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  1. #1

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    Has anyone had finish issues with Eastman guitars? I read the following online, and after seeing one on Ebay with a noted similar problem I was wondering... since some jazz type models are between $1500 ~$2500 I wouldn't consider them to be a "reasonable price" Anyone else heard of this? I know of an 803CE at a very nice price that looked great till I read this:


    "Furthermore, my repair guy - a real expert on archtops - said that Eastman is the only brand he will not work on - the finish is too inferior for a pricy guitar. A couple that he did work on were damaged merely by using masking tape to protect areas he worked on. The finish came off with the tape. That never happened on any other guitar he said. So the question is have any others heard that complaint or found that to be true?. And anyone have a 910 or similar that they can tell me about? I know every instrument is different and obviously it isn't a good idea to buy on line. It just looked so well made. Just not worth even the reasonable price."

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  3. #2

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    Piping in with my 2 cents even though I have no experience with Eastman, yes, it is true that the Eastman finish is delicate. BUT...contrast that with thick indestructible poly-whatever plastic or even modern nitro with too much plasticisers in it thickly applied and which would you rather have?

    I feel that the fault does not lie with Eastman but with repairmen who do not understand the thin finish that Eastman uses and consequently blame Eastman for damage caused. I am no expert (but play one on stage). A good beeswaxing of the Eastman and less adhesive tape (run it against your skin first) will resolve most problems.

    It is a case of using the right approach and right tools for the job at hand. Not the fault of Eastman; more the case of unmatched expectation.

    I know I would rather have a thinly applied finish than a thick plastic shell.
    Last edited by Jabberwocky; 12-08-2012 at 03:35 AM.

  4. #3

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    The finish on my Eastman guitar (880) has in less than one year come off several places. Especially near the tonecontrol. For some reasons many guitarists care a lot about the look, but unless it's made purely for the eyes, I can not understand why a music instrument has to be treated like a mummy.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    Piping in with my 2 cents even though I have no experience with Eastman, yes, it is true that the Eastman finish is delicate. BUT...contrast that with thick indestructible poly-whatever plastic or even modern nitro with too much plasticisers in it thickly applied and which would you rather have?

    I feel that the fault does not lie with Eastman but with repairmen who do not understand the thin finish that Eastman uses and consequently blame Eastman for damage caused. I am no expert (but play one on stage). A good beeswaxing of the Eastman and less adhesive tape (run it against your skin first) will resolve most problems.

    It is a case of using the right approach and right tools for the job at hand. Not the fault of Eastman; more the case of unmatched expectation.

    I know I would rather have a thinly applied finish than a thick plastic shell.
    That's a very insightful reply. And in general agree with your statements about heavy handed repairmen causing damage however...

    What I would like to have is a durable finish that stands up to time and use.

    Thick? Dunno if I could say I prefer it but as long as tone and long term playability aren't affected, and the wood underneath were protected? Then yes absolutely I would prefer to not have the finish coming off or wearing off.

    An example of thin finishes I know of and object to, are the thin "satin" finishes on many Fender maple necks. I see not very old guitars with the necks black with hand grime, and the new "washed" finishes on Gibsons with sweat stains on them.

    Since once the finish is off an Eastman, it's subject to getting the wood soaked with oils and sweat, not my cup o tea. And no thanks, but no Eastman in my house.

  6. #5

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    Durable Finish and Nitrocellulose don't seem to go well together.

    The complaint about modern nitro-ed Gibson finishes is that they have too much plasticisers in them. Gibson Goop, it is known. Some of the fellas such as Historic Makeovers and RS Guitarworks make a business out of stripping off the new Gibson factory finish and re-applying "historically" correct nitro that wears with playing.

    Polyester or polyurethane finishes are durable but guitarists object to them because "they kill tone", "they don't allow the wood to breathe", "they suck tone". Superstitions, in my point of view but you cannot stop guitarists from sticking to tradition and believing what they want to believe.

    Nitro finishes are intrinsically non-durable. Being covered in black hand grime is part of the relic charm and movement. This is what I do to prevent hand grime: Wash my hands before playing. Have a clean towel ready at hand. Talcum powder my fretting hand. Wax the back of the neck regularly. And wipe the instrument down with a clean towel regularly. Oh yeah, I also wear a long-sleeved cotton or flannel shirt or use one of those forearm "condoms" that classical guitar cats use over their French Polished Lovelies.

    Eastman could have used poly-whatever but I suspect they don't because the US distributor thinks the American market prefers thin violin-cello-double bass varnishes or old-style nitrocellulose.

    Anything with nitro, I handle with special care because that is its nature. It comes off as soon as you look at it.
    Last edited by Jabberwocky; 12-08-2012 at 04:54 AM.

  7. #6

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    I can't speak for any other Eastmans, but I've had an AR403 for almost a year and have played it pretty much every day in that time. I keep my hands clean, try to wear a long sleeved shirt, and have a micro-fiber cloth to wipe it down as needed. My tech has done some minor fret work and used masking tape as necessary. I've had no issues with the finish, though admittedly - being thin nitro - it is susceptible to nicks if you're not careful.

  8. #7

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    I agree with jabber's posts on this matter. Consider that mid '50s', '60s, '70s Gibson arch tops were "correctly" finished with true un-plasticized (new word?) nitro cel laq . . . played and cleaned and repaired/serviced in some cases over half a decade. There is no need for you to go to a poly or a cheaped down version of NCL, if . . . as Tom Karol says . . you are careful in your use, handling and maintenance of the guitar.

    Your recently aquired 575 is finished in the real deal NCL (that's why I PM'd you about the wall hangers shown in your photo) . . and it was expertly applied.

    Regarding Eastman . . . I've read, here and elsewhere, that Eastman did in fact have some quality issues with their finishes. But, I've also read that those issues were recognized and corrected quite some time ago. However, with that said . . . Gibson, Heritage, Guild and other have also had "issues". One of our members here on JGF has a beautiful Triggs built guitar with finish issues. NO ONE is exempt . . . when it come to NCL.

  9. #8

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    The first couple of Eastmans I had were finished in the most brittle lacquer Ive ever seen. The newer ones seem to be fine .

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Karol
    I keep my hands clean, try to wear a long sleeved shirt, and have a micro-fiber cloth to wipe it down as needed.
    I'll remember that if I buy one... but I'll have to setup a clean room first :-)

    Seriously, you're taking precautions that just about everyone who has a better instrument who cares about it takes, nothing unreasonable there and good advice for us all.

    My problem is wearing LS shirts in Florida, they're too warm. When playing at home I put a polishing cloth on top of the lower bout and always wear a shirt of some sort to protect the rear.

    I still wouldn't buy an Eastman though... unless it fell in my lap with another Calton case :-)

  11. #10

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    a good repairman uses low tack or painters tape when masking a guitar - that will never damage a lacquer finish. I think the problem there was with your repairman.
    I've owned 3 Eastmans and never experienced any issue with finish - they were flawless and durable.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeSF
    a good repairman uses low tack or painters tape when masking a guitar - that will never damage a lacquer finish. I think the problem there was with your repairman.
    I've owned 3 Eastmans and never experienced any issue with finish - they were flawless and durable.
    You can't get any better than this: Testimony from one who has actually OWNED them, not one but three.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeSF
    a good repairman uses low tack or painters tape when masking a guitar - that will never damage a lacquer finish.
    "Never", is a very "big" word. I have a good friend who owns a Unity 100th Anniversary. natural finish, made by Aaron Cowles. The owner of the guitar used blue painters tape when changing strings. Probably left it on the top a little longer than he should have. The result . . . he has a blue blemish which has permiated the NCL to the point where it's too deep to remove. He brought the guitar to Aaron, who soft sanded it and wheel buffed it best he could without removing all of the NCL. He got most of it out, but there is still a blue ghost . . . barely visable, but it's there.

  14. #13

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    I've owned at least 10 Eastmans. 3 Pisano's, 4 810's, a '371, an AR817 arched back flattop, which is the only one I bought brand new....The only one of them that had an issue was a non-cutaway 810...the sides weren't finished properly, lacking finish....I took it to my luthier who works with nitro often, and he charged me less than $50 to make it right. The guitar had no other issues. Came with a custom Mark Campellone pickguard....loved the guitar, but lacked the tone I desired for an acoustic. Eastman's are fine guitars...but I'd recommend buying them used where they've depreciated...and I buy all archtops from the internet...nary a problem.

  15. #14

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    I'll chime in and say that I've had 3 Eastmans, played the hell out of them, stuck masking tape on them to hold the bridges down during string changes, and they have held up fine. Still look like new.

  16. #15

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    Nitro is for kids, you silly rabbit.

    Shellac is where it's at - you can polish it up as much as you want. Nicks? Scratches? Just add some more shellac it on there and French Polish the crap out of it. Want it shinier? More French Polishing! Don't like the colour? Wash it off with alcohol and start over! And stay away from the tape.

  17. #16

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    Ive owned my AR403 for 10 months and its a thin finish granted but i prefer thatb compared to gibson, epi, ibanez finishes. Its all subjective as always but i love the thin and light finish on these instruments. They seem more alive....same story with my new ar803ce.

  18. #17
    We are currently in the process of testing new paint suppliers. We have been trying some paint that is used by Collings, PRS, etc and it works very well!

    The finish we apply is a Nitrocellulose Lacquer that is not altered very much from the old school formulas. The reason it is brittle is due to the fact that we dont use any plasticizers or other agents that change the elasticity of the finish itself. We also do not use a poly base coat either. Everything we do is the old school way, and yes some may complain that the instrument wears, but that is the intention i suppose. We also make sure the final finish thickness is VERY thin. This is why our instruments sound the way they do. They arent wearing a heavy jacket of finish.

    We make beautiful instruments, Yes, but we dont want to make coffee tables either. Striking that balance is key, and we feel that the lacquer we use is protective when taken care of properly, and is not sticky when playing which is a key factor for us.

    Also, We repair the lacquer on customers instruments with ease if need be. We often use the Re-Ranch cans here in the shop for quick touch ups if there is an issue. If regular masking tape takes off the finish, i am curious to see the instrument. We always look for ways to improve, and we will continue to do so. These threads are helpful because then we can work on improvements.

    If it were up to me, id say use all Polyurethane, but most purists request that we use real Nitrocellulose Lacquer so we kindly oblige. Polyurethane, when applied properly, is a vastly superior finish that protects much better, glosses much better, sands easier, and has no sound difference. No scientific study has ever proven that a person can hear the difference between Polyurethane and Nitrocellulose Lacquer, and most people couldn't even point out which guitar is which when looking with their own two eyes! If one is much thicker than the other, that will affect the sound, but then it is down to the mass. French polish is a different story though.

    Thanks for the posts guys, and keep playin!
    Last edited by PFC @ Eastman; 12-11-2012 at 07:53 PM.

  19. #18

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    No, thank YOU!!!

    It's not often that manufacturers have their ear to the ground on issues that concern buyers past and future.

    Believe me, I know that every step in design and manufacturing is a balancing act...

    Many here as you have noted are not concerned about their guitar having either a possibility of a flaw, or will take the extra care with it knowing it pays them dividends in sound.

    I also believe that somewhere there is a balance to be struck with durability and sound. I hope you find that balance, because when you do, players and "tire kickers" like myself may become buyers, and hopefully you will not alienate users who look for something different than I do.

  20. #19

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    To PFC@Eastman,

    My opinion of Eastman just went up a few more points.
    Thank you.
    So glad that you are "listening".

    Cheers, Ron

  21. #20

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    >>> We are currently in the process of testing new paint suppliers.

    So you will be going to Cardinal?

    Is this a sort of reasonable acceptance that some careful use of silicone and so-called "plasticizers" can be a good thing so long as it is not overdone to goop-i-ness?

    Sounds like a good plan to me.

    Chris

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Retroman1969
    I'll chime in and say that I've had 3 Eastmans, played the hell out of them, stuck masking tape on them to hold the bridges down during string changes, and they have held up fine. Still look like new.
    Me, too. I've owned a blonde Pisano 880 for the past two years and an El Rey for nearly three. Both are great guitars. Not a problem with either one so far, nor would I hesitate to buy another.

  23. #22

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    To also chime in:

    I have one 2006 805CE and the finish is exactly like "they used to be". Thin, hard, non-goopy, lacquer. Exactly as described and intended by Eastman.

    I am a little disappointed about the "Re-ranch" cans being used though. I mean come-on, a 35 dollar HVLP gun from Lowes and some Cardinal is more in keeping with fine repairs from the manufacturer?

    Chris

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by PFC @ Eastman
    ...[ ]..No scientific study has ever proven that a person can hear the difference between Polyurethane and Nitrocellulose Lacquer... If one is much thicker than the other, that will affect the sound, but then it is down to the mass. French polish is a different story though. ...
    Yeah, I was joking above, for those not brought up on American TV commercials. A really thin poly finish is a wonderful thing, but not enough manufacturers maintain that level of quality control - Suhr is a good example of a larger company that applies impeccable, thin poly finishes.

    The only real issue with poly is that it is a colossal PIA to repair. It is also a real PIA to remove, unless it is very thinly applied. OTOH it is tough as nails.
    Nitro is A-OK by me, as is French Polish.

  25. #24

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    Always a contentious issue. Seems like prices are forever going South and the expectations always going the opposite way. When I first bought my proper quality guitar in 1963 it cost £159 - in wages that was a lot as I earned £7 a week! In pure inflation terms it is the equivalent of £2700 - a 335 would have cost that as well so the current price at Thoman of about £1800 shows how thr price has dropped in real terms. As quality guitars are pretty much still made the samE way - something has been short cut. Unless you think it has been pay, cheaper woods, cheaper machinery etc.

    One way to cut the price is to build offshore where salaries are better than they weere 5 years ago ( something like £10 a week) but still way lower than the West. And / Or you can cut quality/materials/finishing.

    In the old World of 1963 we would now be paying something like £4000+ for an ES175. So an Eastman at £1200 is well short of that - your guess is as good as mine on where the compromises are made.

    But don't forget other musicians are used to a whole diffent World of costs and quality. An orchestral violinist would be expecting to pay $30,000 for a basic violin if he or she were in a top orchestra. They consider our position to be unbelieveable - a top instrument for $6,000!

    I'm never sure of what players want from budget instrument. My son was told he would need a $4000 cello just to play in a County orchestra?! Not at all sure where we are heading as musicians trying to drive the price and quality forever down.

    I guess I would use Heritage as my benchmark of old school building. Their prices probably most accurately reflect the materials, work, and attention to detail for a working pros instrument. If the price is lower, well something was cut. If it's higher, then something was added - and on a bad day that might have been margin.
    Last edited by ChrisDowning; 12-12-2012 at 07:38 AM.

  26. #25

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    Thanks for checking in with your comments PFC... I'm glad Eastman listens in and is always experimenting. Frankly, the qualities mentioned are among the reasons I enjoy playing Eastmans: the subtle look of a vintage wooden instrument rather than a plastic toy, no stickiness to the finish, and super easy to clean and polish.
    Epiphone, Ibanez, Fender, etc, though I like them, for the most part look and feel plastic and get sticky while playing. Glossy Fender necks in particular feel like they're finished in gummi bears. Even the upper scale ones in nitro are really heavy-handed, and use plasticizers and poly bases which to me, defeats the purpose and wrecks the appeal of having a "vintage" nitro finish.