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The guitars being produced by Bob's shop in GA are produced by a small team of luthiers under Bob's supervision. I view my OM which was built by Dana Bourgeois team as being built under a similar paradigm. A great instrument, no doubt but it was not built by Dana. It was built under his supervision and is signed by him. For $20-30k, I honestly would want and instrument built my an individual luthier.
Bob is no doubt the "master" of recent times and has influenced and taught many of the great luthiers of today, but for $20k-$30k (or far less), what Bob is charging for his team "Flagship" archtops, I would personally opt for a archtop hand built by one of today's great luthiers who still individually builds instruments like: Steve Anderson, John Buscarino, Mark Campellione, Bill Comins, Steve Grimes, Mark Lacey, Jim Mapson, Stephen Marchione, Ted Megas, Bill Moll, John Monteleone, Gary Motoro, Brad Nickerson, Gary Ribbecke, Ed Schaefer, Jim Triggs, Dale Unger, Kim Walker or Gary Zimnicki.
None of these guys (other than John Monteleone) will have the name recognition, nor value appreciation of a "Benedetto" but they are all top builders and the instrument would be made my the name on the headstock and be of extremely high quality. I suppose buying a "Benedetto" today (not one from his PA shop built buy the Master) is a bit like buying a "Gibson" in that it will appreciate in value, but that is a lot of money for a team built instrument in my view when there are so many talented luthiers who will build you a beauty.
My $.02
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11-16-2012 10:22 AM
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Hi "iim",
(Or is it Mr. 7V7IM7?)
Yeah, that is the Benedetto value proposition at this career point. Not for everyone. There are of course all sorts of philosophical and ontological arguments about where you draw the line between the maker and the team/tools.
If you did not build the router, did you really cut the binding channel yourself?
Vermeer would have mixed his own pigments (by legend anyway) as part of the art/craft of "Het Meisje met de Parel".
A wiped-on French Polish shellac is one thing, yet we revere fine work with the spray gun and manufactured lacquer as fine, individual luthierie.
From Cremona, to NYC, to Nashville there is some degree of teamwork in all cases.
The amazing part to me is that in 2012, well past the projected demise of the archtop, the guitar, life as we know it, a decent beer, nudity for fun, and pants that fit - we have GREAT options for making jazz guitar sounds.
The Asia/Pacific archtops are far better than ever at crazy-low prices, and they can get you through a gig with no problem.
The single builder proposition is under an extreme squeeze mostly from 20 to 35% of the cost, depending on how you want to calculate the supply chain part of it) being for the health insurance industry. No politics, just arithmetic. AND YET there are more great guitars than ever from single builders. Amazing.
Then there is the Benedetto and Collings propositions. Benevolent despotic rule over a fine team making superb instruments.
Sure there are a few strata in the market that have held onto their ability to make factory guitars with decidedly unpredictable workmanship. But that is half the fun I suppose.
100% agreed that there is a difference between a Benedetto and a Buscarino. But I am pretty happy that both are there.
Chris
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I totally agree.
Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
Bob's guitars are without a doubt amongst the best ever built anywhere by anyone. However, the only justification for a "discounted" price of $24,000 for an 18" arch top, built by ANYONE . . . is that someone would be willing to pay that amount. The ad shows the 18" Cremona to be discounted from $30K to $24K . . representative of a 20% discount . . (thus, to my earlier post . . the dealer vig). I don't think Bob's offering a 20% discount because he's generous, or wealthy and doesn't need the money. The market won't tolerate the $30K price point . . so instead of lowering the price point from $30K to $24K . . and thereby eliminating the potential buyer's perception of "Bob's 18" Cremona is a $30,000 guitar!!!" . . he elects to offer a special discount off of the firm $30K price point. It's a really old and tired marketing ploy.
The question now becomes .. when he can't sell enough of them at $24K to justify his price point . . will he cheap it down? Or, will he offer a deeper special discount off of the $30K price point . . say . . 40%, making the aquisition cost to a buyer $18K? . . . (still a very big number for a utilitarian arch top guitar) . . or will he scale back his operation even further and do most/all of the work as he used to, thereby dramatically reducing his overhead costs? Unless Bob's burned out to the arduous and physically demanding requirements of hand carving and building an arch top . . . the way he knows how to . . (which I witnessed first hand as it happened with Aaron Colwles no longer wanting to hand carve tops and backs) . . my guess will be that Bob will not cheap his higher end guitars down. Nor will he lower his price points . . . because doing so would/might erode the preception of quality = price point = quality in the mind's eye of the potential buyer. And also because it would be an admission that his work can no longer get the high price it demands and deserves.
A few years back, when things were signifcantly different for me . . (also read a better), I called and had a long conversation with Mark Lacey. I wanted Mark to build me an 18" Virtuouso. I told Mark how I wanted the guitar spec'd and asked him for a price. He gave me a price of $22,000. I said to him. . . "OK, but I'm really concerned about the 18 month or so waiting time. He responded that he could have a guitar to me in 5 months. I asked him why such a short wait? He said . . ."In this economy, nobody's buying $22,000 boutique built arch tops. I can start your immediately" So, naturally .. . my next question to him was . . "well, with that in mind . . and you're not backed logged with orders . . what kind of a price would you be willing to build the guitar for?" He responded, without hesitation . . . $22,000. I never moved forward with the project for personal reasons. But, I still, to this day believe that Mark's one of the best out there.
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Benedetto offers affordable models now too. So I would agree that in tough times he would probably just decrease output of the big ticket boxes.
There will always be someone to buy them, however infrequently. Probably someone high up in central planning.
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>>> Benedetto offers affordable models now too.
The Bambino cost went up very significantly as part of the dealer channel shutdown for the pro-line (affordable) models.
Oddly enough I had offered a large Benedetto dealer $1,700 for a new Bambino that was not moving, and they were stuck at $1,750. A few months later the channel changed and the new prices went to something like $4,000 for the Bambino.
Sort of funny I guess.
Chris
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Plenty of builders are still running 1-2 year wait times. My Comins should be ready next April (~1 year lead time). Bill builds them soup to nuts solo. There are just so many options made by individual craftsmen at the highest level, it is hard for me to view a team build in the same light for >2x the price. Different people might make the opposite decision.
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I kinda agree with iimV7IM7 (wow, I actually spelt that out). For the kind of money we're talking about, why not go to a one-man shop where you can get a bespoke guitar built just for you? That is assuming that you are looking for a musical instrument to play. But whom are we really kidding? Only a Gibson Super 400CES looks like a Gibson Super 400CES and by golly, if only a Gibson Super 400CES will do, then a Gibson Super 400CES it shall be. And make mine Clown Burst with abalone purfling on the sides. There are no substitutes.
I'll be the first one to admit it; I am a shallow schmoe. I buy a guitar for the way it looks, for its history, for its marque, for what it stands for. Helps if it also sounds good and plays nice(ly). I won't begrudge Bob Benedetto. If you've been around as long as Bob has and have achieved a canonisation of your guitar models, you will start a Custom Shop a la the Big Evil G too. Because, your customers won't be buying merely guitars to play, they are buying an icon, a symbol of what your archtops stand for. It is not easy to gain iconic status for the Manhattan, Venezia, Fratello. Bob does not have the time to craft them himself because his clients do not expect him to. They are perfectly contented with a Benedetto Custom Shop Manhattan, Venezia or Fratello. His guitar models have become archetypes same as the Gibson L-5, Super 400, ES-175. That is why it is sometimes useless to argue that Heritage makes better guitars for cheaper because Heritage does not make guitars that are archetypes. Gibson does.
I do not begrudge Bob Benedetto and his workshop guitars and the prices he is asking. Not easy to reach archetype status. Took Gibson 100 years or more with crises along the way. (Am I off here?) Took Bob about 20, 25 years? That's not bad for someone who started out as a one-man shop operating from his wife's kitchen.
Yup, I am shallow. I buy Gibsons because they are archetypes, not mere instruments to me. If Benedetto has reached that status where his guitars are now archetypes, bully for him.
For laughs and giggles, a few weeks ago, I enquired about a brand-new Gibson Super 400 CES offered by Musician's Friend's Private Reserve Sales. Meretriciously curly maple and all. Tarted up in Bourbon Burst. Loved it. Sorry, it has been SOLD! We are talking about a $22 000.00 archtop made by a faceless corporation, Custom Shop notwithstanding. SOLD even before I could say, How much?
We do not always buy guitars for what they are but what they stand for. And that, as PTChris always ends his theses with, is in my very humble unwashed opinion.
Edit: Sorry I rambled on and on. I'll just let it stick.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 11-16-2012 at 05:15 PM.
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http://www.njjs.org/p/jj/pdf/3906_Je...FrontCover.pdf .
Sent little frissons of delight down my spine, just from reading this article.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 11-16-2012 at 04:51 PM.
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I visited Bill's shop and his operation is quite vertically integrated. As far as I could tell aside from fret wire, tuning machines, screws/hardware, strings, and cases everything was either made custom by a supplier such as the cast brass component that fits into his ebony tail piece or they are made bespoke by Bill himself. He does all of his own CNC programming and milling of inlay. I was able to bring two of my guitars as a reference, he was able to see me play, I was able to pick out the pieces premium maple and spruce, he decided on how to tune to top based on my playing style and touch, we went over custom features. The guitar is being made by a world class luthier to meet my requirements for the same price as many of the Gibson's being discussed and for < half the price of the team made Benedetto.
Like I said, I have nothing against team made instruments made by small shops under the supervision of a master luthier. My OM was made by Dana Bourgeois team and it is as nice of a Brazilian rosewood , adirondack spruce OM as you'll find , BUT I would very it differently if it was made by Dana himself. The same goes with Bob's current crop of instruments, but I consider them differently from those produced by Bob in PA years ago.
That being said, I am sure that a Savannah Manhattan or Fratello will appreciate in value because it bears the master's name. A Gibson L5 CES will also always appreciate. A Comins while respected, will likely depreciate unless i own it for many years. BUT, I don't think they will be as finely crafted as a bespoke instrument made by someone with Bill's skill/experience nor would they meet my personal needs as well. Paying for the Benedetto "name" @ > 2x the price for name recognition and future appreciation made little sense for me when I made my decision.
My $.02
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FWIW, last I checked in, Bob B still makes a small number of high end custom instruments himself, in addition to the production line he oversees, largely made by highly qualified craftsmen under his supervision. That said, just because their are scads of low output private luthiers who can build a cheap guitar does not guarantee it will be good. That is where the years of experience come in. Many of the best builders have devoted years and years to making the same guitar over and over, with a few variables here and there, in order to find their own magic formula. 251 posted a list of luthiers and several on that list really stand out to me as great builders. The better ones will command a premium for their work per the usual supply and demand theory. I will just suggest there are very few budget builders making Benedetto-quality guitars at a fraction of Benedetto prices.
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congrats on the Comins, I love his work too!
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Hi Guys,
Hey you have covered a lot of ground in this string. I haven't read it all so I might be repeating what is already here BUT .... BE CAREFUL there are some FAKES out there. BUT you can tell!!
Firstly, let me say I am a great fan of the GB JS Award. I have two, one signed and the other not. Maybe later I will say just why I rate them so highly (its all about their tone, playability and feel as well as their looks).
But, for now, here are some pointers.
FAKE 1. There are some AA that have been re-badged as JS. When production ceased there were a small batch of JS headstock logos that found their way onto the open market and these have been used to "convert" a few AA'. You can always tell when you have them in your hands because the "black" doesn't match and the masking around the binding is often not as good as at the factory so the black spils over the binding (just a tad) but an expert can tell. Trouble is, these days we often buy without holding the guitar first. Always ask for close up pics.
Fake No2. Some genuine JS have been retro-signed with the Johnny Smith Gold Pen. Yes its Gold, not Silver. Most importantly, it was only Johnny who signed the 18 guitars - Bob Benedetto did NOT sign them. So, if you see one signed by Johnny and Bob, start asking a lot of questions. There are other ways you can tell but you'll just think I'm a nurd. Actually I collect these lovely things so I make VERY SURE before I buy anything!!!
On a lesser point, it was not the first 18 that were signed. The JS model was introduces in 2002 and continued until 2005. The signing took place in 2004 so look out for serial numbers around the 50's to 60's but I can't be absolutely certain. My good friends at Fender say that Guild did not keep records of exactly which serial numbers were signed.
I love the older Guilds and I appreciate them all over the years BUt in my experience the GB JS Award is the best Guild of them all. I have no criticism of mine at all. I suspect they are better even that the original JS Award.
www.justjazzguitars.com
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Hi Guys,
Hey you have covered a lot of ground in this string. I haven't read it all so I might be repeating what is already here BUT .... BE CAREFUL there are some FAKES out there. BUT you can tell!!
Firstly, let me say I am a great fan of the GB JS Award. I have two, one signed and the other not. Maybe later I will say just why I rate them so highly (its all about their tone, playability and feel as well as their looks).
But, for now, here are some pointers.
FAKE 1. There are some AA that have been re-badged as JS. When production ceased there were a small batch of JS headstock logos that found their way onto the open market and these have been used to "convert" a few AA'. You can always tell when you have them in your hands because the "black" doesn't match and the masking around the binding is often not as good as at the factory so the black spils over the binding (just a tad) but an expert can tell. Trouble is, these days we often buy without holding the guitar first. Always ask for close up pics.
Fake No2. Some genuine JS have been retro-signed with the Johnny Smith Gold Pen. Yes its Gold, not Silver. Most importantly, it was only Johnny who signed the 18 guitars - Bob Benedetto did NOT sign them. So, if you see one signed by Johnny and Bob, start asking a lot of questions. There are other ways you can tell but you'll just think I'm a nurd. Actually I collect these lovely things so I make VERY SURE before I buy anything!!!
On a lesser point, it was not the first 18 that were signed. The JS model was introduces in 2002 and continued until 2005. The signing took place in 2004 so look out for serial numbers around the 50's to 60's but I can't be absolutely certain. My good friends at Fender say that Guild did not keep records of exactly which serial numbers were signed.
I love the older Guilds and I have appreciated them all over the years But in my experience the GB JS Award is the best Guild of them all. I have no criticism of mine at all.
Here is some more info: The justjazzguitars Collection
www.justjazzguitars.com
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Many years ago, I purchased the 2004 Guild Benedetto Masterbuilt Stuart from you, it's a beautifully built high quality guitar. It was a pleasure to buy the guitar from you. Originally Posted by justjazzguitars
Many thanks
Guy
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Hello Guy,
I remember you well. You came with your wife to my home and lost yourself with that wonderful guitar for a couple of hours. I had often wondered it you still have it. It is a guitar that I remember with affection - very mellow.
Merry Christmas to you and your family. Alan
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I believe I may have purchased that guitar ?? it is magnificent. Originally Posted by Patrick2
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