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So what you are saying is that, as with many things, they problem may not be the product, but the application and use of it.
Originally Posted by Patrick2
I am guilty of the same thing my young kids were guilty of, and that's wanting a definitive answer given to me rather than finding it for myself. In life, is seems you often have to do that when it comes to information.
Thanks, All.
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11-26-2012 05:14 PM
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>>> So what you are saying is that, as with many things, they problem may not be the product, but the application and use of it.
Oh no, we are pretty much on the doorstep of declaring Patrick the Buddha of Archtops. When I can snatch the pebble from his hand will it be time to leave?
But man yeah, definitely a good thought.
Youse guys sure can find the real deal in a situation. Thanks for the focus.
Grasshopper
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Good tone is good tone, it doesn't matter where it comes from. Originally Posted by rpguitar
I do find it amusing that you shun "run of the mill" Gibson pickups, but you're happy to play a fake L-5.
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I couldn't care less what it's written on the headstock.
My opinions are based on my 13+ years of guitar teching, p'up repair and modding.
You should add a 30 years of pro musicianship, doing an average of 220 gigs a year.
And please, don't forget a lifetime of gear whoring!
My statements stay. If you find'em amusing, more power to you!
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He was asking 'bout comparing a '50s Gibsons with Duncan p'ups, and these I happen to know very well indeed. Specially considering the machine that wound that '50s Gibson is the same it's used to wind both Seths and Ants as well. Keeping the basic coil geometry, the variables are the magnet and the wire, which BTW are very close to the ones found in some '50s p'ups, as Gibson used whatever mag they've offered for cheap, as long as it was written "alnico" on the invoice. The same with the wire. Originally Posted by PTChristopher
So yes, I'm pretty sure of what I'm talking about.
I don't follow you here... Originally Posted by PTChristopher
Last edited by LtKojak; 11-27-2012 at 03:46 PM.
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I thought you had a '50s 175. Sorry I've misunderstood the post. Originally Posted by Encinitastubes
In a nutshell, Ants are darker and smoother when Seths are brighter and more articulated.
In my 335 copy I have an Ant set modded with Un-Oriented Alnico 5 magnets, which add a bit of articulation to the otherwise too smooth for my taste stock Ant set.
I have a stock Seth Lover set in my LPC copy. This is the only p'up set I use that's stock.
In my #1 guitar, a MIJ 1980 all-maple 335 copy, I have a Electric City Pickups RD-59 set, which are the closest aproximation to what I think might've come out of the p'up production line on Parson street in 1959 and brought today in a time machine.
If in doubt, just get the Seths and use the tone control.
HTH,
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Hey Pepe, you know what you like and what you don't like. That's cool. Just like the rest of us.
I've owned about 100 guitars of all stripes. I don't gig much any more, but I play at least 2 hours a day and have done so - more or less - for something approaching 35 years. Do those numbers matter? Not really. Sometimes people learn and evolve a lot over time. And sometimes they do the same dumb things for many years. It just goes to show that "to each his own."
For the record, I don't care what the headstock says either. I sold an L-5CN after I played my first $800 Korean D'A Excel. Then I sold that, still chasing rainbows... That was dumb. But I digress. I have three DIY Warmoths that have nothing on the headstock, yet they are smokin' axes.
My only real complaint is that a bunch of people on the Seymour Duncan forum ragging about Gibson pickups seems a bit, well, biased. I have been disappointed by big name pickups and thrilled with no name pickups. I think it's another one of those areas that some boutique companies have turned into an "artisanal" market, with prices to match. The return on investment is very slight as the investment goes up.
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i've never found the Gibson '57 Classic to be anything special. Always considered it a stock pickup that I couldn't wait to replace. There are so many great pickup makers out there now that it is no longer difficult to get a pickup swap right on the first or second try.
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And... the stock Gibson patent-applied-for "humbucking pickup" was at one time just the latest new-fangled thing to emerge from the factory with promises of greatness. It's all a matter of perspective, and of history, and of marketing.
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After the PAF, Gibson never could produce a really good sounding p'up.
All other designs made by Tom Holmes, Tim Shaw, Bill Lawrence and specially Seth Lover, never actually made the original specs, all were backstabbed by the suits cheaping up and dumbing down their designs which led to all relationships ending up badly.
Do you see a pattern here? In Gibson it's called "tradition".
HTH,
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i have antiquities, seths, and classic 57s-
(and some other boutique pups too)
and i too characterize 57s classics as does patrick-however, all of the pups listed above in my hands are from no later than 2003-all of them are excellent-id be happy with any of them, provided they complimented the guitar-i think SD pups are some of the best and most reasonably priced pups out there-i also like wolftone pups , also very reasonably priced and great quality
i really like them all-no different than things that are similar but with slight twists in flavor or color-
imho seths from SD are virtually indistinguishable from gibson 490-498's from the 70's (t tops) (point being they are plentiful and not too pricey)
im with patrick on this
and another poster as well
each guitar has ..a serendipity of sorts with certain pups
you might have to try a few
i say this because, i have done the purchasing and swapping many times in my own gear
what sounds superb in one Les Paul doesnt sound the same in another-even the same make pick ups wont sound identical-but there usually is a similarity
and...pot value and cap value and type also does make a difference-for instance with classic 57's , it is my experience that using 500k pots and hovland .022mf caps-they arent at all muddy-but would likely be a bit more so with stock gibson 300k pots and caps-which is what i have experienced first hand
thee other thing that can make a big change is : 1 overall pick up height; 2 individual pole piece adjustment -it can be dramatic-
sometimes ....you take a poll, read harmony central reviews, select those guys that seem to not talk 'stuff', and hope you make the right call-
sometimes you gotta try again-tone tuition
it seems , generally speaking from my experience, a hotter pick up will have more mid and less treble-
even in my les pauls, for rock, I prefer lower output pickups because i like balance and articulation when i play them clean-
ultimately only you can be the judge of what sounds sweet to your ears
i dont think you can go too wrong with any of your considerations
and, fwiw , i have a set of tim shaw pups (1983) and they are great sounding pickups
and fwiw , some of gibbys pups, like burst buckers 1,2, 3 and shaws too varied in winds-kinda neat, in that each had some uniqueness, unless you dont like what you get
while i enjoy tinkering, and refining my instruments if i think it will help, in perspective,
it has made little real difference overall-its sorta a diversion from the music into the gear
cheap pick ups often do merit a changeLast edited by stevedenver; 11-27-2012 at 07:00 PM.
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[Chris] >>> Or are the DC resistances so hugely different that we can temporarily ignore subtleties (but then re-introduce them when it is convenient)?
[Kojak] >>>I don't follow you here...
I meant to criticize the inclusion of detail and subtlety in some 50%-baked opinion (presented as analysis and advice) and then the equally sudden exclusion of detail and subtlety when it does not suit the moment.
I do not mean anything like this personally, and as mentioned all are welcome to their views and ways of looking at this sort of stuff.
I particularly find the sort of banter in the linked SD forum (and common enough in many places) to be unsubstantial. But that is just me and my opinion.
Also, how long I have done anything is immaterial. Maybe I have simply been an imbecile for decades, which is hardly an argument for my view on anything.
Sense, and a passing interest in actual info from a complete novice would be far more interesting than some vacuous appeal to expertise, longevity, or popularity.
In my opinion.
I did manage to sort out the general and very likely idea that the Antiquity (albeit in unspecified form) is a bit darker than the SL.
Of course how much this means compared to a tweak of a knob or the carpet in a room in term of "tone" is another matter.
Still in my opinion.
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher; 11-28-2012 at 02:40 AM.
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[quote=PTChristopher;273278][Chris] >>> Or are the DC resistances so hugely different that we can temporarily ignore subtleties (but then re-introduce them when it is convenient)?
[Kojak] >>>I don't follow you here...
I meant to criticize the inclusion of detail and subtlety in some 50%-baked opinion (presented as analysis and advice) and then the equally sudden exclusion of detail and subtlety when it does not suit the moment.
I do not mean anything like this personally, and as mentioned all are welcome to their views and ways of looking at this sort of stuff.
I particularly find the sort of banter in the linked SD forum (and common enough in many places) to be unsubstantial. But that is just me and my opinion.
Also, how long I have done anything is immaterial. Maybe I have simply been an imbecile for decades, which is hardly an argument for my view on anything.
Sense, and a passing interest in actual info from a complete novice would be far more interesting than some vacuous appeal to expertise, longevity, or popularity.
In my opinion.
Chris . . . got a funny littly story for ya . . (I love telling stories)I did manage to sort out the general and very likely idea that the Antiquity (albeit in unspecified form) is a bit darker than the SL.
About 2 years ago, I bought a gorgeous H535 from some guy in Calif who goes by the name "foncava" . . . I think I've seen his name on this forum as well. Real nice guy!! It's a beautiful blond, spec'd out by Jay Wolfe with a bound head stock, a Gibby shaped maple pick guard stained black . . and Antiquities. When the guitar arrived, I opened the case and "did the dance" . . (it's a little ritual I do when ever I get a new guitar . . . has nothing to do with actually dancing). My first impression when I opened the case and peered into it was . . "oh shit man! Why the hell are those pup covers so damned oxidized??" I was NOT happy! I closed the case and walked away for 5 minutes . . (part of "doin' the dance). When I came back to the guitar, reopened the case and took a better look . . I was appalled by the pup covers. I decided I wanted to pull them out and put Seths in them. I called Seymour Duncan . . the company not the man . . and they put me thjrough to The Custom Shop. Got some very nice lady on the phone and told her how I felt and asked if I could order a set of Seths. She said . . with a slight accent . . "I'll save you some money . . . get yourself some very fine steel wool and polish the corrosion off of the tops of the pup covers. We purposely cause the corrosion to make the Antiquities look antique. But, our Antiquities are the exact same pup with aged pup as our Seth Lover, but with aged covers".
Needless to say, learning that the covers were purposely aged was an embarrassing "Duh . . " moment for me. So, I taped off the area surrounding the pup openings real well so no steel wool particals were sucked into and onto the pup magnets . .lightly dry polished the covers with 0000 gauge steel wool. Now, they look like 40 year old nickel pup covers, but without the excessive corrosion. I'm happy!!
I never went onto SD's web site to check the spec's of the Ants vs the SLs . . maybe I should do that.
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Hey Patrick,
Indeed a funny story. And brave of you to work carefully with steel wool around the PUs.
I have not heard the Antiquities. What I meant about them being a touch darker was that this could be a reasonable summary of Kojak's point with the mists of discourse de-emphasized.
The SD site shows a different set of parameters for the SL compared to the Ant's. There is only partial overlap of the parameters specified - and of course one is DC resistance.
Trying to sort them out - in my opinion:
SL - A fine PAF, decent price from a company with great customer service.
Ant' - A fine PAF bending (and corroding) to current relic fads for those who enjoy this, which is of course fine.
Gib '57 - A fine PAF that gets picked at because of the Gibson ethos.
While I have not heard the Ant's, I am confident that they are a very competent way to get a great mainstream PAF sound - and that all three can be controlled from the guitar and amp to deliver the bright and articulate goods - and with a tweak of a tone knob, deliver the full and moody goods.
Interesting thread; thanks for the dance story.
Chris
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Don't use steel wool. Try Autosol! Takes off corrosion (and metal) like a bastard. They don't allow the use of Autosol to clean the barrels of rifles for good reason; it almost immediately enlarges the barrel and removes the rifling.
Back to Classic 57s. I have been tempted many many times to remove the C57s from my Gibbies and get something "boutique" and hence, "better" in search of tone. Every time I do, I tell myself perhaps I need to practise more.
I still have the C57s in my Gibbies and I still need to practise more.
If you don't sound good, perhaps you really do need to spend more time in the woodshed.
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These early PAFs tend to differ from each other significantly in terms of output level and tone - many factors are quoted as a reason for such difference:
- Gibson pickup winding machines were manually operated at that time and had no mechanisms to automatically cut the wire after a set number of turns. Thus the pickups had a different number of windings and that led to variation in the output and tone. For the same reason, the two coils within each pickup unit usually also have a slightly different number of turns.
- Gibson used Alnico magnets in PAFs, the same magnet as used in the P-90. Alnico has several different grades and different magnetic properties (grades 2, 3, 4 and 5 are usually used), and Gibson assigned them quite randomly until the end of the era of early PAFs. The most common of these was Alnico IV. British pickup designer Tim Mills of Bare Knuckle pickups had spoken with Seth Lover, who revealed that the most commonly used magnet was the Alnico IV. It has also been discovered from order sheets, that Gibson ordered many Alnico IV magnets.
- Original pickups manufactured in that time are over forty years old and thus their characteristic may have changed significantly over time, which includes the slow de-magnetization of the Alnico magnets, and also the warping of the bobbins(which changes the placement of the wire, changing the sound slightly).
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For being somebody that, by own admission, knows nothing about p'ups, boy are you opinionated! Originally Posted by PTChristopher
At least my opinions are based on the data I've collected through the years of actually working on p'ups.
HTH,
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Originally Posted by boatheelmusic
- A fair helping of hero worshipping is involved because the "legendary heroes" happened to have them gud ol' days trad' PAFs in their gits when the albums were cut and everybody wants to cop his tone and be like his hero.
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Originally Posted by Patrick2
This is my #2 guitar just after I've installed my no-reliced UOA5 Ant set. I've used a mild abrasive solution and some carefully-applied elbow grease.
I find hard to believe the story told, as I know for a fact that Ants and Seths are nowhere close to each other, specs-wise; considering I actually own and use two guitars with the forementioned sets.
The only things both sets share are the butyrate bobbins and maybe the slugs and/or polepiece screws and bar keepers. I haven't measured the PE wire used by both as I don't own a micrometer, so I couldn't tell, but they sure LOOK like pretty much the same wire to me.
The woman with the accent most likely was Maricela Juarez, head of the Custom Shop dept, and I don't believe she would say anything like it. No, I don't. Sorry!
And that's my opinion.
Last edited by LtKojak; 11-28-2012 at 04:30 PM.
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Hiya Kojak,
We are of course having this discourse in a forum for all, so I am sure we both know the idea is to kick the subject around and be a little careful to state opinion as opinion.
>>> For being somebody that, by own admission, knows nothing about p'ups, boy are you opinionated!
I definitely make sure to note what I consider opinion on my part.
I have probably only made about 50 or 60 pickups and re-wound or re-magneted about as many on top of that. So no vast expertise there.
I also hope you join me in understanding that principles and actual results exist independently of claimed longevity or expertise. We all owe ourselves more than gasbag bluster and belief.
>>> At least my opinions are based on the data I've collected through the years of actually working on p'ups.
And I appreciate what your data can bring to the subject. I am sure data can suggest that we have to be quite careful in offering expert opinion to check the DC resistance of an existing Gibson pickup as the guide to choosing an SL or Ant' PU from SD.
>>> I know for a fact that Ants and Seths are nowhere close to each other, specs-wise;
Fantastic. Then you have a data set that exceeds the mismatched SD website data. This can be very helpful and interesting.
Can you provide the magnet details (type, gauss), the coil details, and the resultant resonant peak frequency? This would be extremely helpful to the discussion.
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher; 11-28-2012 at 06:14 PM. Reason: Spelling and minor clarification
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Boatheelmusic mentions coil imbalance in Gibbo PU's.
It reminds me that way-smart Jeff Baxter once wrote a how-to article on using DC resistance to "balance" your HB PU coils for alleged amazing sweet sound.
I mean he told you to start removing coil windings based on DC resistance, then re-soldering 42 or 44 gauge magnet wire. This is not easy to do. (The soldering is not easy, anyone can easily sort out the DC resistance - to no real end in terms of fine-tuned "balance".)
Now this is one of the smartest humans ever to also play guitar on hit songs.
But we all have our moments of supreme unfortunate brain activity, and he very helpfully later published a strong withdrawal of his advice.
Which I though was a really stand-up move by the guy.
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher; 11-28-2012 at 06:19 PM. Reason: spelling / clarity
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Originally Posted by PTChristopher
I seem to remember a different name . . but, yeah . . she was identified to me as the head of the custom shop. And, I'm sure she made the whole story up . . just not to have to sell me a set of Seths. Originally Posted by LtKojak
This is my #2 guitar just after I've installed my no-reliced UOA5 Ant set. I've used a mild abrasive solution and some carefully-applied elbow grease.
I find hard to believe the story told, as I know for a fact that Ants and Seths are nowhere close to each other, specs-wise; considering I actually own and use two guitars with the forementioned sets.
The only things both sets share are the butyrate bobbins and maybe the slugs and/or polepiece screws and bar keepers. I haven't measured the PE wire used by both as I don't own a micrometer, so I couldn't tell, but they sure LOOK like pretty much the same wire to me.
The woman with the accent most likely was Maricela Juarez, head of the Custom Shop dept, and I don't believe she would say anything like it. No, I don't. Sorry!
And that's my opinion. Or . . I made the whole story up for . . . well . . who knows why???
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[Jabber]>>> Guitar players are nothing if not highly susceptible to suggestions and the opinions of the "cognoscenti". An entire industry springs up catering to this woolly headed crowd. Nothing against enterprise, y'know.
Many thanks there Jabber. Indeed nothing against enterprise, but maybe some examined decisions are a good thing too?
Chris
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Hey Kojak,
There is room for, and benefit from, very different views here. Please do provide the data you mention having and note that I hope to continue to benefit from such discussions.
Chris
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If you think I can be lured into publically revealing proprietary info from a respected company like Duncan, you can think again. Originally Posted by PTChristopher
You can do as I did: buy the p'ups and do it yourself.
This is not a discussion about tone, this is intellectual property theft.
I'm outta here.
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[quote=LtKojak;273574]If you think I can be lured into publically revealing proprietary info from a respected company like Duncan, you can think again.
You can do as I did: buy the p'ups and do it yourself.
This is not a discussion about tone, this is intellectual property theft.
Pussy!!!!I'm outta here.Last edited by Patrick2; 11-28-2012 at 08:22 PM.
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