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I sometime moonlight as a sound guy, and let me tell you, in most settings, your $5k archtop isn't going to sound appreciably different than an Eastman or Sadowsky JH. Besides, no one but us around here care.
People want to know if you can play their favorite tunes. Don't need a $50k D'Angelico for that, and yes I have played 3-4 D'A's built by John, a $50k Manzer, and wonderful archtops by Benedetto, Campellone, Anderson, Triggs, D'Aquisto, Hopkins, Mirabella, Ribbecke, Pagelli, et al.
Thing is, John Pizzarelli ain't taking his Benedetto on the road anymore, it's his laminate Moll. Same with the rest. With sound reinforcement and travel, laminates just hold up better and sound considerably better than a plank. If you are hanging out at home and you want the sound of angels singing and have the stroke, fine, buy an archtop from a boutique builder.
I've owned and or played and interviewed all the above builders for podcasting, except the dead guys, and can sniff corks with the best. However, I play a Forshage Ergo when gigging. Basically an improved semihollow Klein with Benedetto pups. The nicer stuff always stays at home.
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07-05-2012 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by derek
Anyway there are guys that tour with with solid expensive archtops as I mentioned above.
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Originally Posted by derek
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Picks not only affect the sound, but also the feel.
If the difference in sound that I perceive is psychosomatic, then so be it. I "hear" the difference, and it makes me happy
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You'd have to be a magician to IDENTIFY a pick by it's sound.
But if you can't hear a difference between a fender medium and a dugain against the strings on your guitar, you ain't hearing too good.
Guitar playerd love their absolutes...lots of them in this thread...leading to contention...
I can't tell you any pick is "better" than another...that's a personal preference. But if you can't hear a difference, it dorsn't mean there isn't one.
Btw, I agree, blue chip=snake oil.
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Again it's a matter of balance. Between 1) they're all the same 2) pick X will save your guitar there's A LOT in between.
In my humble experience a pick can change your tone a lot.. it's not as decisive as guitar / pickup / amp / speaker choice but it's number 5 probably.
EDIT: Number 5 would be picks and strings ex aequoLast edited by jorgemg1984; 07-06-2012 at 08:27 AM.
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Basically, it's this... If you can appreciate the difference, then something is worth the money. If you can't, it isn't. No matter how you try to qualify or quantify this stuff, when dealing with something that goes beyond physics, and is completely subjective, there is no clear cut science or logic - just opinion.
A brand is developed when those opinions start to line up and certain builders establish themselves as more likely to provide an instrument that subjectively aligns itself with more than a few folks.
So, i will play the guitars that speak to me, regardless of brand. If they cost $10 or $30,000, it doesn't matter as long as it speaks to me.
Bob
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for sure practising is time better spent!
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I think the amp is so important too. I get a great acoustic archtop sound out of my Sadowsky through the Quilter 8 or Genzler or Bud. A full range amp makes a huge difference. Might sell my carved Eastman, haven't used it in months.
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I have struggled with this issue for years, and I often turn to bass players for answers. You can listen to the whole thing here, but especially listen to this guy starting on the 2nd song at around half time through the vid 3:00. Who's gonna care if he's using an upright carved bass or not. I'd give a kidney to play jazz with them. And if you can catch it, see the drummers incredible stick flipping technique at around 5:40. It happens so fast it's hard to catch.
Last edited by Woody Sound; 12-02-2021 at 10:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by uburoibob
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The player is still the critical factor.
Guitars don’t play themselves.
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Originally Posted by rictroll
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I am too lazy to go back through nine years worth of posts. So maybe this has already been addressed: whether something is "worth the money" depends on what it's being compared to. Is a Mercedes "worth the money" compared to a Lada? If you want a reliable, durable car that you can own for 25 years, the answer may be yes.
Is a Gibson L5 worth the money compared to a Harmony archtop from the 1940s? If you are going to be playing professionally, pretty sure the answer is yes. If you're gonna play the three songs you know sitting on your front porch on Saturday evening, the answer may be no. Or, if you can afford the L5, maybe the answer is yes then too.
Everyone probably has a point of diminishing returns that they can identify. I read a lot of NGD's on this forum showcasing wonderous guitars by the like of Campallone, Buscarino, etc. While I can appreciate them, I will probably never pry my wallet open wide enough to pay that much money for a guitar. I have my archtop made by Matt Cushman which plays and sounds fantastic to my ears and has satisfied my urge to buy any further archtops. I have probably reached the point of diminishing returns at that particular instrument.
On top of that, I find that in general archtop guitars that sound better acoustically tend to sound not as well amplified via a pickup and vice versa. For the amplified archtop sound, I have my Ibanez GB10 which has kept me from buying another laminated archtop guitar since 1986. I think the point of diminishing returns has been reached there as well, because I am probably not going to sound any better than another laminated instrument.
And for purely amplified sound, in all honesty I don't think you can beat a solidbody. My Strat and Teles sound better amplified than any hollow body guitars I've ever plugged in, at least in my hands.
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A used Loar 700 at less than half the new retail price is definitely worth it.
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Originally Posted by Cunamara
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Will the OP publish a manifesto?
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This is something I finally realized about this issue that’s simplified things quite a bit for me:
The minor differences in sound/feel of our gear doesn’t mean much to the audience, but may to the player, which will inspire the performance, which the audience will notice.
it’s all about what inspires the player.
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As an amateur in the midst of a Covid pandemic, all of my playing is at home. I suspect this is true for the vast majority here. So what do you want to listen to for those hours of practice? The thump of plywood or the zing of wood? Doesn't matter because electric? Then why put up with size of a full hollow vs a semi? Or even a plank? For me it's the sound. A carved archtop sounds good.
As for those who are gigging on a regular basis and the argument of 'what the audience hears'.. other than them hearing something good and pleasing, why not worry about what you hear? You're still spending a lot more time in the woodshed than on the stage.
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Originally Posted by Spook410
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Originally Posted by Cunamara
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Originally Posted by John A.
The original question was 'are carved archtops worth it'. A question that seems to imply someone would be looking for what carved archtops do which is produce a more complex acoustic sound. I believe it's more than volume as (broad generalization) carved resonates differently for ply. However, I certainly get how ply and even planks make a good late night practice sound.
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
You make a good point about being able to get something amazing for under $10K. Less than a beater used car. Guitar players really are fortunate.
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Originally Posted by Spook410
No doubt any number of carved acoustic guitars are better as such for acoustic music than pretty much any plywood topped electric. But I don't agree that, say, an L5CES is a better electric guitar than, say, a 175. It's different, and I can certainly understand why some prefer it and why it costs more. But it's not better or more "complex". Just different.
As far as carved tops with floaters go, some sound good to me as electrics, but some sound kind of clanky and harsh to me. For the most part it's not my preferred sound (Johnny Smith and 60s KB, and Peter Bernstein being the obvious exceptions).
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Originally Posted by John A.
Grant Green, What is This Thing
Yesterday, 01:59 PM in Ear Training, Transcribing & Reading