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Bob did formally study violin making but I have no idea how long that was or how intensive it was. I'm pretty sure that's where his info is coming from.
Originally Posted by Patrick2
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10-25-2012 11:07 PM
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Here is the US Fish and Wildlife Affidavit laying out the reasoning (with which one may or may not agree) for the search warrants that started the whole Gibson flap.
It is really not all that long, and does lay out a fairly clear set of circumstances.
In my opinion.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...sonWarrant.pdf
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Bob made violins, master grade ones. A photograph of the one that he made for Stephane Grapelli is included in his book. its stunning. Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
http://benedettoguitars.com/about/ab...detto-violins/
http://ricardoochoa.wordpress.com/20...detto-violins/Last edited by fumblefingers; 10-26-2012 at 08:45 AM.
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Originally Posted by Patrick2
Bob is a violin maker, an Italian one. Traditions with any number of things are handed down over time, as I'm sure you're aware.
Cutting to the chase then, how long do you think fretboards should be air dried, if at all?
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With all possible respect to Bob, ebony is ebony for the most part. Ebony is pretty unstable so it moves a lot in service therefore it is a good idea to use seasoned or dried stock. A guitar fingerboard is going to be about .250" while a cello fingerboard is going to be in the neighborhood of 17mm. It certainly won't take twenty years for stock of those dimensions to dry. Remember that all the violin traditions were started hundreds of years before climate control and kiln drying. But directly to your first post any guitar maker can buy from the same suppliers as the violin and cello makers. The wood suppliers don't descriminate. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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ff . . your post (above) was in response to my post #23. To answer your "cutting to the chase" question, I would refer you back to the post you replied to. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
Again . . no one is dis'ing a master like Bob Benedetto. Either he was mis-quoted, or he's dead wrong. There are far too many variables in the wood itself for someone .. .anyone . . to accurately put a time line on when a piece of wood is dry enough to be deemed ready to work with.
You point out that Bob is an Italian violin maker. I think we're all aware of that. In fact, I seem to remember reading somewhere that he was a master level violin maker long before he ever made his first arch top guitar. As I pointed out earlier, John D'Angelico was an Italian guitar maker. Some (myself excluded) consider him to be the best guitar maker ever to live. I'm sure he too learned from traditions passed down . . albeit not from the 1600s. But, it's pretty likely that some of traditions embraced and employed by John D'A were derived from those very same violin makers from the 1600s . . . as was Lloyd Loar's concept of utilizing F holes in the L5, instead of round/oval holes.
When a master luthier picks up a piece of wood, he'll more than likely know almost instantly if it's ready.
After reading and posting on this thread yesterday, I did what I usually do to further my knowledge. I called some who know more than I do. (that's a HUGE list of people) I spoke to Ronaldo Orlandoni . . whose name I have mentioned here before. Orlando is approx 73 years old. He comes from a little town in the Anconi region of Italy. The town is Castelfidardo.
Castelfidardo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As a boy, he apprenticed under some obviously very old school instrument builders. He said, "Pat . . we no learna froma books. We learna froma the masters. Whena we make a mistake . . we get a slap in the back of a the head"
He explaind in detail how they were taught to select only the finest wood . . . ebony included. Then, it was blocked and cross stacked and left outdoors, sheltered from the rain and snow for 3 years. Then it was brought indoors and left alone for at least another year before anyone even touched it. After the 4 years or so of aging . . . it was almost always ready to use.
He did also say that if someone has the luxury of letting ebony dry for 20 years, and they can manage to keep it from drying out too much . . . then that's even better yet. But, he said it's really not necessary to wait 20 years. The difference would be negligibleLast edited by Patrick2; 10-27-2012 at 03:02 PM.
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You know, I haven't read Bob's book, and I have absolutely huge respect for those that can take raw materials and craft them into something amazing like a guitar or a violin; however, as a player you know I've never thought about any of these questions. For me it's about how a guitar feels and sounds. I sure that if you lined up four well made, quality arch tops I couldn't tell which had the kiln/air/moisture control dried wood in it, but I would know which one I liked based on feel and sound. It makes me want to ask the question
Would you really base your decision on purchasing an instrument based on how long or the method chosen to dry the wood? Or other issues regarding the build. I realize that there are characteristics that do make a difference (ie bracing, or lamination vs solid wood) but in then end wouldn't you choose the one that felt and sounded the best?
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Originally Posted by Patrick2
it's a good thing, and it's a good thing that a good luthier, as you say, can tell if a piece of wood is good or not, because in this day and age there is just no way that the average or even above average guitar will have wood that is aged for decades.
such guitars can be had of course, and they are predictably pricey. its fair to say that the Benedetto Manhattan, Limelight, Cremona are not your average guitars though. Bob's passion was, and is, "master grade" instruments, i think we all get that too.
for that matter neither are Paulino Bernabe Jr.'s Imperial and Royal models average. Their spruce tops are aged 30 and 40 years respectively.
http://www.bernabe-guitars.com/venta
peace, out.Last edited by fumblefingers; 10-27-2012 at 01:34 AM.
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generally speaking yes, but within some parameters. people typically look for a certain class of guitar and others in it's range to compare it to. they are usualy looking for something in particular, and are almost always constrained by price. when price is not an object they tend to look for the finest instruments and don't bother looking at less expensive models to compete with it. Originally Posted by reedy
you know, same as with a home, auto, boat, etc.
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[Reedy]>>> Would you really base your decision on purchasing an instrument based on how long or the method chosen to dry the wood?
Hiya Reedy.
The relationship of price and value (or quality) gets pretty silly at the top cost end of many markets. "Finest" can become based on some seemingly unlikely parameters.
So yeah, when one is trying to spend as much as humanly possible, it is arguably to meet some needs that have less and less to do with the sound and playability of the guitar, and more to do with personal validation of various sorts.
So yeah, the reported methods used to season wood, or conjure spirits, can very well overtake sound and playability.
[Reedy] >>> I realize that there are characteristics that do make a difference (ie bracing, or lamination vs solid wood) but in then end wouldn't you choose the one that felt and sounded the best?
I think that many players would. But many enjoy other aspects of owning guitars, and the story behind the build process can be a big part of this enjoyment.
In my opinion there is room for everyone and every sensibility in this tiny world of archtops.
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher; 10-27-2012 at 07:15 AM.
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Well reedy . . . you may already be basing your decision on those very things you feel are irrelavent . . . especially if you are considering a used or a vintage instrument. You indicate that you would base your decision for a guitar, upon what felt and sounded the best. Sometimes, those very same attributes are in fact due to the way the wood was, or wasn't dried. As stated by Ol' fret in an earlier post on this matter . . (prior to his indignent closing of that post) . . if a builder takes a piece of maple before it is adequately dried . . . and makes a neck out of it . . . . then uses a still too wet piece of ebony for the finger board . . . there's a better than average chance that the neck will continue to move, warp, twist . . etc., as it dries further under the pressures and tensions of strings and a truss rod. Ronaldo sums it up this way . . . "the wood is moving because it's still alive". So, there goes the "feel" aspect of the choice, right out the window. Originally Posted by reedy
Regarding the sound/tone . . . similarly with spruce and maple used for the body. You want to hear an absolutely dead and sterile arch top tone?? Have a builder make you a guitar from a tree that was just felled! And that doesn't even take into account the lack of strength due to a too high moisture content. Top sag????
For a better understand of which is the better procedure for properly drying the wood . . natural exposure to air, kiln or controlled drying rooms . . . . you'll need a far better understanding of the composition of wood than I could ever help you with. But, PT Chris has an abundance of knowledge on this topic.
If you want to see how long this topic has been kicked around . . and how "all over the place" opinions from "the experts" have been . . this is a really good read . . .
Wood Drying Conditions and Musical Instrument Sound QualityLast edited by Patrick2; 10-27-2012 at 11:37 AM.
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It’s always a pleasure to be with some sincere and knowledgeable friends… So what did we learn in this thread from our special friends, fumbling around in the darkwoods? Ah, yes, Bob Benedetto is a theoretician; but he’s good for the USeconomy, so don’t bash him. Second, as usual, people have to be kindly awestruck in one second, when the G- and K-(’zoo) word is mentioned; sort of absolutism or ersatz religion, when you have to fall down on your knees. Could make one feel like being a troll in a forum about the main topic “Our best poultry”.
What has the Lacey Act to do in the ebony wood context? Does it prevent US luthiers from building violins etc. the way they ever did and to the dimensions they need? No. Does it keep guitar companies like Gibson off using higher grade ebony fretboards? No. If the latter don’t use them anymore, it is because of their own reluctance or cost-cutting measures, and because they have finally to apply to laws and pay regular world market prices for tropical hardwoods. Well, it’seasy to blame it on some laws and politicians, not on your own bogus claim! It’s the fear of the huge, up-coming Asian production… which will axe up certain US guitar lines… when these guitars will have no more than one single US made feature, the price tag. Anyone here knows what happened to the long prospering, once famous US saxophone manufacturers in the 70s? How many are still in business? Ok, forget about the last, as I know some around here will not savvy that there are any other musical instruments than guitars.
Who is interested in Taylor’s more or less self-claimed monopoly for “world ebony”? At least neither the European nor the Asian market believe what they tell to promote their monopoly.
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Orville Gibson and Lloyd Loar were highly respected innovators. Gibson was arespectable company until the end 1960s, when it died slowly, and its culture collapsed with the attempt to revive the brand name in 1986. There are much more persons interested in just maximizing profits from the old Kalamazoo “myth”than actually in making better guitars. The Heritage Company is the self-declared heir apparent of the late Gibson plant; nothing has to be added.
Being affiliated with a guitar company isn’t bad in itself, it can be great; somehere do it in a very decent way. But do you think it reflects reasonable integrity of certain persons when representatives like a mantra spread their gushing praise about the oh-so-good quality of these instruments in a public forum? Being aware that many old Kalamazoo made guitars have a good reputation,all they have to do is to keep on stirring the same old soup and working towards a simple image transfer. Their obvious conflict of interest is ignored by themselves.
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Meanwhile it is common practice of low-and-no-ethics global players to plant informersand lobbyists in web forums and social networks; just a newer form of “marketing”. I am definitely not the only person who believes this could well be the case in this forum too. These persons fear any objective (I mean objective) and in-depth discussion about high quality guitars. Also, typically, they tend to lay their own “sanctimony” at the door of someone else. Their corresponding avoidance reactions are clearly visible. It all comes down to preserving the “myth” by all means - and going on making more money through the gullibility of less experienced readers.
A typical“conversation” could go like this: “Gibson Citation guitars? Well, they are the best in the world. I just called an old Gibson builder. He don’t remember the design, building standards and specifications exactly, but they definitely made the best guitars ever. They are still making the best guitars today, like the Gibson CEO told me personally. Period… Ebony? Gibson has always been using the best fret board woods, all legally taken; better, than any violin builder could choose. The latter are jerks and make just a handful of instruments per year; we are making thousands, so we do have much more experience… “
There is a second forum group, what I call the blind Gibson devotees. They would be ok, if not their blind love would drag the Gibson name even more through the dirt in the long term. They are the stirrup holders of the above mentioned first group, the profiteers and lobbyists.
A third group, the open-minded Gibson aficionados can rarely be heard around here, for some good reason. Most of them are just playing their old Gibsons, never contributing to this friendly forum.Last edited by Ol' Fret; 10-27-2012 at 11:49 AM.
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Unfortunately, the sound and the feel of a particular guitar is only one small moment in time over the lifetime of said particular guitar. What that guitar or rather how that wood behaves at another point in time is directly related to how the instrument was built, what materials the luthier used, the quality of the materials and the preparation of the materials. The sound and the feel comes into play only after all of the significant factors have been taken into account. In other words, I've seen 70 year old guitars that look and work like 3 year old guitars and 3 year old guitars that look and work like 70 year old guitars.
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So, go on, folks! Keep on calling my words harsh sounding European directness or “sanctimony”or “a**-hat”-ness! The alert global readers may finally get an idea themselves of what’s going on here. (Btw. PTC, I tried hard to find something like an a**-hat in the part of the world where I am living - without success! The general consensus is that it must be a special design suitable for a few Western faces only; mostly for those distinguishing themselves by the frequent use of four-letter words).
We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. The reactions of some members, their manifestations of buffoonery, their kind words prove that I’ve been hitting their bullsh.. - oh, sorry, I meant: the bullseye!
Some companies’ acting, and some postings here around “have come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell.”
Benedetto’s (and many other luthiers’) statement is spot-on - as was H.L. Mencken in analyzing the mental state of some of his compatriots.
See you, my dear friends! You’re not completely lost – still realizing if someone is holding a mirror to your face. That’s exactly what I do now and then.
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Hey, a genuine classic troll, which is a five-letter word. I guess ass-hat is either a six-letter word or two three-letter words.
As to the wood discussion, in my opinion one does best to get away from the idea that seasoning wood is to dry it out.
Sure the wood is wet when first felled. But when cut into boards and stacked to dry, it takes months at most (and often FAR less) to reach ambient moisture levels.
Wood is, for the most part, a matrix of fibers and resin - both of which react to moisture.
The resins hold the fibers more or less in place. But through heat, moisture, CYCLES of heat and/or moisture, or constant deforming loads, the resins will yield and allow the fibers to move relative to each other.
There are also other factors. Two significant ones are air within the matrix, and changes over time to the resins.
Anyway, "seasoning" wood provides more benefit that simply drying the wood. More or less:
- Drying the wood from the very high moisture content of a growing tree.
- Allowing the wood to shrink (less moisture and air) while under limited load.
- Relieving internal tension (and compression) in the wood as it cycles through ambient conditions of heat and moisture. (20 years of which does seem somewhat odd in its duration and its precision as a specification.)
- After that it comes down to more application-specific benefits rather than broadly conceptual ones.
As mentioned, after goofing with wood for quite a while you can indeed tell quite a bit by looking at a board, tapping it, sniffing (no, really), and even licking it.
OK, the licking is not for tasting it, but for checking the grain runout which is easier to see when the surface is slightly wet. I think most sane people are above licking wood. I am not.
Last bit of gas-baggery (a ten-letter or three and seven letter word):
Wood is not alive. It not even alive in the tree. The cambium layer under the bark is alive, the wood is dead.
I cut down a very old elm in my back yard this summer - about a meter (a bit more than a yard - a five-letter word) in diameter. The wood was not moist, it was soaking wet. I mean gallons (roughly four litres) of water fell out the end grain of each 10 foot (about 3 meters) section.
This wood will change a great deal as it dries and "seasons". But it is still dead, and has been for years.
All in my opinion.
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher; 10-27-2012 at 12:39 PM.
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WOW!! The last time I heard such a long winded, incorrect, self serving and repugnant diatribe by someone from the wonderful country of Germany . . . it was being spewed from the mouth of a little man. Little in many ways. A dictator with a silly hair cut and an all to short mustache. Only difference here is . . . that mindless little man was talking to thousands and thousands of equally mindless little people who actually bought in to what he had to say. Not so here on this great forum. And, why do you keep showing up here if you consider us all to be below your level of knowledge and righteousness?
Are you so little that you can not even mention me by actual name . . . and need to refer to me as "a representative of a company from K'zoo"? And, should we all just drop to our knees and genuflect to your own self proclaimed position of superior knowledge? Or should we just extend our arm and shout sieg heil everytime you post your bull shit here?
Get a grip Ol' fret . . . or I'll need to rename you Ol' fart!!! You're all full of yourself and you probably ain't even as good as you think you are.Last edited by Patrick2; 10-27-2012 at 03:12 PM.
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Well this has become a curious thread. I don't understand why everyone is getting hot under the collar about it. Ol' Fret, I'm not even sure I know what you are arguing for or against. Anyway Fumblefingers asked a legitimate question about the quality and seasoning of ebony. The answer is simply that the same quality of ebony can be used on a guitar as a cello and that it doesn't need to be seasoned for 20 years to be "master-grade" (not that "master-grade" means anything anyway). The quotes attributed to Bob seem uncharacteristic of him. The times I've talked to Bob about stuff like this he basically tows the line that you buy the best lumber you can to try and maximize your success but that ultimately it's the maker that makes the difference and not the wood. As far as seasoning goes, you basically want the board to move all it's going to before you mill it so that it doesn't move all over the place after you mill it.
Last edited by jasonc; 10-27-2012 at 01:20 PM. Reason: spelling
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LOLOLOL . . . I always admire the humor you interject in your posts, rather than becoming angered by a stupid post, or in this case several of them . . . . . . (the way I foolishly allowed myself to become). I wonder if I should try to learn how to do that.?.? Naahhhh . . . . If I did, I wouldn't be me. That would really suck.Wood is not alive. It not even alive in the tree. The cambium layer under the bark is alive, the wood is dead.
I cut down a very old elm in my back yard this summer - about a meter (a bit more than a yard - a five-letter word) in diameter. The wood was not moist, it was soaking wet. I mean gallons (roughly four litres) of water fell out the end grain of each 10 foot (about 3 meters) section.
This wood will change a great deal as it dries and "seasons". But it is still dead, and has been for years.
But, regarding the Ronaldo quote about the wood being "still alive" . . . of course it was just a metaphor. He still uses it to this day . . . and so do I.
By the way, what exactly is an ass hat?? I'm pretty sure you used it appropriately in this thread, even if based upon nothing more that its implied conotation. But, I've never heard it used before.?.?
Lastly . . . I STRONGLY disaggree with you on getting away from the term "seasoned wood". I do a roast fillet of salmon on a "seasoned" plank of cedar. I soak the cedar plank in water from morning 'til dinner time so it won't ignite and burn when I put it on my grill . . . then, I season it with granular garlic, salt and pepper . . . put the salmon on it and season the salmon. Then, when it's almost done . . . I apply a thin coating of honey and allow it to caramelize. After that. all that's left to do is pop the cork on a nice Pinot Noir. Yeah . . . I'm all for seasoned wood!!!!!Last edited by Patrick2; 10-28-2012 at 09:42 PM.
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>>> such a long winded, incorrect, self serving and repugnant diatribe by someone
Hey, I know I can go on and on, but was it that bad? (Har-har.)
[Jason]>>> As far as seasoning goes, you basically want the board to move all it's going to before you mill it so that it doesn't move all over the place after you mill it.
Oh man. I write 250 words that don't quite do the job, then you cover it all in 40 (or something). Where were you when my kids were teens? I could have used your consult on wording.
>>> what exactly is an ass hat?
I have no idea. I am sure I did not make it up, but it just sounded right in the context of the situation.
>>> I STRONGLY disaggree with you on getting away from the term "seasoned wood".
Hee-hee. I am all for the term "seasoned" in all uses of the word.
The actual problem comes if one thinks seasoning wood is to dry it out, which can lead to a few ass-hat assumptions.
And what do you think of the Bressan Pino Nero?
Chris
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Chris[/quote]
I trust that you know that wasn't aimed at you.?.? Originally Posted by PTChristopher
I thought the same exact thing when I read Jason's post. I also agree with his comments about Bob Benedetto. That's why I suggested that he might have been misquoted.[Jason]>>> As far as seasoning goes, you basically want the board to move all it's going to before you mill it so that it doesn't move all over the place after you mill it.
Oh man. I write 250 words that don't quite do the job, then you cover it all in 40 (or something). Where were you when my kids were teens? I could have used your consult on wording.
I was assuming it was just a less vulgar was of referring to someone as an ass-hole . . . which would also sound right in the context of the situation.>>> what exactly is an ass hat?
I have no idea. I am sure I did not make it up, but it just sounded right in the context of the situation.
I'll let you know . . . just as soon as I can locate a bottle of it here in New Jersey and taste it.And what do you think of the Bressan Pino Nero?
Chris
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Originally Posted by Patrick2
Is that what an ass-clown wears on his head?
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Which, of course, would beg the question . . . "what's an ass-clown" Originally Posted by Bluedawg
Is that what an ass-clown wears on his head?
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