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I'm semi in the market for a 50s ES-175. I've read a lot about folks' preference for P-90s on the low strings, but don't hear a lot of comparisons regarding the high strings. Do P-90s sound thin up high in comparison? Thanks!!
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12-23-2012 11:28 AM
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Thin? Not at all. Not many fatter sounding single coils than a P90.
It is a different sound, though...a little more bite...i've heard somebody call P90's "gulpy." Sounds like ridiculous guitarist speak...but...maybe a decent onomonopaeic description...
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It sounds like (based upon your question) you may not have as much experience playing P90 loaded guitars as you might have playing humbucker loaded guitars. There is a difference . . and in some cases a significant difference. If you are already used to and comfortable with humbucker tone . . . then, the P90 will take some getting used to for sure.
Defining the difference as thin vs fat is an accurate assessment. And, if you play a P90 loaded guitar and your initial reaction to it is . . "it's a much thinner sound than I'm used to" . . . and you don't allow your mind to hear beyond that, you probably won't like them. But, when dialed in correctly and you start to hear the clarity which is sometime lost in a humbucker . . your assessment will change from "thin" to "well defined". IMO
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P90s are bright AND deep whereas humbuckers often suffer from too much low midrange, or mud, and not a very clear top end. A good P90 sound "pops."
More generalization, but perhaps it will help.
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Definitely +1. I have two guitars I use all the time, one with a P90 and the other with a Pete Biltoft SP90-a Strat sized pickup which nails the P90 tone. I sold all my other guitars including several with humbuckers just because I like the definition and clarity that the P90 provides.
Originally Posted by Patrick2
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p90's > humbuckers
I wouldn't describe the sound as thin. I would describe it as 'more' everything... clarity, character, pop, hum.
Listen to Jim Hall's 50's/60's recordings to hear a p90 ES-175 at it's best.Last edited by RyanM; 12-23-2012 at 01:20 PM.
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With humbuckers, when I dial in the tone so the highs are good and full, the lows tend to mud up a bit. when I dial in the tone of the lows to be clear, the highs tend be be too bright. Not all humbuckers are the same in this respect, but there's a tendency.
With single coils, I find it easier to dial in a sound which ensures both full and mellow highs as well as clear and well defined tones on the butttom strings. The result is chords with better note separation = greater clarity.
That said, apart from the difference in bass clarity, I think one can dial in almost any sound on almost any pickup with a good EQ unit (either the amps tone stack or an external unit). So don't make too much fuss about the choice of pickups. Most differencies between different pickups can be levelled by a slight twist of a tone control knob.
The downside to single coils is their tendency to hum. It is mandatory to ground the strings, so the hum is dampended when the strings are touched or the it can be unbearable.
Apart from P90s, popular single coils are blade pickups like the Charlie Christian and, say, the CC from Lollar and the HCC from Biltoft which is popular with some jazz players - me included. Strat pickups are also single coils but with the polepieces being the magnets themselves. The Gibson "Alnico" pickup from the 1950s used the same principle (it looked a lot like a P90 but was not).
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To the best of my knowledge, Jim Hall had the P90 in his 175 swapped for a humbucker around 1960. But I agree - I too like his tone with the P90 better. Originally Posted by RyanM
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I should clarify, I'm new to the archtop world after playing Teles in a non-jazz setting for the last 30 years. I came across a 2006 175 with p-90s a few months ago and it felt like home. It's all I've been playing. I've only been using the neck PU and it looks like there are deals to be had with one pickup 175s from the 50s (I like a fat neck). The '59 VOS looks real nice too.
It's humbuckers that I have little experience with. I'd love to A/B some 175s but there doesn't seem to be any around in my locale. I can get the difference between a single and double coil with the low notes, but am curios about how they compare with a clean sound up high.
Maybe writing about sound is like dancing about architecture. Still, I do love to hear your opinions.
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My experience with P90's (on 3 guitars) is that they sound even better on the plain strings that on the wound strings. The drawback, as has been mentioned above, is that they hum, and far more than, say, a strat pup. But unless you plan on playing with a fair amount of distortion (or have really noisy electricity, i.e. bad wiring in your domicile), it shouldn't be unbearable.
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Well he still had the P90 when he was with Rollins in '62 (There are videos on Youtube) and on Bill Evan's Interplay. And the Merv Griffith video says 1965 and he had it then. I thought he had the p90 on the 'Stitt Plays Bird' record ('66) but I have no visual reference, I'll listen to the album again. Originally Posted by oldane
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The only real way to hear the difference is an A/B test..don't think it's a question of which is ''better''; both P90 and HB sounds work very well for jazz on the upper strings ( don't think there's so much doubt about the lower strings though, especially with flats)
The differences are partly explained by the fact that a P90 is single- coil and the HB is double-coil. The P90 is very clear and the note has density and weight because it's picking up the string in just one place. This means that the harmonic overtones are relatively simple compared to a HB. The HB has 2 coils, each sensing the string in a slightly different place, which means that some harmonics get cancelled, whilst others get enhanced. In other words, the HB puts out a more harmonically complex signal.
Is this a good or bad thing? it depends..HBs sometimes are described as more 'mellow', and there is certainly a kind of 'envelope' around the note that you don't get with P90s - you hear it immediately. But what is desirably ''mellow'' in one musical context can seem ''muddy'' or lacking in ''weight'' in another.
I've switched between HBs and P90s for years...I love them both. I think I'd settle for a pickup with P90 clarity on the bottom and HB ''mellowness '' on the top...
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When I A/B a P-90 and HB on the same model guitar, the impression I get is that the added punch and clarity of the P-90 makes the high strings sound more "piano-like" and the HB more "breathy".
Both sound dark and full.
Like you say, it's hard to put sound into words (unless you're Ella Fitzgerald).
Another good example to listen to is Herb Eliis' "Nothin But The Blues" album, as well as "Ellis In Wonderland". He plays a P-90-equipped 175 in both of those.Last edited by Retroman1969; 12-24-2012 at 07:26 AM.
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I am starting to reach the same conclusion... Originally Posted by oldane
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One thing you can try is adjusting a HB pickup in the mounting so that the treble side sits right up under the strings but the bass side is slanted significantly lower than usual. You then bring the bass side polepieces up to get a balanced volume. This has the effect of the bass strings sounding much clearer, because of the quasi single-coil effect on the bass side.
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Thanks Chris. Been there, done that, it helps A LOT but... with the P90 of my Godin I use much less eq on both the Mambo and the Henriksen, only small adjustments really. It's been a surprise for me actually, always thought of myself as a PAF guy!
By the way, merry Christmas Chris!
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And to you Jorge!
Looking forward to your Mambo review!
Yeah I know about P90s, they are v cool pickups..but I always end up missing that HB mellowness when I take a P90 guitar out. Too old to change I guess.
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I will do it on the end of the week!
I get what you say, you can't beat the PAF for a mellow sound. But that P90 sound has been really haunting me... it's much more plug and play! I need to wait before I make some rush decisions
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yeah.. I dont want to seem like I jumped on the P90 bandwagon here...
My ES165 had a 57Classic Plus. High end was fine but got sick of the lower mids dominating. Rolling the volume on the guitar back to about 7 helped as did backing off the pickup away from the strings.
Eventually went to a Lollar p90 in the neck ... Ahhh.... sounded great but was a difficult fit (more of a proof-of-concept than a properly mounted pickup). Decided to go with an HB with a little less output (Seth Lover) and... still need the volume at 7 and the pickup backed off (and even switched from 300K to 500K pots).
Non of those three pickups gave me any issues with the higher strinngs. I think I will go back to the Lollar sometime in 2013 (my workshop is shut down for a few months for renovations) and properly fit it this time.
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DID YOU KNOW: That Jim hall got his ES175 from Howard Roberts? Originally Posted by RyanM
(yeah.. you probably did.. but other might not )
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Have a look and listen to Dutchbopers blindfold test on various Gibson's one is an ES125 with a P90; its on here somewhere and on his blog at Dutchbopper Its not easy to tell the difference between many classic Gibson guitars with buckers P90's or floaters ,never mind size and wood.
Alan
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>>DID YOU KNOW: That Jim hall got his ES175 from Howard Roberts?>>
Wasn't that when he gave up the Les Paul?
(no, seriously..)
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Yeah. A black fretless wonder Originally Posted by Franz 1997
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Has anyone tried stacked or noiseless P-90s?
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Just my opinion here ... the best humbuckers to me are not that far off really good P-90s, but it's not easy to find those best humbuckers.
My reference HB sound is in a '66 ES-335. Those pickups are just about perfect. Clear, articulate. Twangy in the middle position, hot on top, warm on neck only w/o mud. The only other modern humbuckers I like as much are wound by Ian Anderson. So many HB guitars have come and gone for me. Seems difficult to find that balance, especially with so many current builders going for overwound HBs. Not all, but most of the overwound ones I hear, just don't have the clarity in the high end or down low. You get volume and punch at the expense of everything else.
Meanwhile, easy to find it with P-90s. It's the fattest sounding single coil. The best I've found are Lollars, Wolfetones, Duncan Antiquities, all somewhat similar to the older PAF and Patent sticker Gibson humbuckers depending on how you set them. P90s are chameleons tonally. On bridge p/u only in my Collings 290, tone not much rolled off or not at all, it can sound very much like that Roy Buchanan tele signature sound. Same guitar on neck p/u with a little tone rolled off, very jazzy and smooth. So P-90s cover lots of ground. From classic jazz warmth to powerful, cutting lead tones. I don't find humbuckers nearly as versatile in that way.
MD
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