy differs from other guitars: the wood makes a difference but the pickup/preamp/filter system gives a wider range of sounds that you can get from a given set of strings. As a jazz guitar, the advantage would be you get higher fret access on a sweet-feeling fingerboard, and no feedback when you switch to the other pickups for high gain sounds.

Here's the guitar I mean, if you're not already familiar with it.

[mangotango]

Here's the guitar I mean, if you're not already familiar with it.

Oh yeah! - Jerry Garcia!!