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  1. #51

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    always wanted to like heritage more than i do. but i've never seen one on the used market that was spec'ed exactly as i would have one done. going "custom" raises the price a lot and if i don't like it, i'm stuck with it, given my taste. aren't a lot around to try out, either.

    then again, never saw a gibson built just the way i'd like it, either.

    and i don't (completely) hate the heritage headstock, but i wish there was more leeway with it. make it bigger, or a little shorter, or something. binding helps. considering they made some of the most awesome headstocks ever (the old epiphone ones), you'd think they'd know how to make them a little more palatable.

    having said all that, i've looked real hard at several heritages, and have had a few close calls (even outbid once), but it hasn't happened yet. more of an impulse shopper on the used market, so i'm not really the kind of guy to wait 6-9 months for one, either.

    gibsons are fun to look at, but that'll probably never happen for me. don't care about the name, and i money goes further elsewhere.

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  3. #52

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    My 575 has prettier wood and a nicer finish than you'll ever find on a 175.

    Headstock is a little plain though...my buddy called it a "butterface" girl.

    I had to google it.

  4. #53

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    Hiya Patrick,

    First off, man I hope you and yours are in good shape (post-storm) down there in NJ.

    Also, we are all sort of telling Heritage what they are doing wrong - but there is the possibility that they are both making money and at capacity. I forget if it was David Ricardo , or probably some other economist who theorised on peak production frontiers and such. It is possible that Heritage is better off with the local bake-sale style website and limited distribution.

    Chris

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2
    Chris


    OK . . . . . . ??? . . . [/quote]

    it was purported that one guitar cost "about half" of the other. if so the 35% discount is half as much discount too.

    that's all.

  6. #55

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    [quote=Patrick2;268665]
    Quote Originally Posted by .02$

    Actually . . . that is an H575 Custom . . . but, with additional custom spec's. (It's also really pretty!!)

    Just to address fumblefingers' comments on a "beauty contest" . . I would assume you're talking about the oft' maligned Heritage head stock?? Because, other than that, it would be very hard for you or anyone else to make a case that an ES 175 is any more beautiful than a Sweet 16 . . or even an H575. You could, however, make an argument that to you the 175 would win such a contest . . just as others could make an argument the it wouldn't. That's the subjectivity of guitar aesthetics. But, so too is the head stock issue.
    not that it matters what i think, but since this is all all opinion based anyway...

    1. no it's not about the headstock. i think that most all Heritage guitars look like oddly shaped Gibsons. sorry 'bout that chief. i like the Sweet 16 though.

    2. i have never been a fan of the Gibson ES-175, in any way, shape, or form.

  7. #56
    Fumble, you were right about the street price on that guitar, I was mistaken. But even considering street prices, you still are paying close to twice as much for laminates (and magazine ads and product endorsements for the Jonas brothers), as opposed to solid woods and and a product that's in every way as good (not accounting for personal preferences).
    Last edited by amusiathread; 11-11-2012 at 04:23 PM.

  8. #57

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    I like them both ... they can both build a great guitar

    They sound and feel very different to me

    I have lots Gibsons ... but only one Heritage ... wouldn't mind owning a few more Heritages's

    But even here in the US they are hard to find ... I think there is a dealer in the Phoenix area ... but that's over 2 hours away and I've never been by to see what kind of stock they carry


  9. #58

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    Y'know how a duckling takes the first object it sees as its mother? Same thing with guitar players. The first thing a guitar player sees is either a Gibson or a Fender. Usually, he sees a Fender first but lusts after a Gibson after getting more nous. So, the Big G gets burnt into his little brain, y'know, when I grow up to be a REAL guitar player, I'm gonna get myself a Gibson like Jimmie (hendrix and page).

    After lusting after a Gibson Les Paul since 1976, I finally got around to getting one (on layaway and a used one at that, damn it). It shall be delivered by the guitar gods in February 2013.

    Maybe Heritage needs to be the first guitar every nascent guitar player sees.........

    Only a Gibson is good enough. And it is true. I buy into that crap because it got the corner of my little mind.

    In my shallow part of town, the haves drive a Merc, wear a Rolex, are shod in John Lobb and play a Gibson. (When they play. Otherwise, a Steinway Hamburg or one of the 3 Bs: Bluthner, Bechstein, Bosendorfer.) The also-rans drive an Opel, wear a Tudor, are shod in Adidas, and play a Heritage (or a Yamaha/Kawai).

    Them's the breaks, I'm afraid.

  10. #59

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    New Gibson L4, online discounted: $5800 at Musicians Friend
    New Heritage 575 online discounted: $2700 at Bannana's at Large

    On Ebay, a 1990's Gibson L4 is about $3500
    On Ebay a 1990's Heritage 575 is about $1750

    L4 takes a 40% drop or $2300.
    575 takes a 35% drop or about $1000

    Yes.. there are examples on Ebay of $5700 L4's and $3200 575's and, conversely, there are occasionally good deals. However, the numbers I cited appear to be about average.

    I see no reason for a Gibson to cost one cent more than a Heritage. Given the small shop attention Heritage guitars get and being able to spec things like neck profile, a Heritage should cost more.

    Folks that hang out in Jazz forums are likely more informed, but general consumers are kind of dumb.
    Last edited by Spook410; 11-11-2012 at 05:11 PM.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers
    OK . . . . . . ??? . . .
    it was purported that one guitar cost "about half" of the other. if so the 35% discount is half as much discount too.

    that's all.[/quote]

    Gibson L5CES Musician's Friend MSRP $14,115. At a 40% discount, street selling price is $8,500.

    Heritage Eagle Classic . . (pretty much an L5CES) MSRP $5,520. At a 40% discount $3,312

    Heritage Golden Eagle, spec'd with 2 inset pups, MSRP $7,100. At a 40% discount $4,260.

    Gibson L5CES . . . used price mint condition . . $5,000 (non vintage)
    Heritage Golden Eagle . . used price . . mint condition, $3,000

    Gibson L5CES . . retained value . . 41%
    Heritage GE . . retained value . . . 70%

    Loss in dollars:

    Gibson . . . . . . . $3,500
    Heritage GE . . . $1,260

    Used L5CES' might be selling for $200 or $300 below $5,000
    Used GEs might be selling for $200 or $300 below $3,000

    But, you get the Idea. The numbers don't lie! Would you like me to make a similar comparison with the Super 400 against the Super Eagle? The numbers look even uglier for Gibson in that comparison.

    Now, with that being said, you'l not find a stronger supporter/lover of Gibson Historic Collection arch top guitars than I am, anywhere on the plant!! However, I would defy anyone to make the argument that the L5CES' and the Super 400s are any better than their Heritage counter parts.

    Now, the invaluable intangible . . . ONLY an L5CES, is an L5CES . . . and ONLY a Super 400, is a Super 400 . . . and that's a fact!!!

  12. #61

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    Playing a Heritage is somewhat like schtupping a Supermodel.......'s sister. Comes from the same set of parents, sounds almost the same, and from a certain angle when the light falls just right, even looks like the Supermodel. What's not to like? Except that you know she ain't her Supermodel sister, Heidi/Charlize/Monica (Klum/Theron/Bellucci).

    It's like always getting the second prize in a competition, always coming in first loser. Somehow, it falls just a little short. Almost the same and some may say, better than but still......

    MIT man takes part in a DARPA competition. Design the mother of all UAVs. Full of stealth and yet invincible. MIT man goes to work, creative gears whirring. Time passes. He's got it. An idea like no other. DARPA will marvel at his genius. Day of the verdict arrives. MIT man finds the field is whittled down and he is one of two finalists. Drum roll. The winner is about to be announced. And the Second Prize goes to.......Man from MIT.

    He is enraged. F##K George Double U Bush, he yells. A hush descends over the hall. And then a little voice says, over the PA, "Thanks for ruining it. That's the first prize, you assh0le."

    (First prize goes to man from CalTech. It always does.)
    Last edited by Jabberwocky; 11-11-2012 at 05:42 PM.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2
    it was purported that one guitar cost "about half" of the other. if so the 35% discount is half as much discount too.

    that's all.

    Gibson L5CES Musician's Friend MSRP $14,115. At a 40% discount, street selling price is $8,500.

    Heritage Eagle Classic . . (pretty much an L5CES) MSRP $5,520. At a 40% discount $3,312

    Heritage Golden Eagle, spec'd with 2 inset pups, MSRP $7,100. At a 40% discount $4,260.

    Gibson L5CES . . . used price mint condition . . $5,000 (non vintage)
    Heritage Golden Eagle . . used price . . mint condition, $3,000

    Gibson L5CES . . retained value . . 41%
    Heritage GE . . retained value . . . 70%

    Loss in dollars:

    Gibson . . . . . . . $3,500
    Heritage GE . . . $1,260

    Used L5CES' might be selling for $200 or $300 below $5,000
    Used GEs might be selling for $200 or $300 below $3,000

    But, you get the Idea. The numbers don't lie! Would you like me to make a similar comparison with the Super 400 against the Super Eagle? The numbers look even uglier for Gibson in that comparison.

    Now, with that being said, you'l not find a stronger supporter/lover of Gibson Historic Collection arch top guitars than I am, anywhere on the plant!! However, I would defy anyone to make the argument that the L5CES' and the Super 400s are any better than their Heritage counter parts.

    Now, the invaluable intangible . . . ONLY an L5CES, is an L5CES . . . and ONLY a Super 400, is a Super 400 . . . and that's a fact!!!
    YES, work the numbers for both the SE and a Sweet 16 vs. an L4, just for its 'n grins...GREAT POST!!!!!!!!!!!

    now we're cookin' with DASH!

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410
    New Gibson L4, online discounted: $5800 at Musicians Friend
    New Heritage 575 online discounted: $2700 at Bannana's at Large

    On Ebay, a 1990's Gibson L4 is about $3500
    On Ebay a 1990's Heritage 575 is about $1750

    L4 takes a 40% drop or $2300.
    575 takes a 35% drop or about $1000

    Thanks for doing the math. I could never understand how some people using the same available date came up with the opposite results.

    So the L4 cost more than twice as much as the 575 and does not hold its resale value as well.

    - Not to mention custom color, pickup choice and neck carve.

    Being that they both will play and sound great, I went with Heritage as a better deal. Being able to meet the owners/ builders in person and speak to them during the build process was also a value added.

    I see no reason for a Gibson to cost one cent more than a Heritage. Given the small shop attention Heritage guitars get and being able to spec things like neck profile, a Heritage should cost more.

    Gibson must charge more because... paying off their debt from buying Norlin, advertising budget, artist promotions, middle management, upper management, legal issues, website design sales and distrubution networks. They need to keep manufacturing even with diminished sales due to higher operating expense. Their dealers need to keep stocks while Heritage only builds when they have an order. At times, bigger is not better.
    Does that make sense?

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2
    it was purported that one guitar cost "about half" of the other. if so the 35% discount is half as much discount too.

    that's all.
    Gibson L5CES Musician's Friend MSRP $14,115. At a 40% discount, street selling price is $8,500.

    Heritage Eagle Classic . . (pretty much an L5CES) MSRP $5,520. At a 40% discount $3,312

    Heritage Golden Eagle, spec'd with 2 inset pups, MSRP $7,100. At a 40% discount $4,260.

    Gibson L5CES . . . used price mint condition . . $5,000 (non vintage)
    Heritage Golden Eagle . . used price . . mint condition, $3,000

    Gibson L5CES . . retained value . . 41%
    Heritage GE . . retained value . . . 70%

    Loss in dollars:

    Gibson . . . . . . . $3,500
    Heritage GE . . . $1,260

    Used L5CES' might be selling for $200 or $300 below $5,000
    Used GEs might be selling for $200 or $300 below $3,000

    But, you get the Idea. The numbers don't lie! Would you like me to make a similar comparison with the Super 400 against the Super Eagle? The numbers look even uglier for Gibson in that comparison.

    Now, with that being said, you'l not find a stronger supporter/lover of Gibson Historic Collection arch top guitars than I am, anywhere on the plant!! However, I would defy anyone to make the argument that the L5CES' and the Super 400s are any better than their Heritage counter parts.

    Now, the invaluable intangible . . . ONLY an L5CES, is an L5CES . . . and ONLY a Super 400, is a Super 400 . . . and that's a fact!!!
    Dude, dude, dude, who shops for L-5s at Musician's Friend? It is like going to Walmart for a Patek Phillipe.

    Look, man. I have an issue with the numbers you quoted. Over at an authorized Gibson dealer, an L-5 Wes Montgomery Sunburst has a MAP of $7799. Street is $6850. Lower if you pay cash. A Natural L-5CES has a MAP of $9999. Street is about $8700.

    Yes, you can find an L-5CES used for $5000......NORLIN ERA ones. And pretty well used ones at that. A post 90s Jim Hutchins L-5CES Natural is more like $6500 in Excellent Plus condition.

    You forget about rate of appreciation on a Gibson. Yessiree, Gibson archtops appreciate in price every year. So, you may have bought a circa 1998 L-5CES Natural for $5000 in 1998 and may sell it for $6500 in 2012.

    What's the rate of appreciation on a Heritage?

    The Eagle Classic is not the equivalent of an L-5CES. The Eagle Classic has laminated back and sides and a solid spruce top. It is like the L-5 Studio. Last I observed, the L-5 Studio was selling from upwards of $3000 to $4000. I believe the L-5 Studio had a street price of below $3000 when it was launched in the late 90s.

    The Golden Eagle is the L-5CES's equivalent in that it has a solid carved spruce top and solid maple back and sides. Ask Joe Vinikow how quickly he sells L-5 Wes Montgomery archies. Joe V. sells them even before he has time to list them. The last one I know, a 1998 Sunburst, fine and curly, sold for $6500. How much was it in 1998, new? $4500, if my memory serves me.

    A wise gentleman, Danny, a fine jazz player and collector of Gibsons, shared with me that he bought a Super 400 Western Sky for $4300 in 1993 and sold it for $5400 in 1994 or 1995. That same Super 400 Western Sky is selling for upwards of $8500 today.

    I don't look at guitars as investment but smart money is on Gibson. I was quoted $5650 plus dollars on a Heritage Super Eagle in 2009. I notice that same Super Eagle selling for $3000 and under today.

    Find me a Heritage which has doubled in price or at least, appreciated. Every Heritage loses its owner money. There is no chance of appreciating unlike the much reviled Gibson. You may say that the market is made of up fools for allowing Gibson to jack up its MSRP every year but the market buys it. The market won't buy it for Heritage.
    Last edited by Jabberwocky; 11-11-2012 at 06:18 PM.

  16. #65

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    Musician's Friend for a Gibson L-4CES? Seriously? Wagyu beef burger at MacDonald's too?

    At my favorite authorized Gibson dealer, a new unsold unused L-4CES Natural, made in 2011, can be had for $4755.00 cash. Add 2% for credit card purchases.

    (It was $3695 in 2009 before a rash of price increases in 2010.)

    You guys are quoting skewed numbers to bolster your case. This is being very disingenuous.

    Dream Guitars sold a 2008 L-4CES for $3395. I got a quote for an L-4CES in 2009/2010 before the price increase, of $3695. That represents only a drop of smaller than 10%.

    And the 1959 VOS ES-175 single pup can be bought for below $3500, new, with full warranty, from an authorized Gibson dealer.
    Last edited by Jabberwocky; 11-11-2012 at 06:38 PM.

  17. #66

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    Gotta disagree Jabb.. neither a Gibson or a Heritage appreciate in an investment sense. While my Heritage 535 and H445 will sell for a lot more than I paid for them back in 1989, the math has to consider what a dollar was worth then vs. now and other factors. That, and you can't cherry pick examples. I think picking mega-online retailer is more reasonable than your local shop on sale for old stock they can't move. That's why I chose online retailers and Ebay and mid-1990's guitars.

    I like Gibson guitars. I also like Heritage. I don't think you'll lose a lot on either if you wait and buy the right used guitar. On the other hand, I really don't see where Gibson gets off with charging so much for new ones.

  18. #67

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    Sorry, Pat2. Nobody pays $3000 for a mint used Golden Eagle. The last one I saw sold for $2380.00. Mint. And an X-braced floater. The Eagle Classic struggles to find $1800. A Super Eagle with curly maple sold for $2540. Same seller.

    I haven't found any 2012 L-5CES for sale used yet this year. I just saw a Super Eagle on ebay selling for $3150.

    Folks tend to hold onto their Gibsons.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410
    Gotta disagree Jabb.. neither a Gibson or a Heritage appreciate in an investment sense. While my Heritage 535 and H445 will sell for a lot more than I paid for them back in 1989, the math has to consider what a dollar was worth then vs. now and other factors. That, and you can't cherry pick examples. I think picking mega-online retailer is more reasonable than your local shop on sale for old stock they can't move. That's why I chose online retailers and Ebay and mid-1990's guitars.

    I like Gibson guitars. I also like Heritage. I don't think you'll lose a lot on either if you wait and buy the right used guitar. On the other hand, I really don't see where Gibson gets off with charging so much for new ones.
    The authorized Gibson dealer I quoted is one of Gibson's three largest dealers of select Gibsons in the USA. He gets special stock that nobody else does.

    You think that I am referring to some mom and pop store with old dusty unmovable stock? The stuff I am referring to is brand-new top shelf stuff. And yes, he has an online presence, a big one.

    I quoted real numbers on Gibson guitars that I have observed. How much is the 1998 US dollar worth today? Do the math, Spook. According to an online calculator, $5000 in 1998 is worth $7100 in 2012. Not too bad for a 1998 L-5 to sell for $6500 today. You get 12 years of use out of it for $600.

    How much is a 1998 Golden Eagle worth today? I don't know so please educate me.
    Last edited by Jabberwocky; 11-11-2012 at 07:01 PM.

  20. #69

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    Wow guys. You are all cyber-pals in my book, but maybe we are picking number-nits here.

    The basic concepts and opinions are out there. How does this other stuff help?

    Chris

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    Playing a Heritage is somewhat like schtupping a Supermodel.......'s sister. Comes from the same set of parents, sounds almost the same, and from a certain angle when the light falls just right, even looks like the Supermodel. What's not to like? Except that you know she ain't her Supermodel sister, Heidi/Charlize/Monica (Klum/Theron/Bellucci).

    It's like always getting the second prize in a competition, always coming in first loser. Somehow, it falls just a little short. Almost the same and some may say, better than but still......
    Nah, I don't look at it that way at all. Playing a Heritage may be like schtupping a Supermodel's sister but, that's not necessarily a bad thing or second best. First of all, the sister may have a better personality, isn't under the same dietary restrictions and looks more like a woman than a concentration camp victim. On top of that, the sister may not (I hope) be as high maintenance as her famous sister nor as demanding as her and way less of a bitch to deal with. Again, on top of that, everyone else is after the famous sister so yours is all yours with no one trying to take her away from you. I'd rather take the GE than the L5 at this point.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    Sorry, Pat2. Nobody pays $3000 for a mint used Golden Eagle. The last one I saw sold for $2380.00. Mint. And an X-braced floater. The Eagle Classic struggles to find $1800. A Super Eagle with curly maple sold for $2540. Same seller.

    I haven't found any 2012 L-5CES for sale used yet this year. I just saw a Super Eagle on ebay selling for $3150.

    Folks tend to hold onto their Gibsons.
    You truly have no idea what you are talking about. True, you'll be able to buy the occasional GE for inside $2,500. But, for the really great condition ones . . . well, just check Jay Wolfe's site as well as other who have recently purchased GEs or SEs. Further, in your other thread you ranted about my bad numbers . . . when I said street price for an L5CES was $8,500 and you went on to quote a blond, Hutchins label guitar for $8,700. What are you talking about . . . . "dude"??? There are currently 3 L5s on ebay right now. Two Wesmos . . . been on there on and off forever at $6,250 and $7,999. There's also an L5CES that isn't selling and the listing has ended. Gee . . . I wonder if the $7,000+ price had anything to do with that.???

    I really don't know the point you are trying to prove here.?.? If you feel that Heritage guitars are not a value for the money . . . then, by all means . . . keep buying Gibsons.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
    Nah, I don't look at it that way at all. Playing a Heritage may be like schtupping a Supermodel's sister but, that's not necessarily a bad thing or second best. First of all, the sister may have a better personality, isn't under the same dietary restrictions and looks more like a woman than a concentration camp victim. On top of that, the sister may not (I hope) be as high maintenance as her famous sister nor as demanding as her and way less of a bitch to deal with. Again, on top of that, everyone else is after the famous sister so yours is all yours with no one trying to take her away from you. I'd rather take the GE than the L5 at this point.
    Ok hfc . . . I know what you're trying to say. And, as it relates to guitars I do agree with your anology. But, jabber did mention . . . Charlize Theron. I really don't care what her sister or sisters might look like. Nor do I care if Charlize is high maintenance. If I gotta poke someone from her family . . . well, I'm gonna do Charlize. I really have no idea what God was trying to accomplish . . . other than to really mess with the minds of men . . . when he created Charlize.

    Oh . . by the way WTF was jabber talking about with that MIT anology??? Did he go through a bad situation at school????
    Last edited by Patrick2; 11-11-2012 at 08:04 PM.

  24. #73

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    Nobody is going to make much money speculating on most guitars, certainly not jazz boxes, even Gibsons, Particularly new Gibsons. I have a dead mint early 60s L5 that apparently isn't even Worth the value of "plank" Fender guitars from the same period. How pathetic is that? Who cares. I wouldn't trade my guitar for a plank guitar from any year. Even the people on this board who have many guitars seem to be mainly players. Or people who enjoy playing the guitar.

    A used heritage is great value for money. It usually retains whatever you paid for it. So, if you want to sell it, you can usually get your money back. I guess that a new heritage will still take a hit, but, since it is totally custom, you can really get what you really want in the guitar. Which you cannot do with a Gibson.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    Nobody is going to make much money speculating on most guitars, certainly not jazz boxes, even Gibsons, Particularly new Gibsons. I have a dead mint early 60s L5 that apparently isn't even Worth the value of "plank" Fender guitars from the same period. How pathetic is that? Who cares. I wouldn't trade my guitar for a plank guitar from any year. Even the people on this board who have many guitars seem to be mainly players. Or people who enjoy playing the guitar.

    A used heritage is great value for money. It usually retains whatever you paid for it. So, if you want to sell it, you can usually get your money back. I guess that a new heritage will still take a hit, but, since it is totally custom, you can really get what you really want in the guitar. Which you cannot do with a Gibson.
    Hey man . . . . that was very well said, and in my opinion dead nuts on. When you look at these products from these two builders and you do so objectively . . . there really isn't too much to quibble about. They're both fantastic instruments . . . . and expertly built. (of course, I speak of Gibson only as it relates to their Custom Shop in Nashville)

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    The authorized Gibson dealer I quoted is one of Gibson's three largest dealers of select Gibsons in the USA. He gets special stock that nobody else does.

    You think that I am referring to some mom and pop store with old dusty unmovable stock? The stuff I am referring to is brand-new top shelf stuff. And yes, he has an online presence, a big one.

    I quoted real numbers on Gibson guitars that I have observed. How much is the 1998 US dollar worth today? Do the math, Spook. According to an online calculator, $5000 in 1998 is worth $7100 in 2012. Not too bad for a 1998 L-5 to sell for $6500 today. You get 12 years of use out of it for $600.

    How much is a 1998 Golden Eagle worth today? I don't know so please educate me.
    Yes. If you use an inflation calculator you find that you don't 'double your money' and stuff. If you figure something other than putting money in a mattress and compare to say, stock or bond returns, you come out even worse on guitars.

    If your store has published prices for Heritage and Gibson, I'm happy to use those. If they don't, why do you object to using Guitar Center, Musicians Friend, and Jay Wolfe? What's wrong with using Ebay as an example of the value of a used instrument? That way, everyone can see the numbers and make their own comparisons.

    It seems like you're trying to say that, if you sell it say 10-15 years later, you'll come out better financially with a Gibson versus a comparable Heritage and I simply don't think that's true but I'm certainly happy for you to have your own opinion.