The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    My Gretsch 5120 feels pretty stiff with anything more than 11s on it. I use John Pearse silk 12s on my flat top Eastman. They are a softer set than usual 12s - they give more than any 12s I have put on my Gretsch. Including Thomastik 12 flat swings and Newtone archtop 12s... I cant get any pop out of em. Strange...

    The cheap Gretsch is really thick wood so nothing really gets it moving. With pickups, I guess theres not much point to using big strings, to an extent...

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  3. #2

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    Are the scale the same in both guitars?

  4. #3
    The gretsch is actually shorter at 24.5 and the Eastman at 24.9"

  5. #4

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    Gotta be scale length

  6. #5

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    Longer scale lengths definitely have a tighter string feel to them, but the break angle is also really important. You can adjust the break angle on 335s by adjusting those two big screws on the tailpiece, the higher the tailpiece the floppier the string feel gets. D'Aquisto also did this, some of the Fender D'Aquistos have a height adjustable tailpiece on them, it's a really simple design, I wish more archtops had the option to do it. It could be easily done by most manufacturers for most existing tailpiece designs except for those violin type ones like Benedettos.
    I found an article that talks about break angles in detail:

    Guitar strings tension

  7. #6

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    If the nut is too high, the action will feel stiffer, especiallially in the lower positions. Many guitars - also many new guitars from well reputed makers - suffer from this. Chris (PTChristopher) has written a lot about this regularly.

  8. #7

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    maybe the strings like one guitar better then the other if ya know what i mean... lol

  9. #8

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    >>> the higher the tailpiece the floppier the string feel gets

    I understand that this is a common opinion. The remotely arguable principle would be that the break angle can affect friction on the saddle. It is a longish story and beyond the scope of a web post.

    In practice the break angle will have no effect on perceived string tension. This is easy to test with a very simple spring scale.

    The linked Frudua article is an interesting study. The principle of non-vibrating string length and perceived tension is true and easy to measure. I do not see why he skips measuring anything. A few measurements would have brought some of his well described principles into perspective.

    I think some measurements would also have discouraged the description of attack and even perceived tension being affected by break angle in any practical way.

    To the OP: It is very hard to speculate on why you feel one guitar is stiffer than another. Oldane mentions a classic reason regarding the nut. But having the guitar and player in the room make such problems much faster and easier to attack.

    Chris

  10. #9

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    It is only scale length if the strings are locked at the nuts and saddle.

  11. #10

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    As 3625 says, scale length is only one factor. I've found break angle off the bridge and length of string behind the bridge can make a much bigger difference. Especially the break angle.
    MD

  12. #11

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    Silk .012's on the Eastman? Those are low tension strings, of course the Gretsch feels stiffer.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by mad dog
    As 3625 says, scale length is only one factor. I've found break angle off the bridge and length of string behind the bridge can make a much bigger difference. Especially the break angle.
    MD
    Don't forget inconsistency in string manufacturers string runs. I quit using one brand because of it and their Customer Service always said there were send a replacements and only once did. Most don't realize there are only a few companies that actually make strings and they all make strings that others put in there own packaging. Sometimes they make strings to the other companies spec's for them and others time it same strings in different package.

  14. #13

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    It is one funny world out there (which is I guess, "here") in public forum guitardom.

  15. #14

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    A correctly cut nut is probably the most important factor in getting a guitar to feel less stiff, but the thickness of the neck itself contributes to the perceived stiffness and tension. With a thinner neck, the player's hand is in a more closed position meaning that higher action won't result in a uncomfortably open hand position. Thick necks position the player's hand in a more open position which reduces the amount of force that the hand's muscles can produce. As a result, the same action on a thicker neck will feel stiffer than on a thinner one.

    Disclaimer: I am not a scientist, and the aforementioned theory is a poorly written elaboration based on personal experience.

  16. #15
    Yea there must be some other stuff goin on thats percieved so to speak. Thanks for all the info, folks...

    I really am not sure how you guys play regular tension 12s... my arm starts burnin, de quarvains kicks in... wish I could do it though...

    Allot of the stiffness I feel with my picking hand. Its like Im out of my comfort range with allot of the regular 12 sets. I just cant get those strings moving sometimes....

  17. #16

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    Nut height, relief, action, fret shape (height/width) all influence playability.

    What happens to the non-sounding parts of the string (break angle over the nut or saddle, distance to anchor points at bridge/tuner) affect string stiffness, not tension.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by achase4u
    I really am not sure how you guys play regular tension 12s... my arm starts burnin, de quarvains kicks in... wish I could do it though...
    Years of playing acoustic guitars with 12s or thicker. Focusing on keeping my hands relaxed so I don't hurt myself. Keeping my instrument setup such that I'm not fighting to play them.

  19. #18

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    Nice distinction between stiffness and tension.

  20. #19

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    It's an habit. I use 014 these days so... My picking does not like 011 gauges. And I use action as low as possible. On acoustics 11 is fine for whatever reason.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by achase4u
    Yea there must be some other stuff goin on thats percieved so to speak.
    Break angle.

    The angle at which the strings leave the bridge or nut. The steeper the angle the higher the tension.

  22. #21
    "
    What happens to the non-sounding parts of the string (break angle over the nut or saddle, distance to anchor points at bridge/tuner) affect string stiffness, not tension."


    Interesting - Im not sure I understand this though...

    The guitar has allot of break angle to the front and back of it...

    I started out on acoustic with 12s moons ago but I just couldnt ever seem to get to the point where I could play them comfortably... guess that may just be my fault. Cant figure that one...

    I do have the nut adjusted so that should be ok... I wonder what else... I remember Dan Erlewine thought that more relief meant stiffer near the first fret and looser toward the middle in feel...

  23. #22

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    >>> Break angle. The angle at which the strings leave the bridge or nut. The steeper the angle the higher the tension.

    With all due respect this is simply not true at all. It is an enduring myth that seems resistant to all the sense, simple physics, even simpler measurement, and extremely patient attempts to clarify what is (and mostly what is not) happening.

    Somewhat incredible that it persists.
    Last edited by PTChristopher; 09-08-2012 at 03:07 PM.

  24. #23

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    Gents,

    It seems a waste of your time for someone (me in this case) to say the same thing over and over. Must be almost as tiresome to read it as it is getting to write it.

    If it makes business sense at some point to start a blog on the subject, that would be a better avenue I think - vs. responding to the same things over and over, to no apparent end.

    Anyway - thanks for patiently (hah, with a couple of exceptions) passing through the same "It does not work that way, for #u(&'s sake." posts.

    Time to drop it; it does not really matter. Onward and sideward.

    Chris
    Last edited by PTChristopher; 09-08-2012 at 03:15 PM.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by PTChristopher
    >>> Break angle. The angle at which the strings leave the bridge or nut. The steeper the angle the higher the tension.

    With all due respect this is simply not true at all. It is an enduring myth that seems resistant to all the sense, simple physics, even simpler measurement, and extremely patient attempts to clarify what is (and mostly what is not) happening.

    Somewhat incredible that it persists.
    No need to get upset, perhaps I should have used the words feel and not tension

    I just googled for an image and found this. Which may go some way to explain what I FEEL and you KNOW.

  26. #25

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    Not upset SMP - definitely carry on as you see fit with no need to respond to my views at all.

    If the linked web article (no peer review, etc.) included any measured data whatsoever, we would be able to discuss what could one possibly be actually feeling (appreciate your distinction here) in practical use of the guitar.

    As it is, if the article and your views work for you and others, and that makes you want to make great music on your guitar, then the details (even the made-up ones) are of no consequence.

    Many thanks for the response, but I'd do best to drop any comment on the material aspects of this at this point.

    Thanks again.

    Chris