The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Okay all you techno savvy wizards who possess the knowledge of how to best amplify a flattop acoustic. I've an arched back flattop cutaway that sings so much she almost sounds plugged in. But she's not.

    What steps do I need to take to amplify her that will allow me the option of plugging into an amp?

    And secondly, what string options must one pursue beyond the typical bronze flattop strings to cut down on the string noise?

    I've heard rumor of a CC pickup designed for flattops. Anyone familiar with it?

    Charlie Christian Repro - Seymour Duncan Specialized

    Anyway, there she is, awaiting your expertise to convert her to a full blown jazz guitar. Thanks in advance.


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  3. #2

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    I'd say, check out Pete Biltoft's Vintage Vibe guitar pickups.

    Vintage Vibe Guitars

    I talked to Pete a while back about using a CCRider pickup on an acoustic guitar and he said he could fabricate a custom mount for a roundhole for around $150. or so. I have an Alvarez Yairi I love the neck on and a solidbody with the CCRider which I love the tone of. Ended up sticking with the soldbody electric but if I was looking for a good electric tone from an archtop Pete Biltoft would be the first one I'd talk to. And that's one of Pete's strongest points - he won't build a pickup/mount until he's dead sure it's what and how you want.

    And another point - Pete offered to wind me a CC type pickup with 38 gauge wire, which he said contributes to the Charlie Christian sound a lot, for no extra charge. That's customer service!
    Last edited by robertm2000; 07-22-2012 at 05:57 AM.

  4. #3

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    I have only used 42 ga. and 44 ga. wire, but it makes sense to me that a CC with fatter 38 ga. wire would very noticeably change the sound of the coil.

    42 ga. is fairly common in PU's and is specified at .0025" diameter.

    38 ga. is a MUCH larger .004" diameter.

    If you consider cross section area, then the difference is huge.

    Chris

  5. #4

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  6. #5
    If you're going for natural acoustic sound, I'm very fond of the k&k line. They're not too expensive and aren't too difficult to install, and they sound great.

  7. #6

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    Agreed. The K&K Pure Western gets very high marks. My Baggs recommendation was made because of the jazz orientation of the OP's interests.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by PTChristopher
    I have only used 42 ga. and 44 ga. wire, but it makes sense to me that a CC with fatter 38 ga. wire would very noticeably change the sound of the coil.

    42 ga. is fairly common in PU's and is specified at .0025" diameter.

    38 ga. is a MUCH larger .004" diameter.

    If you consider cross section area, then the difference is huge.

    Chris
    Thank you for the explanation. I can see how that measurement would make such a difference in sound. It would seem that the 38 gauge wire would be a HUGE difference from 42 gauge, and more than I thought - I'm going to order a 38 gauge CCRider from Pete Biltoft based on that info.

  9. #8
    Thanks to all, that's a good start. Let me better articulate why I'm considering this project.

    Say for instance you've had your share of decent traditional archtop hollow body electrics, i.e., jazz guitars.

    And yet, in all that time you've only had one guitar out of the entire lot of them that had a pickup, floater or mounted, that did anything for you. As fate would have it I sold that guitar, a '77 Ibanez 2460 with Super 70's, because I thought I'd be better off keeping a carved top Heritage SE, rather than a knock off with a laminated top. I couldn't afford to keep both, and a buyer stepped up for the 2460 first, so out it went.

    So I'm sitting around with several guitars at the moment, the SE with a pair of mounted Schaller pups, a D'A Excel-1DP with its stock korean KA floater I presume, and the Eastman pictured above.

    The Eastman is the best sounding guitar I've ever owned. It was a very limited production model, AJ817 jumbo arched back flattop acoustic with carved spruce top, maple sides and back, ebony appointments all around.

    Perhaps I'm more fond of this acoustic for the same reasons, being a 4 decade old audiophile, I've leaned towards the natural acoustic tone of tube amps over solid state amplfication. However, the other day I got a wild hair idea staring at the acoustic where a question arose:

    What if one could take an acoustic and amplify it to steer its tonal properties towards a L5, or more specifically, a 'Wes' jazz guitar tone?

    Am I barking up the wrong tree because no matter how I were to amplify an acoustic it will still project the acoustic tone natural to its nature?

    It's not a CC tone I'm after. I only eluded to that CC pickup because it's the only jazz oriented pickup for a flattop guitar I've seen.

    It's a fat Wes tone I'm after. And if one can't create that tone by amplifying an acoustic, how close can one get?

    My creative side somehow thinks I'm not the first to pose this question of a guitar, so in the spirit of 'its not necessary to reinvent the wheel' I pose the question.

    Roger is the only person on the board I'm aware of whose owned his share of older acoustic archtops, and I can't recall if any of his YT vids were anything other than non-amplified archtop acoustics.

    I've only arrived at this point of considering this project because I've not owned a single floater that was anything other than blahhh. And before throwing more money at jazz archtops, now that the SE is on the sell block rather than experimenting with an infinite number of pups in quest of one that I like , I thought I'd first examine amplifying the one guitar that I own that's a pure gem, acoustically.

    I hope that sheds deeper light on what I'm attempting to accomplish.

    Thanks again for the consideration and assist.

    2b
    Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 07-22-2012 at 01:01 PM.

  10. #9

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    - K&K requires modifying your guitar by gluing a plate under the bridge. I'm not willing to do this on anything but a beater. YMMV.

    - I like Sunrise pickups with the associated preamp. They are heavy, expensive, and imperfect but I bought a couple 20 yrs ago and haven't heard anything I like all that much better.

    - Anything piezo'ish is, IMHO, awful.

    - Ken Parker uses a Fishman on his very expensive acoustic archtops
    Ken Parker Archtops Info Pickups This seems a low risk approach with a reasonable chance of a good outcome.

    - If you're going to install the endpin yourself you might want to make sure you have the right reamer (not drill)

    - Strings: There is no magic bullet. Amplification methods that rely on the vibration of the saddle have their issues (either sound bad or require mods to guitar). Magnetic pickups have the same problems they do in archtops made worse by the use of acoustic strings. They only see the core on phosphor bronze strings so string balance is difficult. If you use nickel, your tone suffers. DR makes 'zebra' strings wrapped in both materials and I've just started playing with those so no report yet. On my floater archtop the TI round wounds sound pretty 'zingy' acoustic but quite good for an acoustic tone when amplified so those may be worth screwing around with.

    - Microphones/blenders/DI boxes: good future topic

    - Finally, after seeing your post above, just my opinion, but none of this gets you to a fat Wes tone. This gear is made to get you as close as possible to the sound of the acoustic guitar. This is different from the fundamental midrange punch Wes tone. I get this. For a long time I was in the camp of good flat tops sound great, good archtops sound like cardboard and I don't get it. What I've found is that with the right strings, pups, amplification, and construction, archtops do Wes tone and a whole lot more. That's just been my experience so far but I sure do relate to your comments on flat top vs. archtop.
    Last edited by Spook410; 07-22-2012 at 01:35 PM.

  11. #10

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    In my opinion and some experience, you will not be able to make your Eastman archback sound like an L-5 no matter what. And in attempting to do so, you are liable to spoil some of the character that makes you enjoy that guitar so much. So... Amplify it in a way to bring out its true qualities, and save for an L-5. It's just so much more satisfying to have the real thing. You'll spend all your time playing and admiring your guitar instead of concocting projects.

    The M1 is great as a flattop pickup because it is removable, although the required end pin jack is not. But that's par for the course with most of these amplified acoustic deals.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by rpguitar
    In my opinion and some experience, you will not be able to make your Eastman archback sound like an L-5 no matter what. And in attempting to do so, you are liable to spoil some of the character that makes you enjoy that guitar so much. So... Amplify it in a way to bring out its true qualities, and save for an L-5. It's just so much more satisfying to have the real thing. You'll spend all your time playing and admiring your guitar instead of concocting projects.

    The M1 is great as a flattop pickup because it is removable, although the required end pin jack is not. But that's par for the course with most of these amplified acoustic deals.
    That's logic that's jives with my sense of reason and common sense, and a time saver. Well put, that shifted my focus. Thanks Roger!

    Well, I spose it's time to begin a sell of 5 guitars to acquire 1 guitar, rather than to continue lusting after the 1. Thanks to all for their many suggestions!

  13. #12

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    It's a noble pursuit. I sold off 13 (!) guitars about a year ago and don't miss one of them. In fact I often think of how to further refine things, although my desires are far fewer now, and my dispensable inventory is, too.

  14. #13
    My main guitar is a really nice flattop, and when I'm after a clean, jazzy tone, I throw an old dimarzio magnetic pickup in the soundhole and a set of GHS white bronze strings. The end result is very clean and jazzy, in a sense, but more tonally balanced than that dark, classic jazzy sound. I don't claim this to be the best, most authentic sounding solution, but for me, it works fine. Since I'm more interested in my guitar's natural acoustic properties, I only depend on the soundhole pickup is just a "for something different" solution, and i'd recommend it for exactly that.

    If this seems worth your consideration, then look for older soundhole pickups, as older designs tend to sound less acoustic and more magnetic, and some of them sound very nice through a tube amp. It might be a fun experiment that won't cost you much money, and might lend some more flexability to your favorite flattop.

  15. #14

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    I think that"s a misunderstanding,the "Charlie Christian"-PU was never
    intended to amplify an flattop,you have to drill 2 holes off the soundhole
    or be an scotch/gaffa-tape maniac.
    A Stimer/Maccaferri style PU might work,or a Schertler PU placed inside
    the soundhole with a clip.

  16. #15

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    I've got the K&K Pure Mini in a couple flat-tops, and like it a lot. It's a very natural sounding pickup, imho. My D-28 sounds like a steel-string acoustic flat-top, more or less, and that's what I want.

    Sounds like you're looking for something else though. I think you might get closer with something magnetic, like the Baggs M1 or similar.

    But just to clarify a point, I'm not sure it's correct to say you have to glue a plate under the bridge to install the K&K. Rather, my understanding is that you have to glue the three little discs, each about the size of a thick nickel, to the underside of your bridge plate (which is already part of your guitar). Like this:

    How to best electrify an acoustic flattop?-kk_pure_mini_install-jpg
    Last edited by Flat; 12-08-2022 at 07:06 PM.

  17. #16

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    sorry slightly off topic but lighthearted .is that when i saw the question re 'electrifying" a flat top ....... my mind instantly remembered that old quip of

    "How many blue grass players does it take to change a lightbulb ? "

    and the answer is "NONE" cos there's no way you'll ever get a bluegrass player to touch anything "electric"





    sorry now back to the OP

    i use LR baggs i beam systems in all my acoustics and i find it extremely natural , nylon and steel .....

    LR bags also do the dual source pickups but i prefer the ibeam...but i think if natural tone is what you want then LR baggs kinda know how to get it right ...well least to my ears and the i beam in NOT piezo so no quacky tone......

    maybe get a humbucker in soundhole and then add something like an LR baggs and blend them and get the best of both worlds......... and it will enable you to go pure acoustic to pure humbucker tone and everything in between

    i see even artists like martin taylor BUT on his archtop has an acoustic UST and humbucker and blends them for his tone......n
    Last edited by Keira Witherkay; 07-23-2012 at 01:30 PM.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flat
    .

    But just to clarify a point, I'm not sure it's correct to say you have to glue a plate under the bridge to install the K&K.
    Meant to say 'to the' plate. It's 3 sensors. Not sure I'm willing to super glue anything to one of my bridge plates much less 3 things each the size of a nickel. I've seen where some use a stout 2 sided tape (like the 3M stuff). I just finished removing an old install of some minijacks inside a guitar using this stuff. Never did get it all off and this was on the inside taped to the back. Not sure I'm willing to do the tape to a bridge plate either.

    I'm glad you like yours.. many do. We all have different thresholds of what we're comfortable doing to various instruments. Guess I'm in the extra conservative bolt on pickup camp.

  19. #18

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    I agree, Spook....the K&K are definitely not easy to take out, especially without leaving a trace. They are not as flexible as some other options in that regard.

  20. #19

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    I like the Fishman Rare Earth magnetic pickup that mounts in the soundhole.

  21. #20

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    Well Magnetic Soundhole Pickups are the least prone to feedback as they only pick up the vibrations of the strings. To make them really come to life, they recommend using Nickel Wound Strings. I was able to get away w/ using Thomastik Infeld Jazz Swing Extra Light Gauge Nickel Flatwound Acoustic/Electric Guitar Strings. What distinguishes them from other Strings is that the Wound Strings have Colored Silk wound around both ends to protect them so they're designed essentially like Strings for Bowed stringed instruments. They have a slightly lower tension than most Flatwound strings because the Wound Strings also have a layer of Silk between the Core & the Wrap wire, so they're essentially Nickel Flatwound Silk & Steel strings. I don't know any other companies that make Flatwound Silk & Steel Strings but it would be super cool for Vintage & Parlor Guitars cause it'll save the frets from scratches.

  22. #21

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    I've been down this road before... Ended up using a short tripod mic stand and an SM-57. Easiest and best solution really (I know, you said pick-up).

  23. #22
    A nice bump of a 10 year old thread, from the days of my youth.

  24. #23

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    Tech has changed a bit in 10 years. You can now get electronics that will 'listen' to a mic version of your guitar and a piezo (or other full range.. not mag) pickup and make the piezo sound pretty close to the mic via signal processing.