Archtop setup question 2 - for you experts out there

**PTChristopher** · 10-04-2012, 04:45 PM

>>> tolerances down to 1/16" . . and I guess for accuracy of spot on intonation we need to

I would distinguish between intonation and bridge compensation, but that is just me.

Anyway, indeed 1/16" is quite a bit when talking bridge compensation.

>>> that sometimes you will find a bridge base and it's posts leaning ever so slightly

This is evil. It is just diet soda and bad American TV evil if the exposed post length is fairly short - like 3/16" or less.

But many guitars have quite a bit more post exposed. In that case, a tilt and a fairly significant break angle (say 12 deg. or more) is end-of-days evil and needs to be taken care of.

As the Patmeister points out, the fix is in the bridge base. A new base is often the better way to go, but if the existing base is meaty enough, then it can be re-shaped.

Don't bend the posts to make a tilted base work. And don't straightened bent posts - get new posts; they are cheap.

All in my opinion.

Chris

**Patrick2** · 10-04-2012, 07:12 PM

[quote=PTChristopher;259712]>>> tolerances down to 1/16" . . and I guess for accuracy of spot on intonation we need to

I would distinguish between intonation and bridge compensation, but that is just me.

OK Chris . . . this is another teachable moment for me. I see bridge compensation AS intonation . . or an attempt at contributing to proper intonation. Help me understand the *distinguish* part of you post.

And also . . . how the hell do you get your <<< characters to go in the other direction?? I've got these . . . <<< . . . and I've got these . . ^^^ . . . . . but, somebody made my key board incorrectly and I don't have any of the ones you use.?.? This makes me very unhappy!!!

**fumblefingers** · 10-04-2012, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by oldane

You can't put that squarely. It also depends on the string action. As the action gets progressively higher, the string wil stretch more (same way as when you bend a not). With a high action, the bridge wil have to be set a little closer to the taipiece than with a low action. So this practice of positioning the bridge by means of measuring with a ruler can only bring you approximately into the ballpark.

For my part, I have never positioned archtop bridges by measuring. I have always done it by ear or with a tuner. I avoid setting the intonation using the open strings. If the nut is a little higher than the first frets (which is common, just ask Chris) the string will stretch a little to bring it down to the frets which will raise the pitch a tiny bit. I use to compare the intonation on say the 3rd and the 15th fret ot the 5th or the 17th fret. Ideally they should be an octave apart. That way, I don't use a reference - the open string - I never use. I do it under real life conditions - taking into account that I never play with open strings and taking into account which part of the fretboard I use most when playing.

In real life, it's almost never possible to get totally perfect intonation. The intonation seems to change during the life of the strings set and somtimes also from week to week. Don't ask me why. But I think that we will have to be satisfied if we can bring the incosistancies below the size of the small imperfections which is built into the tempered scale (no interval is perfectly pure except octaves and 5ths).

a fair point, i didnt give the assumptions.

For Benedetto that would be a flat fingerboard (in terms of relief, or should i say no relief) and low action (5/64 and 3/64 respectively on the 6th and 1rst strings at the 12th fret)

**PTChristopher** · 10-04-2012, 09:35 PM

>>> another teachable moment for me.

I will gladly give my view, but certainly there are other angles to all of this.

>>> I see bridge compensation AS intonation . . or an attempt at contributing to proper intonation. Help me understand the *distinguish* part of you post.

Assuming your frets are positioned correctly (and this is almost always the case), AND your nut is not too high, bridge compensation is by far the biggest and most effective part of adjusting intonation.

But there are things you can do at the nut that can make a very noticeable difference for some players.

I sneak the nut forward (toward the first fret) about .5mm (one half millimeter). This is a fairly ham-fisted adjustment, but it does improve low position intonation (and a long story as to why).

Then there is more sophisticated nut compensation, which is always forward toward the first fret. Each string will have a slightly different ideal compensation.

But, all in all, nut compensation is far less critical vs. bridge compensation (especially if your nut is not too high - sorry to repeat so much, but it is true).

(The Buzz Feiten system is more complex and also not above reproach, but many are satisfied with the results.)

Neck relief can also be an intonation issue - again far less important than bridge compensation. Excessive relief screws up the proportional progression of fretting stretch as you play up the FB, and this makes bridge compensation much more of a compromise.

>>> And also . . . how the hell do you get your <<< characters to go in the other direction??

I hold the computer upside down and type the "<".

But on my computer there is also a key two positions to the right of the "m" has this symbol ">" in the upper case.

I just find it faster to type >>> and cut-n-paste vs. the whole quote procedure.

Anyway, back to intonation:

Yes, bridge compensation is all that is needed for most people in most cases. But there are cases where you need to go to the nut and relief as well.

Very high frets, somewhat light strings, and a strong left hand technique can all make some nut work worthwhile.

In my opinion.

Chris

**Patrick2** · 10-04-2012, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

>>> tolerances down to 1/16" . . and I guess for accuracy of spot on intonation we need to

I would distinguish between intonation and bridge compensation, but that is just me.

Anyway, indeed 1/16" is quite a bit when talking bridge compensation.

>>> that sometimes you will find a bridge base and it's posts leaning ever so slightly

This is evil. It is just diet soda and bad American TV evil if the exposed post length is fairly short - like 3/16" or less.

But many guitars have quite a bit more post exposed. In that case, a tilt and a fairly significant break angle (say 12 deg. or more) is end-of-days evil and needs to be taken care of.

As the Patmeister points out, the fix is in the bridge base. A new base is often the better way to go, but if the existing base is meaty enough, then it can be re-shaped.

Don't bend the posts to make a tilted base work. And don't straightened bent posts - get new posts; they are cheap.

All in my opinion.

Chris

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

>>> another teachable moment for me.

I will gladly give my view, but certainly there are other angles to all of this.

>>> I see bridge compensation AS intonation . . or an attempt at contributing to proper intonation. Help me understand the *distinguish* part of you post.

Assuming your frets are positioned correctly (and this is almost always the case), AND your nut is not too high, bridge compensation is by far the biggest and most effective part of adjusting intonation.

But there are things you can do at the nut that can make a very noticeable difference for some players.

I sneak the nut forward (toward the first fret) about .5mm (one half millimeter). This is a fairly ham-fisted adjustment, but it does improve low position intonation (and a long story as to why).

Then there is more sophisticated nut compensation, which is always forward toward the first fret. Each string will have a slightly different ideal compensation.

But, all in all, nut compensation is far less critical vs. bridge compensation (especially if your nut is not too high - sorry to repeat so much, but it is true).

(The Buzz Feiten system is more complex and also not above reproach, but many are satisfied with the results.)

Neck relief can also be an intonation issue - again far less important than bridge compensation. Excessive relief screws up the proportional progression of fretting stretch as you play up the FB, and this makes bridge compensation much more of a compromise.

>>> And also . . . how the hell do you get your <<< characters to go in the other direction??

I hold the computer upside down and type the "<".

But on my computer there is also a key two positions to the right of the "m" has this symbol ">" in the upper case.

I just find it faster to type >>> and cut-n-paste vs. the whole quote procedure.

Anyway, back to intonation:

Yes, bridge compensation is all that is needed for most people in most cases. But there are cases where you need to go to the nut and relief as well.

Very high frets, somewhat light strings, and a strong left hand technique can all make some nut work worthwhile.

In my opinion.

Chris

Chris . . . "that is a lucid, intellegent, well thought out explanation (objection)". (Judge Chamberlain Holler . . aka Fred Gwynn in My Cousin Vinnie)

Also, the line about holding the computer upside down made me laugh so hard I cried!! This is even funnier though . . the key that you pointed out as two keys to the right of the m key . . >>>> . . doesn't have the marking above the . . . . and that's why I didn't find it. I think I wore it of by posting so many . . . . . . . . . . . . . . as a breathing interval between phrases within sentences . . . in stead of using a comma, as I'm supposed to, that I wore the damn icon off of the key. If you didn't tell me where it was . . . I'd have never found it, or even known it was there. LOLOLOLOL

**edh** · 10-05-2012, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

These are pretty cool too.

Patrick, what are these called, or where can I order one?

**edh** · 10-05-2012, 01:12 AM

>>> And also . . . how the hell do you get your <<< characters to go in the other direction??

I hold the computer upside down and type the "<".

PTChritopher, that's to damn funny. I spewed coffee all over my screen. ROTFLMAO

**Patrick2** · 10-05-2012, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by edh

Patrick, what are these called, or where can I order one?

I don't think they're called anything special .. . just a TOM bridge with ebony saddle inserts instead of metal or nylon ones. I'm pretty hard pressed to understand how they could make a tonal difference, in that the string oscellation .. or more appropriately the vibrations caused by it, has to pass through a metal bridge anyway.?.? But, I'd certainly be curious to hear one switched on and off with an all ebony bridge base and saddle on the same guitar. Remember, Wes preferred the nylon saddle inserts in his TOM.

They can be found here . . . www.ultimaguitar.com